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Our own Karlo Broussard has a new book that not only defends the doctrine of purgatory but explains why Christ’s teaching about purgatory is a key part of the Good News of salvation. He shares with us why purgatory is such good news for us.
Cy:
Karlo Broussard explains Purgatory, next on Focus.
Cy:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic answers podcasts for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. I have to admit, I don’t know you well, but just looking at you, I think you’re going to spend some time in Purgatory. I see that in your future. Maybe not all of you, but most of you, so you probably should know all about it.
Cy:
The thing is, we spend so much time kind of defending Purgatory as Catholics, especially Catholics here in the United States, that we often don’t get to the part where we start thinking about, wow, what is it like? What is Purgatory? And why is this good news? You know, Karlo says it’s good news. Get the good news about Purgatory. So we asked Karlo Broussard, the author of the brand new book, Purgatory is for Real, to come in and talk to us about Purgatory. And that’s what we did.
Cy:
And we’ll do that just a second. And before we get there, I want to remind you, subscribe to Focus on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever you listen so that you’ll be notified when new episodes become available. And please give us that review, possibly that five stars, if you’re feeling generous today. That helps to grow the podcast. Here’s Karlo on Purgatory.
Cy:
So Karlo, the doctrine of Purgatory gets a lot of challenge, primarily from Protestant brothers and sisters. And so we as Catholics often end up defending the doctrine of Purgatory, which I think does not leave us much time or head space or whatnot to explore the reality of Purgatory. We’re always saying, “Well, yeah, it’s in the Bible and Jesus taught it.” , But you say Purgatory is good news and we should reflect on the good news.
Karlo:
Amen to that. That’s the subtitle of my book, right? So the main title, Purgatory is for Real, that sort of emphasizes the apologetical approach of the book and the apologetics sections, apologetical sections. But the subtitle is, Good News About the Afterlife for Those Who Aren’t Perfect Yet. And I suppose that this aspect of the book can sort of be an apology for Purgatory. When I mean by that as a defense, in response to those Protestants who will say the doctrine of Purgatory is bad news. And so it’s sort of a response and saying, “No, it is good news. And here are the reasons why.” But also too, for us as Catholics, to be able to come to better appreciate what I argue in the book is an infallible truth, that we must assent to with firm and definitive ascent as Catholics. This is a doctrine of our faith that we must believe, and it is infallible. And so it’s important for us to meditate upon this reality that the church has taught us and that we know to be rooted and grounded in sacred scripture and sacred tradition and come to better appreciate it, and focus on the good news about it and why it is indeed good news.
Cy:
Yes. So that when it’s presented as bad news, I guess kind of the idea is, well, that means that Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t enough or that means that-
Karlo:
All the suffering involved.
Cy:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of gives a negative image of God. But you, in the book, you give three joyful kind of aspects of our doctrine of Purgatory.
Karlo:
Yeah. So what I do is I articulate three joyful truths that constitute, or make up the good news about Purgatory. So for example, number one, Purgatory is a doctrine that provides consolation for believers. So it consoles us as believers. And we’ll talk about that. Number two, Purgatory is bound up with joys that go beyond the joys of this world. Yes, as I do in my book, we affirm the suffering aspect of Purgatory. And I would argue, as I do in my book, that in no way takes away from the glory of God or the joy of Christianity. But we also, now I will say, as I do in my book, that I think some have overemphasized the suffering aspect of Purgatory, which has given rise, or which has eclipsed the truth, the joyful truths about Purgatory. And so that’s the point of these three joyful truths in the book, is to try and highlight these joyful aspects of Purgatory, while at the same time affirming the negative aspect, namely the suffering, right?
Karlo:
And so one of those joyful truths is that Purgatory itself is bound up with joys that go beyond the joys of this world. And so we’ll talk about that. And then the third joyful truth is that it actually inspires the pursuit of holiness. And the idea there is that once you know what Purgatory is, and what’s going on there, and like what the final purification is taken care of, and you come to realize that, wow, you can actually take care of that stuff in this life, well then that’s going to motivate you to engage in the pious actions in order to increase, and that in turn brings about an increase in holiness.
Cy:
Okay. So let’s just start with consolation, then. Why is the truth, the reality of Purgatory consoling to us?
Karlo:
Well, I think the answer there is that it consoles us believers who struggle with sin. Who among us goes a day without sinning in some way, right?
Cy:
Right, right. Yes, yes, yes.
Karlo:
It’s difficult to come by, right? So it might be over-watching over-binging and Netflix, or mindlessly scrolling through Facebook when you should be doing your job, right? Or talking to your wife or paying attention to your kids, and you’re stuck in your phone. Just minor things like that, right? That are in venal in nature. Don’t turn us away from God. They’re not mortal sins, but these are venial sins that can wound charity within our soul, right?
Cy:
Yes.
Karlo:
And so we’re all guilty of that almost every day of our lives, at some point in the day. Well, if there were no Purgatory, then we would, and if we die with such venial sins on our souls, the guilt of venial sins, then there would be no possible way for us to enter into the beatific vision. We would for the rest of our existence be definitively excluded from the beatific vision, which is the primary form of hell, right?
Cy:
Yeah, yeah.
Karlo:
The primary suffering of hell. So if no Purgatory, then us weak sinners, right, would have no chance in you know what. No chance in you know what to get to heaven.
Cy:
You wouldn’t have a snowball’s chance in that place. That’s because nothing that’s impure can enter heaven.
Karlo:
Enter heaven. And I talk about that in the book. Revelation 21:27, nothing of defilement can enter into the kingdom of heaven. Nothing unclean, morally speaking.
Cy:
Right. But it’s not just for myself. I mean, the fact is, I mean, when someone dies, I think, especially for Christians, there’s always, where did this person go? And some people we know, I know about Uncle Fred and-
Karlo:
I knew he loved Jesus.
Cy:
Yeah.
Karlo:
But.
Cy:
But Uncle Fred, man.
Karlo:
Yeah.
Cy:
So that it can be consoling in that regard, too. Not just that my impurities have a place where they can be processed out of me, but that Uncle Fred can.
Karlo:
Yeah, that’s right. Because as you mentioned, I know Uncle Fred loved Jesus and he died loving Jesus, but I know he had a temper and I know that he had some imperfections, but yet he died. If there were no Purgatory, well, then I in no way could be consoled that Uncle Fred entered in to the beatific vision. But that there is a Purgatory that provides consolation for me, knowing that my loved one, Uncle Fred, although loving Jesus, died imperfectly, and I can be consoled in knowing that he can eventually enter into the beatific vision by way of this final purification that we call Purgatory. So not only is it consoling for me, understanding myself to be weak and a sinner, but also consoling me knowing that my loved ones who are weak and sinners when they die, it doesn’t mean that they’re definitively excluded from the beatific vision that we call heaven.
Cy:
And then I suppose there’s the other side of that too, that Uncle Fred was always a jerk to me. And it bothers me to think he went straight to heaven. Do you know what I’m saying? Like, that seems unjust.
Karlo:
Or, well, yeah. Yeah, because-
Cy:
I mean, I know I’m a jerk for thinking that, but…
Karlo:
No, actually you’re onto something here, Cy, because this is one of the ways in which the doctrine of Purgatory consoles us, and that is with regard to our desire for justice. So just to give sort of maybe a more extreme example, in order to clarify or flesh this out, imagine a serial killer and a rapist, right? Who’s killed and raped hundreds of women throughout his life, and on his death bed, he converts and comes to the Lord Jesus.
Cy:
Okay, yes. That’s even worse than Uncle Fred. Yeah.
Karlo:
That’s right. Okay. Now on this scenario, you and I, as Christians would rejoice in his conversion because he died professing faith in Christ.
Cy:
Right.
Karlo:
Okay. But at the same time, I think we can imagine that we would feel a little bit uneasy thinking that, “Man, this individual, he’s done a lot of atrocious things in his life and there is a pain due to him. And then he just gets off scot-free?” Right? And there’s no administering of punishment for the wrongs that he’s committed in his life. So there would be, we can imagine a sense of a desire for justice to be served. Rejoicing in his conversion, but at the same time, desiring that he received what is due to him. Now, the doctrine of Purgatory provides consolation because justice will be served, if that serial killer and rapist did not experience the fervent charity on his death bed, right? And experiencing the intense sorrow for past sins sufficient enough to discharge the debt of temporal punishment due to sins. Well, then the reality of Purgatory and that final purification will take care of that. The suffering endured in the final purification will be the way by which the debt of temporal punishment for past sins is discharged. So the doctrine of Purgatory consoles us in so far as it can satisfy the desire for justice. We know justice will be served, and that’s an aspect of the doctrine of Purgatory.
Cy:
Okay. So are there more of these consoling points you’d like to go over, or would you like to move to the next one?
Karlo:
Yeah, just a few. So think about this. We know that the relationship with our loved ones can continue after death, even though they haven’t yet attained the beatific vision, right? So you might think, “Well, maybe they’ve died, but I can’t really have a continued relationship with them because I going to have to wait until they get into the beatific vision or something.” Right?
Cy:
I see.
Karlo:
With the souls in Purgatory, we can still have a relationship with them, even though they don’t have the beatific vision yet. And so the church teaches us of the relationship between the faithful on earth and the faithful suffering and the souls in Purgatory. And that allows for a continued relationship with them. It also consoles us believers, knowing that the souls in Purgatory can pray for us. And that constitutes a part of that continued relationship. Paragraph 958, I think it’s 958 in the catechism, 985. I’m going to have to go back and check that. My memory slipping me there. But I think it’s 958, where the catechism says, “Our prayers for them, souls in Purgatory, is capable, not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.” So the catechism is affirming that the souls in Purgatory can actually pray for us. And that provides consolation to know that we can have this continued relationship with them.
Cy:
- I just, I was looking at my notes here.
Karlo:
Yeah, but the reason why I’m messing up there, because I think I may have messed up numbers in the notes.
Cy:
Somewhere in the 900s you’re going to find this.
Karlo:
We’re going to have to fact check that one, right?
Cy:
Okay.
Karlo:
And then finally, it consoles believers in knowing that our prayers console our loved ones in Purgatory. Right? So I know that when I pray for the souls in Purgatory, that that’s going to contribute to a partial or full completion of their final purification.
Cy:
Oh, that’s beautiful. Yeah.
Karlo:
Removing those impediments to the beatific vision. And in as much as I know that, while I’m going to be consoled in knowing that that good is being attributed, being applied to them, right? So I rejoice in their good, I rejoice in the fact that they are being consoled. So their consolation, through my prayers, by way of my prayers, is consolation for me as well, because of the relationship of love. What is love? To will the good to the other. To will the good in such a way that I view the other as myself, such that when the other experiences good, it is as if I am experiencing the good itself with that person. Right? So the souls in Purgatory, who are having their impediments to heaven removed, through my prayers, that’s good for them. I love them insofar as I will good for them as I will myself. So when they experience good, I experienced it as if it’s my own good. And thus, that provides consolation.
Cy:
So the second kind of set of joys in the joy of the doctrine of Purgatory. You say it’s bound up with the joys beyond this world. I actually, this one I need some explanation on. What does that mean? It’s bound up with the joys beyond this world.
Karlo:
There are joys related to the experience of Purgatory that go beyond even the joys that we can experience here in this life. So for example, in this life, we do not nor can’t, well, we do not, ordinarily speaking, it’s possible you could, if Jesus appears to you in a vision, right? But ordinarily speaking, we do not have absolute assurance that heaven is our destiny. So this gets back to the Catholic Protestant conversation about the doctrine of eternal security, right? While the Catholic view is that it is possible for us to lose our salvation. And we can’t have, ordinarily speaking, infallible knowledge that I will finally persevere and heaven be my destiny. The only way I could have such knowledge is if Jesus appears to me and tells me, “I’m going to give you that grace.” Right?
Cy:
Yeah. Right.
Karlo:
But ordinarily, we don’t have that. So we don’t have this absolute assurance that heaven is our destiny. But in Purgatory, the souls present there do have absolute assurance that heaven is their destiny. And this is why we don’t believe it’s a second chance. Purgatory is not a second chance. It is not possible for the souls in Purgatory to end up in hell. Heaven is their destiny. Their eternity is secured, right? And that is a source of great joy that they can have but we cannot have in this life, right?
Karlo:
Another joy, a keen appreciation for God’s order of justice, right? So what is the order of justice? The order of justice refers to God’s design and plan for human behavior, how we ought to behave and act in relation to each other, and even in relation to him, such that when we act contrary to that design, there’s a certain pain due to us, right? Because God has designed us in such a way that pleasure is associated with good behavior, pain is associated with bad behavior, right? So whenever we engage in bad behavior and go contrary to God’s order, there’s a certain pain due to us because I took pleasure where I ought not to have taken pleasure, pain should have been there. Right?
Karlo:
And so God’s order of justice is that order, is that design, such that when I engage in sinful behavior, there is punishment due to me, right? Now, on this side of the veil, we can’t quite understand or see with clarity this order of justice, such that if God is punishing me, I’m like the little child at times thinking, “What’s going on here? I don’t deserve this.” Right?
Cy:
Right. Yeah.
Karlo:
But on the other side of the veil, because the souls in Purgatory have received their particular judgment, they have a keen awareness of God’s order of justice and seeing that whatever suffering they endure in this final purification is perfectly due to them. And even the souls, in seeing that perfect order of justice and the manifestation of God’s wisdom, they can rejoice in that justice.
Cy:
Is that so? Wow.
Karlo:
And that’s a source of joy that they have that we don’t have. We can go further, Cy. The intense love for God and neighbor in this life? Guess what? I love you, Cy. You’re a great guy. We love each other, but we get distracted, right? In our love for each other and our love for neighbor. Even our love for God. I love God, but you know what? I get distracted a lot in this life and it takes my mind and my heart off of directing it to God sometimes, right?
Cy:
Yes. Right, exactly.
Karlo:
Well, the souls in Purgatory.
Cy:
No.
Karlo:
They have none of those distractions. So they are totally focused on loving God, totally focused on love of neighbor, nothing to distract that love. Right? So they’re going to, and because of less distractions, the intensity increases. So they’re going to have more intense love for God and neighbor than we have in this life.
Karlo:
And finally, once again, they are assured of their final salvation. So they know they are going to be saved. And what’s going on in this final purification, they are aware and have a keen awareness of God’s love for them. And that, I think, is the final joy that goes beyond this world. We know God loves us in this life, but in the afterlife, the souls in Purgatory, they’re going to have a greater awareness of God’s love for them because they’re going to have their particular judgment, they’re assured of their eternal destiny, they see the divine justice, but they also see the mercy that this final purification is. Getting back to what we talked about earlier, realizing how weak we are, and God, as sinful as I am, I’m still able to die in friendship with you and to be purified before entering into the beatific vision and seeing that final purification as good news, as the mercy of God being applied to us, as the love of God being manifest. Because God has done everything he could possibly do. Right?
Cy:
Yep.
Karlo:
Well, I’ll retract that a little bit. But God has-
Cy:
Really?
Karlo:
Well, because God could give everyone the grace [crosstalk 00:19:36].
Cy:
Oh, I see what you mean.
Karlo:
Virgin Mary.
Cy:
But in his wisdom, he knows just the right amount to give.
Karlo:
Beautiful. In his wisdom, he knew exactly what to do in order to get me to the beatific vision.
Cy:
I learned that from you, Karlo.
Karlo:
Yeah, good job. So these are joys that are bound up with the reality of Purgatory that go beyond this world. These are joys that we can’t really have. Either we can’t have it in this life, or we can’t have it to the degree that the souls will have it in the next.
Cy:
Okay. So one joyful truth about Purgatory, the consolation it provides us as believers.
Karlo:
Yeah.
Cy:
The second, it’s the joy of the joys beyond this world.
Karlo:
Bound up with joys that go beyond the joys of this world.
Cy:
The final one, I actually do understand this one, I think. I think this, even just when you wrote it, it’s clear to me. It inspires the pursuit of holiness. Because we see our salvation as a process, I think. As part of, that if this purification is needed after life, that it’s connected to my purification in this life.
Karlo:
The purification can go on now, can be accomplished now. At least we can be working on that purification, right? Moved by God’s grace. So we could look at it in the sense that, understanding what’s getting taken of in the final purification that we call Purgatory, the discharge of the debt of temporal punishment remaining for sin, the purging of unhealthy attachments, right? The remission of the guilt of venial sin. Well, these are all things that can take place in this life. The purpose of the final purification is to remove these impediments to heaven, if they have not already been removed at the end of this life. And so what are the ways in which we can take care of these things in this life? Well, let’s take the remission of the guilt of venial sin. Daily examine of our conscience, right?
Cy:
Okay, yeah.
Karlo:
Keeping our activity and sin at the forefront of our mind, trying to avoid sin. When we examine our day, and if we realize we’ve fallen short of the Christian standard of living and we’ve sinned, then we ask God for forgiveness, right? Working on remitting that guilt of venial sin, which we can do apart from the sacrament of reconciliation. Now, granted it’s important that we take venial sins to the sacrament of reconciliation as well, to not only receive the guilt of venial sin removed, but even if we’ve already confessed venial sins privately to have the guilt of venial sin removed, even if we take it to confession, that’s an act of humility which can be ordered toward discharging the debt of temporal punishment remaining for the past sin, by way of that act of humility and also receiving the graces that we need through the sacrament in order to overcome sin, okay?
Karlo:
The purging of unhealthy attachments. Well, that can be done through the sacraments, both the Eucharist and the sacrament of reconciliation. So frequenting the sacraments of the Eucharist and reconciliation in order to purge unhealthy attachments to created goods. But I can also do that by pious actions, of alms giving. If I’m inordinately attached to money, well then alms giving is a way to counteract that. Fasting, if I’m inordinately attached to food and drink and overindulgence thereof, then fasting is going to allow me to reorder that attachment from unhealthy to healthy, right? And so these are pious actions that the knowledge of the reality of Purgatory motivates me and inspires me to engage in these pious activities in this life in order to purge the unhealthy attachments to remit the guilt of venial sin, and to discharge the debt of temporal punishment due for past sins, whether it be venial or mortal. And that in turn is going to help me grow in holiness.
Karlo:
When your arm’s giving out of charity, when you’re praying out of charity, when you’re fasting out of charity, when you’re participating in the Eucharist and the sacrament of reconciliation moved by charity, those are all the things that saints do, right?
Cy:
Right. Yes.
Karlo:
And so the doctrine of Purgatory can inspire us to be saints. And hopefully, the motivation is to pursue such holiness with such fervency that we could die with such a fervent degree of charity that no final purification would remain. And that, the church teaches, is a possibility, as the catechism points out in paragraph 1472.
Cy:
Yeah. Sometimes people say, “I just want to make it to Purgatory.” But that’s really not a fully Catholic view. Because you don’t have to. You can be holy in this life.
Karlo:
Amen, Cy. And I’m so glad you brought that up because I point this out in my conclusion in the book. In order, as good as the doctrine of Purgatory is, because it is good news. It’s God’s love, it’s God’s mercy, right? At the same time, it’s important that we see it within its proper context. The end goal is heaven, right? And the wise man, as Aquinas says, recognizes the end and governs his life in order to achieve that end. Heaven is the end goal. And that is what we should be desiring because it is perfect union with God, the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. So our desire and our motivations should be to die and immediately go to heaven. But thanks be to God, that if I die with any of these impediments due to my weaknesses and my shortcomings, we have the doctrine of Purgatory. We have this final purification to remove such impediments so that I can enter into the glory of the beatific vision.
Cy:
I feel like I’m so happy that Purgatory is for real, because it represents good news about the afterlife for those who aren’t perfect yet.
Karlo:
Man, that would make for a great subtitle of a book, wouldn’t it?
Cy:
Oh, that’s it.
Karlo:
Or a title.
Cy:
Karlo’s book is available now. Purgatory is for Real: Good News About the Afterlife for Those Who Aren’t Perfect Yet. Thanks Karlo.
Karlo:
Hey, thank you, Cy.
Cy:
The older I get, the more I get those days where someone says, “Did you know so-and-so died? So-and-so passed away.” And you always get that feeling of, there’s a kind of, I don’t know, an upset that comes with every one, where part of you wonders, where are they now? Where has this person gone? And the beauty of the doctrine of Purgatory, the teaching on Purgatory that comes from Jesus himself is this idea that, well, you know what? They’ve gone to a God who loves them and has them in his tender care now. They’re being ministered to, whether it’s by angels, by saints, by Jesus himself. We don’t know exactly what is happening, but we know that the context is a context of love and generosity, one that’s getting that person ready for the fullness glory. I think that’s wonderful, good news. And I’m always happy to be reminded of it when a person passes. And it also gives us the opportunity to do that wonderful act of charity that we should do constantly, pray for the dead. Pray for the dead.
Cy:
Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoy Focus. If you want to communicate with us, send us an email to our email address, focus@catholic.com, focus@catholic.com. We’ve been getting more and more notes about possible future episodes. If you’ve got an idea, we’d love to get it from you. And also, like and subscribe. You see how I dramatically slowed down there, so you’d listen? Like and subscribe. You’re watching on YouTube right now, or at least if you are watching on YouTube, you see the Like and Subscribe buttons, go ahead and click them. That helps us to grow this podcast. We’re also very grateful for those of you who support us financially, so we can continue to do this. If you’d like to support us financially, givecatholic.com is our website, givecatholic.com. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. We’ll see you next time, god willing, right here on Catholic Answers, Focus.