In this video, Joe Heschmeyer responds to a question about whether saints can overtake God’s role in a Catholic’s life. He offers a thoughtful answer grounded in both Scripture and Church history, clarifying what the Church really teaches about the communion of saints, in a conversation hosted by Cy Kellett.
Transcript:
Caller: The reason I’m not a Papist. I have come from a Protestant background, but I was not born in the Church. The reason I’m not a Papist centers around the use of the word “tradition.” I think it’s a good way to start. I feel as though many traditions are not rooted in Scripture. I’ve come to think of this term as a catch-all. For example, praying to the saints or speaking with the priests as an intermediary.
I wonder why we don’t see examples of Old Testament Jewish people praying to Elijah or New Testament Christians praying to Paul. Instead, we see examples of Paul warning against glorifying anyone other than Christ, God, or the Holy Spirit. I know that Catholics look at the Scripture in Revelation where it appears that the prayers of those in heaven continue, and I don’t necessarily have an argument against that. But I’m using other examples of biblical prayers and even our own earthly prayers. We are always directing them to God, even when we intercede for others.
In other words, no one ever prays to another person on earth because that is an honor bestowed only to a holy God. I’ve heard quite a few Catholics; I went and tried some different small groups, been to Catholic churches, and tried to expose myself. But they find a deep comfort in this, the saints and the patronage. I fear that it may be a stumbling block that gives certain Catholics a form of comfort and maybe even at the potential expense of intimacy with Jesus Christ as their Savior or impresses upon us a false notion that God is not infinitely compassionate and accessible and not the only necessary object of our affection.
Is this a topic often discussed in Catholic churches?
Joe: I love the way you phrased all of that. That was very well thought out. I want to actually start, if I may, by challenging one of the underlying assumptions to that, which is about what we mean by the word “prayer.” So if prayer is the bestowing of divine honor, which is actually worship, a different biblical concept, then you’re right, it should only be done to God because it would be idolatry to do that for anyone else.
You can see this very clearly by looking. I actually talk about this in my book. The Eucharist is really Jesus as well. So if you stick on the line, I’ll make sure you get a copy as well. In the first century, at the time of Jesus, as you see from Jesus’s conversation with the Samaritan woman, the Samaritans believed that worship was something that was done on Mount Gerizim, and the Jews believed worship was something that was done in the temple in Jerusalem. But neither believed you could only pray in those two places. You could pray anywhere.
It is a mistake to think you had to go to the priest to pray. That’s not true. What you would go to the priest for was worship, not prayer. So you see the Pharisee and the tax collector both going to the temple to pray. You see in Matthew 6, Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for praying on the street corners so they’ll be seen by men. You see various people from the highest to the lowest praying all over the place.
So you could pray anywhere. But worship was something distinct from prayer and offered only to God and something offered in the temple. So what is that? It’s this bestowing of divine honor and was particularly tied to the idea of sacrifice. If you just make talking to, which is, you know, prayer is asking for something, and we use it more broadly for any kind of communication with God. If you think of communication and talking to someone as the same thing as worship, well, that would be a disaster because that would not only mean we couldn’t pray to the saints; it would mean we couldn’t ask one another for help, you know, for helping us.
What we find in the New Testament is Christians going to one another for prayers. We find them going to one another even for the forgiveness of sins. “Confess your sins to one another.” You know, all of that is baked into Christianity. Then if that’s true, then we say, okay, well, if prayer is talking to someone. In other words, if you’re going to object to prayer to the saints, it seems that you have to have a definition of what prayer is.
If your definition of prayer is worship, that’s unbiblical and untrue. If your definition is communication, well, communication is clearly allowed. You can see in the Book of Revelation a clear distinction. Throughout the entire book of Revelation, St. John is talking to the angel. Clearly, okay, twice he goes to give divine honor to the angel by bowing down in worship, and he’s rebuked for it. So worship is absolutely forbidden to anyone other than God. Prayer communication is absolutely biblical. We find it right there in the Book of Revelation.
If you think about John’s relationship to the angel, you also find it. I know this book is no longer in Protestant Bibles, but in Second Maccabees 15, Judas Maccabeus has a vision where he is speaking to Onias, the deceased high priest, and Jeremiah. We do find this Jewish practice of praying to saints, but it’s not in Protestant Bibles anymore. That’s because Protestants took the books out of the Bible, not because the Bible doesn’t teach those things.
So much more could be said, but hopefully that gives a little bit of a framework. Is that helpful for you, man?
Caller: I have a follow-up. I think I’m… I think for… Let me start with just the use of the word “prayer.” I’m wondering if there’s a danger of conflation of those terms because ultimately my concern is that, you know, of course affection is taken away from God or intimacy.
Joe: I’m so sorry, forgot about that dimension.
Caller: Yeah. No, with intimacy, it’s built with other entities that are given. I mean, you could say not… You could say technically no, but I think there is a pseudo-divine status surrounding a lot of people.
Joe: Okay, let me answer that. I know we’re coming up near the break. I want to make sure I get your question answered. It is possible someone could have a disordered relationship to a saint where they go to the saint because they’re afraid to go to God. You can think about that problem in one of two ways now, depending on why they feel alienated from God. That’s the underlying issue.
I’ve never met anyone who was close to God and then got close to the saints and then became alienated from God. I have known people who felt distant from God because they felt very unworthy to be in the presence of His holiness. The saints were kind of an onboarding ramp to help them to grow in relationship to God, where maybe they felt more comfortable for a while in talking to another sinner who is now holy because that felt more accessible, in the same way that maybe a toddler can understand some things from looking at a slightly older child precisely because of the limitations.
But this is again pretty biblical. Hebrews 11 gives a hall of fame of those who’ve lived by faith to show us what it looks like to live the life of faith. So by no means should we allow the saints to draw us away from God. But it may be that someone who feels alienated from God, who does not appreciate the intimacy to which they’ve been called by God, is more immediately able to feel comfortable going to another Christian here on earth or another Christian in heaven. That can be a starting point for leading them into the intimacy with the Father, with the Son, with the Holy Spirit that we’re all invited to.
But those are just… It’s a matter of like how you judge someone who’s still on a journey.
Cy: Hey, Seth. I’d like to send you a book we have called *The Saints Pray for You*. If you’d like it, it’s by Dr. Karlo Broussard. *The Saints Pray for You*. Just hang on the line, give us an address to send it to you, and we’ll send it off.