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Recently on X, someone suggested that Protestant apologist James White ask for the Virgin Mary’s intercession in heaven, and he responded:
Mary has no power on earth, has no idea you, or anyone else is praying to her, and hence that would be an utter waste of time and breath. Jesus is King, there is no Queen, and we are told to pray to God and let our desires and petitions be known to Him. Period.
There’s a number of things there that I could respond to, but what I’m interested in at the moment is his claim that Mary “has no idea you, or anyone else is praying to her.”
That’s a very strong statement, and even if I were a Protestant, I would say, “Wait a minute. How do you know that?”
An Initial Note
I need to start with an initial note to explain that—in his interaction on X—James didn’t go into any depth. He did not provide any arguments for his position.
But he made a very strong statement, and—even if I were Protestant—I would question it.
Since James didn’t give us any arguments for his position, this means that I have to imagine what he might say to support it.
I’d rather have his own arguments to work with, because—in trying to imagine what a person advocating a position might say—I very well might come up with arguments they wouldn’t use.
But that’s the risk you run if you make bold assertions and don’t explain why you hold them.
If James chooses to respond, he might dismiss everything I say by stating that I didn’t come up with the arguments he would use for his position, and fair enough!
But I’m curious as to why he can be so confident, so I’m going to do my best to imagine what a person holding his position might say and try to be fair and balanced in responding.
Sola Scriptura
Since James White is a Protestant, he believes in the doctrine of sola scriptura, which holds that every Christian doctrine needs to be stated or implied by one or more verses of Scripture.
If I were a Protestant, I’d believe that, too, and so I’d want to know how James can be so confident in asserting that the Virgin Mary has no idea that anyone is praying to her.
Where does Scripture say or imply that?
Unfortunately, James doesn’t cite any Bible verses in his X post, so we are left to guess.
“The Dead Know Nothing”
If I were to guess what verses a person of this opinion might appeal to, one that comes to mind is Ecclesiastes 9:5, which says:
The dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5b).
I mean, that would do it, right? If the dead know nothing, and if—on James White’s view—the Virgin Mary is dead, then she would not know anything. Therefore, she wouldn’t know anyone is praying to her.
But there’s a problem here. Taken at face value and in a literal sense, this verse says that the dead don’t know anything—nothing at all. So they wouldn’t know about God or about Jesus or the future resurrection. They wouldn’t know that they had ever been alive. They would have no conscious experiences.
In fact, this verse is frequently appealed to by people who believe in a doctrine known as Christian mortalism—also sometimes called soul sleep—that holds people have no conscious experiences at all between death and resurrection.
You can see why more clearly if you look at the passage in context. The author of Ecclesiastes is meditating on the fact that both the righteous and the unrighteous die, and then he says:
He who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:4-6).
The book of Ecclesiastes is unique in the Bible in that it assumes a this-worldly perspective, discussing what happens “under the sun” without focusing on divine revelation. It’s a form of early, Israelite philosophy, and it thus represents an incomplete perspective.
The fact that it is incomplete is indicated when the passage says that “forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.” But this isn’t true in light of the resurrection of the dead, which has now been divinely revealed. The dead may not currently have a share in what is done in the world, but they will in the future, so it won’t be forever.
It’s likely that this passage was written before the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead had been revealed and fully accepted, but that only underscores the fact that it’s taking an incomplete perspective based on what a person in this world—without divine revelation—could figure out.
So “the dead know nothing” isn’t a suitable text to use to prove that Mary doesn’t know anyone is praying to her. If it proved anything, it would prove too much—that she has no conscious experiences in the afterlife—and it’s coming from what is known to be an incomplete perspective.
Other Verses?
Are there other verses that one might appeal to? Well, there are other verses that refer to the dead as being asleep.
The problem is that—taken literally—they also would prove that the dead don’t have conscious experiences between death and resurrection, and so Christian mortalists also appeal to these passages.
The trouble here is that sleep is a well-known biblical euphemism for death. A euphemism is when you refer to an unpleasant reality using a more pleasant figure of speech. It’s like when we refer to the dead as “the dearly departed” or as those who have “passed on” or “gone to their reward.” Those are aways of softening the blunt reality of death by using more pleasant terminology.
In the Bible, they would do this with death using the metaphor of sleep, since dead people often look like they’re asleep, but the expression is not meant to be taken literally.
And the Bible makes it clear that sleep is a metaphor for death because it shows that the dead do have conscious experiences before resurrection. For example, in Luke 16, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows Lazarus, the Rich Man, and Abraham all having conscious experiences in the afterlife.
One might object that Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, but the book of Revelation—which is not a parable—also shows the souls of the departed having conscious experiences in the afterlife.
So I don’t think you can use any of the death-as-sleep verses to prove that the Virgin Mary isn’t having conscious experiences in heaven.
And—frankly—I think James White would agree with that, because as far as I know, he’s not a Christian mortalist.
Another Approach?
What you’d really need to prove that the Virgin Mary doesn’t know that anyone is praying to her is not a verse talking about the dead not knowing things in general but a verse saying that they don’t know certain things, like who is praying to them.
Are there such verses?
Frankly, no. Nothing like that is stated or implied in Scripture, so James might try another approach.
For example, he might say, “Mary doesn’t know anyone is praying to her because she’s not omniscient, and so there is no way for her to know that people are praying to her.”
This kind of argument is made by many in the Protestant community.
So how well does it work? It’s certainly true that Mary is not omniscient. She’s not God and doesn’t know everything. So how would she learn about people praying to her?
Well, even though Mary isn’t God and doesn’t know everything, there is someone who is God and does know everything: God himself.
And—if you know the history of Christian thought on the issue—that’s actually the common opinion about how saints like Mary learn about our requests for their intercession: God tells them.
You see, God is love, and the saints in heaven are perfectly loving people. As a result, they want to pray for anyone who would like them to. Doing so is part of their happiness in heaven, and so they learn about our prayers through God. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote:
Since no rectitude is lacking to the saints, they wish to know what concerns themselves, and consequently it follows that they know it in the Word. Now it pertains to their glory that they assist the needy for their salvation. . . . Wherefore it is evident that the saints are cognizant of such things as are required for this purpose; and so it is manifest that they know in the Word the . . . prayers of those who have recourse to their assistance (Summa Theologiae III-II:72:1).
So, on this view, God routes this information to the saints—including the Virgin Mary—and this is the common opinion on how they learn about our prayer requests.
Now, James might say, “Well, I don’t believe that!”
Okay, fair enough. But how do you know it doesn’t happen this way? We’ve already seen that you don’t have any Scripture verses that say or imply that the saints lack this specific kind of knowledge.
One could then make a non-scriptural argument that they have no way of knowing about our prayers—which would be a philosophical argument since it appeals to reason rather than Scripture.
But I’ve shown—again appealing to reason—that there is a way they could learn about our prayer requests. Maybe there’s more than one way, but there is at least that one: God could tell them. He is omniscient, so he knows when we ask for their prayers. And he’s omnipotent, so he’s capable of telling them about our prayer requests. So how do you know that he doesn’t?
If I were Protestant, I’d have to say, “I don’t know that he doesn’t. I can’t prove that he doesn’t by Scripture alone, and so I have to leave open the possibility that he does.”
But James didn’t do that. He said, “Mary . . . has no idea you, or anyone else is praying to her.”
And if you want me to believe that as a matter of doctrine, you need to show that it is either stated in Scripture or that it can be deduced from Scripture “by good and necessary consequence”—as they say in the Westminster Confession of Faith.
And that hasn’t been done.
Not a Doctrine?
At this point, James might say, “Well, I’m not asserting this as a matter of Christian doctrine but as a matter of personal opinion.”
Okay, fine. But then—as a Protestant—I’d have no obligation to believe you. Because at this point you’ve admitted that you really don’t know that the Virgin Mary is unaware that people are asking for her prayers.
On this scenario, White would have said that he doesn’t believe that she does—that this is his opinion. But without proof, one opinion is as good as another, and if you want me to believe yours, you need to give me evidence supporting it.
And here’s where we run into an additional problem, because there’s evidence supporting the contrary position—that saints in heaven do know about our prayer requests.
“The Prayers of the Saints”
Toward the beginning of the book of Revelation, John sees the way God’s throne room in heaven is structured:
- At the center is God, seated on his throne (Revelation 4:2).
- Close in around the throne are four living creatures that represent a fusion of Isaiah’s seraphim and Ezekiel’s cherubim (Revelation 4:6-8).
- Then there is a group of twenty-four elders seated on thrones (Revelation 4:4).
- Outside of them is a multitude of hundreds of millions of angels (Revelation 5:11-12).
- Finally, the furthest out is a great multitude that no one can count from every tribe and people and language (Revelation 7:9).
The way this is structured, we have God at the center of everything.
The four living creatures then represent the leaders of God’s angels, as they are the closest to God and combine elements of the seraphim and cherubim.
The twenty-four elders represent the leaders of God’s human people, as illustrated by the fact they are close to God and echo the twelve tribes plus the twelve apostles. The number twenty-four also represents the twenty-four courses of priests that served at God’s temple in Jerusalem.
Outside of the two leadership circles, we have the bulk of the elect angels in general, and lastly, we have the bulk of elect humans in general.
What’s important for our present purposes is that the twenty-four elders represent the leaders of God’s human people in heaven.
Now here is one of the things John says about them:
The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Revelation 5:8).
This depicts the elders as priests in God’s heavenly temple. They are holding harps, which were used in divine worship. They have bowls of incense, which it was the duty of priests to offer to God. And—as G.K. Beale points out in his commentary on Revelation—Jewish writings sometimes refer to chief priests as elders.
It’s also natural that they would be priests since they are the humans closest to the throne, with those who they represent being the great multitude of humans further out.
But notice how John identifies the bowls of incense that they are offering to God. He says that they “are the prayers of the saints.”
Last episode, we saw that there was a widespread belief among Jews and Christians that angels intercede for human beings. This is taught in the Old Testament, it’s mentioned in Second Temple literature, and it’s taught in the New Testament. In fact, Jesus himself teaches that this is the case.
And as we saw then, the angels were functioning as God’s priests in his heavenly temple, and one of the functions of priests is to intercede for people, so it was only natural that the angels intercede for humans.
But after Jesus died and rose again, humans got to go to heaven, too. And as we see in this passage, they’re also serving as priests. Furthermore, Exodus 19:6 says of Israel:
You shall be to me a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6).
Similarly, 1 Peter 2:9 says of Christians:
You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9).
And as the book of Revelation itself says:
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! . . . They will be priests of God and of Christ (Revelation 20:6).
So the common priesthood of Jews and Christians continues into eternity. It’s not just something for this life.
It’s thus no surprise that we see Christians—and especially their leaders—serving as priests in God’s heavenly temple, which only makes it all the more appropriate that they offer to God “the prayers of the saints”—meaning the prayers of all God’s people.
But here’s the thing: If you’re going to offer someone’s prayer request to God, you have to know about that prayer request.
This passage thus gives us positive evidence that the saints in heaven—like the Virgin Mary—are aware of our prayer requests. This doesn’t tell us how they are aware of them. That’s a matter for theological speculation. But it does tell us that they are aware of them.
Communication in the Afterlife
But suppose you disagree with this rather obvious interpretation of this passage in Revelation. Suppose that you’re not convinced that it reveals the saints in heaven are aware of the prayers of the saints on Earth.
Still, how could you be sure that Mary is not aware of our prayers?
Let’s go back to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16 for a moment. There, we find out that, after they both die and Lazarus goes to Abraham’s bosom and the rich man goes to hell, there’s a conversation that takes place:
[The rich man] called out, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.”
But Abraham said, “Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.”
And [the rich man] said, “Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment” (Luke 16:24-28).
The conversation goes on from there, but notice that in this parable, the dead are communicating with each other. In fact, the saved and the lost are communicating with each other. And the rich man is even aware that his five brothers aren’t with him in the afterlife. He knows they’re still on Earth.
Now, you might say that this is just a parable, and that might be true—though if so, it’s a very unusual parable since it alone among Jesus’ parables involves a named character—Lazarus. We also know from the Gospel of John about a real man named Lazarus who comes back from the dead, and here there is a discussion of the character of Lazarus coming back from the dead.
But let’s suppose that this is just a parable. Jesus’ parables are populated with things from real life—like fathers and sons and kings and servants and crops and harvests. So we have good reason to believe that conversations between the dead—including about those left behind on Earth—are also real things.
Furthermore, in the book of Revelation—which is not a parable, we see those in heaven discussing things on Earth. In Revelation 6, we read this:
When [the Lamb] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been (Revelation 6:9-11).
Here we see the souls of the martyrs crying out for justice. They’re aware that those who killed them are still down on Earth and that justice has not yet been done.
Later, in chapter 7, we learn that the great, uncountable multitude John sees has just come up to heaven from the great tribulation on Earth, so they obviously know what has been happening on Earth.
And we see the spirits in heaven communicating with each other—just like the rich man and Abraham were doing. In fact, there are a lot of conversations happening in heaven in Revelation.
So all of this raises a very important question that would have occurred to me even if I were Protestant: Why wouldn’t Mary know about people praying to her?
Even if you think that God doesn’t tell her himself, is it really credible to believe that—in the last 2,000 years—nobody has come up to heaven and mentioned it to her? Y’know, “Blessed Mother, there are a lot of people down on Earth asking for you to pray for them.”
In fact, a lot of people who are in heaven were among those asking for her intercession in life, and many of them—rightly or wrongly—believed that their prayers were answered through her intercession. So, upon arriving in heaven, one of the things they would do would be to say thanks. Y’know, “Blessed Mother, I want to thank you for praying for me during my life.”
Even if Mary hadn’t been praying for them, she would learn that people on Earth were wanting her prayers.
The only way to avoid this happening would be to put Mary in some kind of heavenly sensory deprivation tank or heavenly solitary confinement, and I find that idea very difficult to credit.
So in view of the biblical teaching on angelic intercession, in view of Revelation’s teaching on Christians in heaven offering God “the prayers of the saints,” and in view of sheer common sense, even as a Protestant I would think it very likely that Mary does know that people on Earth have been asking for her prayers.
The next question would be, “What does she do in response to that knowledge?”
Well—like everyone in heaven—the Virgin Mary is a completely loving person. So what does a loving person do when they learn that someone wants their prayers?
They pray for them.
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