In this episode, Cy Kellett, Joe Heschmeyer, and Chris Check respond to a claim from William Lane Craig, examining whether Protestants are truly the main focus of Catholic evangelization. Drawing on Church history and modern-day realities, they explain the broader mission of the Church and why the call to conversion goes far beyond just Protestantism.
Transcript:
Cy: William Lane Craig, in the article on the Gospel Coalition, says many Catholic apologists seem to be more exercised and worked up about winning Protestants to Catholicism than they are about winning non-Christians to Christ. And that seems to me a misplaced emphasis. He is telling himself a fantasy story right there. Protestantism is, from its founding, an effort to get Catholics not to be Catholic. That is what Protestantism is. Protestantism, right now, its primary mission fields all over the world are in Catholic countries among Catholic populations. William Lane Craig is lying to himself.
Chris: He’s a guy who… That’s delusional. He is a guy who is very, very bright and, as a consequence, is blinded by his brightness. And there’s just a lack of docility there. Well, a lack of conversion of heart.
Cy: We want every single person in the Catholic Church. We make no bones about that. The only reason we want that is because it is an institution, the only institution founded by Christ himself for the purpose of bringing every person, nation, creature, and thing back to a proper relationship with God, back to friendship with God. That’s why we want people in the Catholic Church.
Do we want Protestants? Are we specifically reaching out to Protestants? Absolutely. 100%, yes. But do we want every Hindu, every Buddhist, every secular TV commentator?
We want all of them, even the people at NPR. They should be in the Catholic Church, not for our good, but for their good, because God loves them.
Joe: This reminds me of some of that stuff that was popular in the 90s when Father Richard Neuhaus was still writing up manifestos with people. And it was, oh, well, we’re not gonna have sheep stealing. We’re gonna have a united effort in the culture war or whatever it is. They were pro-life or something like that. And to be sure, I’m happy to link arms with Protestants in front of the abortion clinic, but let’s not make any mistake, and I think you said it exactly well, we want everyone to be Catholic.
Cy: We want to add to that.
Joe: So we believe that Christ established one church and that he wants everyone to be part of that church because he prayed that we’d all be part of one body. Okay, so if that’s true, then we are called to bring everybody in there, not to say, yeah, Jesus, I agree with you, but I’m gonna actually disagree to disagree on this on Protestants. We’ll leave them outside. That’s not acceptable.
Now, the idea, like we’ll all just do our own denominational thing is a Protestant idea. Right? Like, Methodists don’t think everyone needs to be a Methodist. Baptists don’t think everybody needs to be a Baptist because they don’t pretend to be the one true church. They can’t possibly make that claim.
And so what Craig is upset about is the idea that the Catholic Church believes it’s the church founded by Christ. That’s the whole reason we’re having this conversation.
Now, the second thing I’d say, you know, as Cy said, it’s not as if there aren’t entire Protestant ministries that are aimed at targeting Catholics. They exist. And even outside the abortion clinic, abolished human abortion won’t link arms with Catholics. And I’ve been to multiple instances where we were praying outside an abortion clinic. And then the folks from the fundamentalist group with the loudspeaker, instead of denouncing the people murdering children, denounce us for, you know, praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet because it has a Hail Mary in there.
It’s a totally perverted, and I would even argue demonic perversion of the gospel, but that exists and it’s widespread.
And third, I think a lot of people reach Protestants because it’s a lot easier to have a conversation because, you know, okay, I can show you this part of the Bible, but if somebody doesn’t accept the authority of the Bible and they want to argue cosmology, the number of people prepared to have cosmological arguments with an atheist almost necessarily is fewer than the number of people who know their Bible and can explain theology. That’s true of Catholics and Protestants alike. We have more that we can work with to have a fruitful conversation with each other. And so I don’t think one needs to wax conspiratorial.
Fourth, and this is the last thing I’ll say here, I think that there’s just a lot of delusional thinking about this. And I’d point you in the article, it points to this Italian Protestant pastor, Leonardo di Ciccaro Chirico.
Cy: Hey, the three of us, we got to an Italian pronunciation. We did it. We worked our way through it.
Joe: He attacks Bishop Barron’s Word on Fire ministry as if it’s an outreach to disappointed evangelicals.
That’s not… I don’t think anyone could possibly watch Word on Fire and think, you know who Bishop Barron’s mostly targeting? Evangelicals. It’s solipsistic. It’s crazy. Meanwhile, the guy they’re citing…
Catholics having, like, responses to Protestantism has an entire page called Vatican Files where he just comments on Catholicism.
So, yeah, the insane double standard of, like, we’re going to attack Catholics, but if you respond to us at all, even in the course of mostly responding to atheists, we’re going to act like you picked on us. It’s bizarre.
Cy: Yeah. Here’s what the article says. What are some practical ways Protestant believers can respond to the rise of online Catholic apologetics? Which, again, let’s go back to Karl Keating and give him credit where credit is due. I mean, years and years and years ago, he was at the foundation of this movement, which is bearing so much fruit. But among the four things they suggested was not the one that I would suggest of how to respond to Catholic apologetics.
Joe: You mean like become Catholic, become Catholic?
Cy: Yes!
It’s not because we’re better people than… It’s not because we’re smarter people than you. It’s got nothing to do with us or you. It has to do with the person of Jesus Christ who wants to meet you in the Eucharist, who wants to forgive you.
Joe: And if you’re someone who really thinks it doesn’t matter if someone’s Catholic or Protestant, don’t respond to people becoming Catholic, then be like, that’s fine.
Cy: Yeah, right.
Joe: If you’re actually indifferent to denomination, I would say, number one, our Lord isn’t. But number two, if you are, then let people become Catholic and don’t get worked up about it.
Chris: It’s true. If William Lane Craig sees a Lutheran become a Methodist, I don’t think he gets exercised about that.
Cy: Right.
Joe: No, right, right.
But it was because it’s all mere Christianity, but it didn’t follow that principle. Like, if someone says, I don’t think Catholics are Christians, then fine, you can see why each side would care about that. But there’s something that strikes me as disingenuous about saying, like, hey, it doesn’t matter if you’re Catholic or Protestant.
But don’t become Catholic, then they…
Cy: I will say this. They did a dangerous thing at the end. They mentioned four Protestant thinkers that you can watch on YouTube. And you know why that’s dangerous? Because next year those people might have figured it out and come into the Catholic Church again.
This is not some form of triumphalism. What are you protesting against if you’re Protestant now? What’s left to protest against? It’s obvious. It seems to me it’s obvious now that you know after all these years where the Bible came from, you can… All these lies that have been told about the Catholic faith worshiping saints or Mary, or they’ve been debunked a million times online in videos that you can watch anytime you want. What are you protesting against? Come back where Jesus… Come back to what Jesus founded. He wants you there because he loves you.
Joe: Yeah. I mean, I even add like the four YouTube channels they recommend. It’s Gavin Ortlund, who’s a Reformed Baptist who doesn’t agree with Dr. Jordan Cooper, who is a Lutheran who doesn’t agree with Mike Winger, who is an evangelical, who doesn’t agree with Wes Huff. I mean, it’s for people who don’t actually preach the same thing. And just saying, like, hey, don’t listen to what Catholics are saying. That’s like a single coherent theology. Listen to these four disagreeing voices instead.
Some say John the Baptist, some say one of the prophets.
Error is diverse and contradictory. Truth is united. I mean, literally. Gavin Ortlund’s channel is called Truth Unites. Where do you find a church proclaiming a single vision of the truth?
And it’s just remarkable. Last thing I know, I’m going long on this. Mike Winger is quoted in this accusing Catholics of lying about Catholic teaching to try to get Protestants to become Catholic. And I would suggest the humbler approach is to say maybe Catholics understand Catholic theology better than you do. And the reason that, you know, the arguments Catholic apologists are making don’t agree with your vision of Catholicism isn’t because they’re lying, but because you’ve been spreading falsehoods about the Catholic Church.
Cy: Right, right. Your vision of it was not true.
And one of the things I do love about Trent Horn, I’ve loved it for years about Trent Horn, but you too, Joe, all you guys is this sense that we’re not trying to cover up the sins of the Catholic Church. Like, we get it. Like, if you’re looking at the Catholic Church going, oh, I don’t want to belong to that. Look at what a mess that’s been throughout history. Yeah, that’s a perfectly reasonable response. You have to work your way past that.
Christ himself prophesied that the wheat and the chaff would grow up together. If Christ himself prophesied, don’t look for something better than what the Lord himself prophesied.
But I don’t like they go. Part of this article is, well, in the 16th century, the church needed reform. We shouldn’t forget that.
Yeah, in the 12th century, the church needed reform too, but it wasn’t in the 21st century.
Joe: I mean, it’s constantly the case. Semper reformanda is perfectly valid as long as you realize reform isn’t… You know, if I say I’m going to reform Catholic Answers, and my reform is I leave and form some new group, that’s not an actual reform, that’s a break. It’s like the reformers are not actually reformers. They’re not reforming the Church. Francis of Assisi is a reformer.
Cy: Right, right.
Joe: These are revolutionaries. Like there’s a reason we don’t call it the American Reformation when we broke away from England.