Featured Guests: Matthew Leonard, Steve Ray, Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Karlo Broussard
Featured Questions:
- 01:13 – What is the easiest way to explain to a Protestant that a Christian can lose his or her salvation? – Jimmy Akin
- 06:43 – How do we communicate that God will take care of us if we give ourselves to God? – Steve Ray
- 09:50 – Do Catholics believe Jesus can heal traumas immediately or is healing time necessary? – Tim Staples
- 14:31 – Why do we suffer from the sin of Adam and Eve if we have the same free will they had? – Fr. Joseph D. Fessio, S.J.
- 16:56 – How can we talk to people who want to remove the gender pronouns without alienating them? – Jimmy Akin
- 21:48 – What is a practical approach to offering up your cross? – Matthew Leonard
- 23:25 – Will we see our loved ones in the afterlife? – Karlo Broussard
Transcript:
Hi, I’m Cy Kellett. Thanks for joining us today. This is where we make one of the longest running Catholic radio programs in the world, Catholic Answers Live, and this is our opportunity to take you into the studio with us as our apologists and guests answer listener questions about the life and faith of the Catholic Church. On today’s episode, Catholic answers apologists, Karlo Broussard, Jimmy Akin, and Tim Staples, and a great lineup of guests including Matthew Leonard, Steve Ray, and Father Joseph Fessio.
Callers challenge them with a wide range of questions. Can a Christian lose salvation? How can we talk to people who want to remove gender pronouns? Do Catholics believe Jesus could heal trauma immediately or is healing time necessary? Why do we suffer because of the sin of Adam and Eve? And much more. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show.
Hey, Jimmy, I was just wondering, what do you think is the easiest way to explain to our Protestant brothers and sisters that a Christian can in fact lose their salvation?
Well, I’d say that in many cases it’s not necessary to explain that to our Protestant brothers and sisters because many of them believe it. If you look at various groups of Protestants, historically Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, Wesleyans, and many Anglicans. There are lots of Protestants who actually believe that it is possible to lose salvation, and if you did a global survey of Protestants I think actually most of them believe that you can lose salvation.
But, there are certain strands in Protestant thought that don’t. Those strands are principally Calvinists and those who have been influenced by Calvinists. So that would be like people in the Presbyterian movement, some Baptists, not all baptists, some Anglicans, not all Anglicans. Among those, you do have some different views of how it’s not possible and why it’s not possible to lose salvation, but for them you would need to approach the subject.
I mean, I can address it in a kind of abstract way, but are there particular people that you’re engaged in dialogue with?
Yeah, I was speaking to a reformed Baptist [crosstalk 00:02:45] claimed to be.
Okay. Well, a reformed Baptist is going to be most impressed by scripture. So obviously, one way or another, what you’re going to want to do is ground your claims in scripture. Now, what you might want to do is present an initial case of, here are some verses that make it sound like you can lose your salvation, and there are a variety of those. Jesus notes, for example, that even though Judas–this is in the gospel of John–even though Judas was one of those given to him by the Father, Judas ended up being lost. So it would indicate it was possible for him to not be saved, to lose his salvation.
If you look at a St. Peter’s epistles, he talks about how it would be better never to have known the way then to know it and abandon it. If you look at St Paul in 1st Corinthians 15, he talks about how the Corinthians are doing well unless they believed in vain, and have abandoned their belief, for example, in the resurrection.
So there are a variety of passages, obviously. One that’s kind of important here is in 1st Corinthians 6 where Paul is, again, he’s talking to Christians, he’s talking to the Corinthians and he says, “Don’t be deceived. If you engage in immoral behavior, you’re not going to inherit the kingdom,” and so there are a variety of passages. And there are going to be answers that your friend is likely to propose to any of these, but you could kind of get a foot in the door by saying, well, look, can we at least agree that if you look at this passage on its own, it kind of does sound like you can lose your salvation. I mean, we can acknowledge that there are other passages that if you took them on their own, it would sound like, oh no, you’re totally secure, but then there are these other passages. You look at them on their own, sounds like, no, you’re not totally secure. You could lose your salvation, and if we can agree on those two points, then the question becomes which set of passages?
We need to take both of them into account. So, which set of passages is more likely to be taken in a straightforward way and which need to be understood with some nuance, and that kind of gets you into the discussion in a way that your friend may be prepared to acknowledge there’s some legitimacy to the view that you can lose your salvation.
Also, you could point out, you know, this is something that a lot of Christians actually believe, including globally, most Protestants think that you can, that’s how they read the Bible. That’s something that you might, if you’re a reformed Baptist, you might want to think about, that most Christians and even most Protestants don’t agree with you on this. So that’s something that should give you some pause.
Then you can find out are there specific verses that your friend is having trouble looking at it in another light. I mean, what are the verses that he’s going to use to support his position, and then you can look at those verses with him and say, “Okay, here’s another way of looking at it. You may need to do some research, but that’s the basic approach, and if there are specific objections conceptually, like if he thinks, “Oh, well, we can’t lose our salvation because all of our sins have been forgiven past, present, and future.” Well, where does it say that in the Bible? I mean, you want to tackle that conceptual issue, because it never says that. It never says God forgives all our sins, past, present, and future.
It does say things like Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, but that doesn’t mean all of our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven from the foundation of the world. Because if it did, we would be born saved. We wouldn’t need to get saved. So obviously regardless of what Jesus did and when in history it applies to, it has to be applied to us at some moment in time.
How do we communicate the reality of you really can give your life to God? He really is there and he really will take care of you.
Well, one of the disadvantages that many of us have is our own fathers. A lot of times people write to me and they’ll say that they have this problem with God. They want to give their lives to God, that they just don’t trust them. They don’t know what he’s … They just have this bad attitude or thinking of God as an old man just waiting to smack them down for every little thing they do.
You know, I had the advantage of having a wonderful father who was very forgiving, always loving. He just spent his time with us, read us stories. So it was easy for me when it came time to give my life to God, I was giving my life to God, seeing him kind of as my own Dad, who I trusted completely and I loved my Dad.
So, in a sense, we look to God, our father, the way we look to our earthly father. If we had horrible fathers it’s very difficult to be able to trust a heavenly father and to love him and say, “I’m going to give my life to you.” Sometimes we have to deal with our earthly father and the whole unfortunate situation. I, on the other hand, had a very easy time saying, “I’m going to give my life to you,” because I had no problem saying that to my own Dad, even though at this moment I was a rebellious kid. You know, I was stubborn about it.
But my Dad used to say to me all the time, “Steve, I am going to give you a challenge. Try to outgive God. See what happens if you try to outgive him.” If you give your life to him, you give your time, your money, your energy, all of what you are, give it to him, even if it’s just a matter of money. See if you can ever out give him. My Dad was a good example, generous to a fault. He would give somebody his last dollar. I watched him do it.
My Dad would get two ice cream cones at the ice cream store and he’d go sit in the alley next to a poor man who’s sitting on the ground and he’d say, “Come with me Stevie,” when I was a little boy. He’d hand the ice cream to the man and say, would you like this? The man says, “I’m hungry. Yes, thank you.” My Dad says, “You’re welcome, and let me tell you about Jesus while you enjoy that ice cream.”
So I had a Dad that always was an example of generosity and living a Christian life, so it was easy for me. So I know it’s not easy for everybody. It wasn’t always easy. At that moment in time The Holy Spirit gave me the grace. But my Dad also used to say, “A man is no fool to give up what he cannot keep to gain that which he can never lose.” I can’t keep my own life. I can’t keep my own money, and even if I make a, say, a will, that somebody is going to get all my money when I die. I’m not really giving that to them, am I? Because I don’t own it anymore anyway. Once I die, it’s no longer mine. I realize that I’m no fool to give away things that I can never keep, money, family, relationships, even my own self. I cannot keep that forever. It’s already God’s. I’m not in charge of any of this, so I’m no fool to give away what I cannot keep to gain that which I can never lose.
In this clip, a caller wants to know if Catholics believe Jesus can heal traumas immediately or is healing time necessary?
God can heal anything and anyone, and instantaneously if he so chooses, but we see even with physical healings, right? Like in Mark Chapter 8, right around verse 24, remember the blind man who Jesus heals and the blind man says, “I see men like trees walking,” and then Jesus prays again. So there he wasn’t just instantaneously healed completely. There was a process even there with a physical healing. We see in John Chapter 11, remember when Lazarus, Jesus’ friend died? Jesus wept. The shortest verse in the New Testament, right? In John 11. Jesus wept.
Jesus was fully man, and as such he grieved. He wept. So while God theoretically can heal things instantaneously, the fact is we need … Remember, Star Trek. Yes, I confess I am a Trekkie from way back. But, you remember that movie, which one was it were Spock’s brother, you know, tries to … is that number … I can’t remember which number now, but one of the Star Trek movies Spock’s brother tries to heal everybody’s pain and he’s in search for God and he comes to find out the God he finds was actually a scam. He wasn’t really God, but the whole movie actually, in rare form, Star Trek really promotes the idea that there is actually a true God. Even captain Kirk says, “The one true God is sufficient for us.” Anyway.
I think that might be the undiscovered country, number six.
Nope, that’s not six. Six is my favorite, my friend. That is not six. I think it’s five. I think it is five, because it’s right after the crazy whale one. That was number four. Yes.
The crazy whale one.
It was The Final Frontier. Number five, I believe. But at any rate, here’s the bottom line. There’s a great scene in there because Spock’s brother has this false message that I can take away your pain immediately. And Kirk has it. There’s a great line in there where Kirk says, “I don’t want to have my pain taken away. I need my pain,” right? It’s part of our existence.
Now, you know, I wouldn’t want to go that far because ultimately all pain is going to be taken away. Revelation 22:4. “It’s not our end.” But there’s a profound truth there. Yes, we need the healing that comes given our fallen state, my friend, we need the cross. We need the pain in order for us to attain to salvation. This is a part of the gospel that, you know, a lot of folks don’t like so much, right? And yet it’s profoundly true. Jesus said in Luke 9:23. “Unless you take up your cross daily and follow me, you cannot be my disciple.” Sin has real repercussions that must be atoned for. That involves not only Jesus Christ taking away, or paying the price so that we can, you know, obtain everlasting life, but it also means real time allowing what Christ did on the cross to penetrate into our being and transform us from the inside out so that we can be healed.
So what God says to us is kind of like what Kirk says, only he’s saying it to us. You need your pain. So I have to step back, and I have to, you know, just like with his son, there was a father 2000 years ago who had to watch his beloved son die, Jesus Christ, because that’s the reality. The nature of sin demands that sacrifice. Well, the nature of sin demands sacrifices in our lives as well so that we can be healed. God, you know, this stuff is real and God wants us to be healed.
Not superficially. Hey, he could put a bandaid over it. He could say, “Bam,” but there would be something lost there as well. There’s a depth to the healing that God wills for us that requires the pain. I hope that, does that help you at all?
We don’t have Josiah with us.
Oh, did we lose Josiah?
Josiah, are you there? Did that help you?
No, that definitely helped me very much. Thank you.
All right. God bless you. Thanks for your question.
And I thought that I would be better at the Star Trek Canon, because you’re better at the biblical Canon. But you’re right, it was The Final Frontier, number five.
Yes.
In the beginning, [inaudible 00:14:34] Genesis when Adam and Eve sin and they were thrown out of Eden, and why do we suffer their sin? They had free will to obey and they disobey, and we have freewill to do God’s will. Why do we suffer their sin?
Albert, that’s not only a good question, but it’s one that great theologians have wrestled with over the centuries and there is not clarity on the answer. The catechism of the Catholic Church gives a good solid answer, but it’s also a little vague. Here’s what we know from the church teaching for sure, that God created us with the intention that we will live with him living his life forever, and that our first parents sinned and turned away from that invitation and the effects of that sin have come down to us even though we ourselves have not personally sinned.
Our personal sins are not the same thing as the original sin, but we do suffer the consequences. Let me give you an example. I’m glad that you talk to your daughter about these things, but there’s some daughters, some children who don’t have two parents or even one parent. They’re orphans. They’re brought up in a gang or they’re brought up in the inner city in poverty. And are those children suffering from the sins of their parents? Yes, they are.
Whereas on the other hand, I hope you and your wife loving each other, having that child, that you get that child in an environment which helps that child be a better person. The child can say, “Well, gosh,” whose parents are no longer … they’re divorced and not living together and she’s got a stepfather who beats her, and why do I have to suffer this? Why am I suffering this? I didn’t commit any sin. The answer is God gives us freedom, All right, but our freedom affects not just ourselves. It affects our society and those who come after us.
So, why do we have to suffer the effects of the sin of our first parents? A first attempt at an answer would be because every child suffers from the sins of the parents.
I’ve had a couple of situations at work recently with the rising so called gender revolution of people wanting to remove the gender pronouns. He and she or not identifying as a male or female, but as nonbinary. What’s a way we can counter this argument and assert the place of man and woman in society, but not lose the person along the way, especially toward the nonreligious background because people are kind of rooted in on this.
Well, I would say a couple things, and what I would say would depend on who I’m talking to, but assuming I’m talking to somebody about this who is coming from a secular nonreligious background, then I’m not going to invoke the fact that God made us male and female. I mean he did, and if I’m talking to a religious person, you bet I’m going to bring that out.
But, if I’m talking to a secular person who doesn’t believe that, then I would say this: why do you think we should not use the pronouns that have grown up historically in our language for the genders that we biologically are, because it’s clear biologically we are one or another. There are a few rare cases where someone is born with a physical abnormality, but the vast majority of times everyone is clearly physically one gender or the other. As a result of that, there are practical realities in life that have led us to develop pronouns for those two different genders. So why should we suddenly refuse to use these terms that have proven to be so practical for us in the past?
Now they may say, and I suspect they’re likely to say something about compassion, that, well, there are some people today who feel like they’re not entirely comfortable with what their biological gender is, and so they have, they want to be identified in some other way and it’s out of compassion to them. Well, compassion is a great thing. It can sometimes be misdirected, such as if you lead someone away from what they really are so that you’re encouraging them to fantasize about something that’s not real, that’s a separate issue that I probably wouldn’t go into with a totally secular person here.
But, what I would go into with a secular person to say, “Okay, so where’s the limit?” Because if you want to say we need to have a multiplicity of pronouns for all kinds of different combinations it’s gonna result in a situation where you’ve got to do lots of surgery and retraining on the English language and how many people are we actually talking about here? Because the number of people who don’t want to be referred to as he or she frankly is tiny, tiny, tiny, small. So you’re kind of basing policy or proposed linguistic policy on a tiny number of cases. And there’s a cost benefit question here.
You can’t say, oh, well, someone might get their feelings hurt if we don’t refer to them with the pronoun they want. Well, someone’s always gonna get their feelings hurt no matter what you do, because you just can’t avoid that. People get their feelings hurt, and there’s a question of how far is it reasonable to go out of your way to try to avoid that. And while there’s kind of a current cultural fad in this direction, the truth is it’s going to be a fad linguistically. We went through the same thing back in the late 60s where there was an attempt to remove gendered pronouns from the language, and it didn’t work because the fact is he and she are useful and they reasserted themselves with time.
Now, language can and does change. There are some gender inclusive things that got introduced into the language like firefighter instead of firemen, mail carrier instead of mailman. So, you know, there are shifts, but the shifts that survived were ones that kind of made some sense. When you have female fireman, it’s okay to say firefighter. When you have female male men, it’s okay to say mail carrier. But ultimately if you try to get away from the biological reality of gender, you’re going to not succeed.
Most of the time when people try these trendy new things with language they almost never last in the longterm and they’re just linguistic fads. We’ve seen this before in English. That’s what’s going to happen now. If you just think about the practicalities of this, you can see why this is going to be a self-limiting phenomenon.
My question pertains to redemptive suffering. I understand theology behind it, but you know, I’m always looking for advice on how to live that practically, you know? Yeah, just any advice you guys could give on that?
Yeah. A couple of things I would suggest. I mean, one thing is you just gotta you have to get into the habit of almost making it a reflex. When something happens, you offer it back to the Lord. You just give it back to him, and that’s something that develops over time. I think that one of the ways you kinda get to that point is by choosing, even during non lenten times or even an advent. We do some penance then too, but during the rest of the year, pick some small penances that you can just continue to do and make them a part of your day.
Maybe it’s at the end of a shower and you turn off the hot water a little bit. You say Hail Mary. You just endure a little bit of suffering, whatever it might be. Maybe you’re praying a rosary and while you’re praying the rosary, this is something I’m giving away my secrets here, but this is something I do sometimes, especially when I’m praying the sorrowful mysteries, I’ll kind of, you know, maybe dig my thumb nail a little bit into my hand just to remind me.
It kind of keeps me in the moment of what it is that I’m praying about, but it’s starting to develop almost a habit of suffering. That sounds kind of weird, I know, but it brings it to mind all the time so that when something does happen, you are like with Cy with his car getting smashed outside, that his immediate response is to offer that back to God. It’s not to go into a rage or whatever else. It’s a reflex. It’s like a muscle that you have to train over time, John.
In this segment, a caller seeks advice for a friend who was concerned that she won’t see loved ones in the afterlife.
You know when you get in heaven, the Church teaches that we will not only experience happiness by virtue of our knowledge and communion with God, but also our knowledge and our communion with the mystical body of Christ, with other members of the mystical body of Christ, and we will have … currently the blessed in heaven don’t have their bodies yet, but they have an awareness and a knowledge given to them by God of who is present among the blessed in heaven.
But when we get our glorified bodies back, we will actually see the other members of the mystical body of Christ, those dwelling and the new heaven and the new earth with us. We will recognize them. We will remember them from our relationships here in this life. So this is something that you can continue to share with your friend and saying, there will be knowledge of others. We will know who is there. We will communicate with them by the graces and the power that God gives us, and we will have our glorified bodies where we will see each other, including our blessed Lord, including the blessed mother. See each other in all of their glorified bodies, recognizing each other.
And from that intimate knowledge and communion with other saints in the new heaven and the new earth, Teresa, we’re going to experience happiness. The happiness flowing not only from the beatific vision of God, but also the happiness flowing from this communion of this relationship with other members of the mystical body of Christ. Does that make sense?
Yeeha.
I guess it does make sense.
Yes, ma’am. Thank you so much.
time here, so.
Thank you very much, Teresa, for that, calling for that question. And you mentioned a new heaven and a new earth.
Yes.
And we’re to take that literally, that there will be a new earth?
That’s right. Well, the church teaches definitively. For example, in paragraphs 10:42 to 10:44 the catechism is affirming a constant teaching of the church, which is also found in sacred scripture that there will be a new heaven and the new earth. The catechism states how the universe will be renewed. There will be a new universe. The universe will be transformed as the catechism states in paragraph 1046 to 47 within that area, so the material universe will continue to exist, but it will be transfigured, you might say, transformed taking on new characteristics akin to the new characteristics that we’re going to get in our glorified body, such as incorruptibility.
There will be no more decay in the material universe, so we will have physical bodies with new qualities and properties and characteristics. By the grace of God it’s a miracle, and even the physical universe will continue to exist with new characteristics, new properties according to church teaching, but also according to sacred scripture as well. For example, St. Paul writes about in Romans 8:18 through 25 where the creation will no longer be subject to decay, and of course in revelation chapter 21, you know, Christ is talking about behold, I make all things new, and St John is talking about a heaven and a new earth.
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