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You can hardly tune into a Catholic podcast or read a Catholic publication these days without someone complaining about the lack of manliness. But is a lack of manliness the problem, or a lack of Christianity in men? We asked the world’s most manly man, Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers, to help us get to the roots of the manliness panic.
Cy Kellett:
Recovering a Christian image of manhood. Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers is next. Hello and welcome to Focus the Catholic Answers podcast, for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett your host and today we talk a little bit about defending a Christian image of manhood. I think you would agree with me that all over the Christian world there seems to be a growing consensus that manhood is in crisis. You certainly hear Catholic speakers and podcasters talking about the need to recover a more robust manliness in the face of what the culture is telling us about manhood. It’s hard to argue with any of this, but it’s also true that many of the loudest and in some cases most popular voices promoting a kind of recovery of manhood are doing so in ways that really are not very helpful.
I could probably give you five or six names of Catholic speakers or podcasters right now off the top of my head, who are promoting ideas of manliness by essentially promoting themselves as more manly than others, by calling other people names, by using humiliating language to talk about other men, and acting like they’re some kind of tough guys. It’s unconvincing and it’s unhelpful, and frankly it’s pathetic. We had a little meeting here and we said who would we trust in the Catholic world among the speakers that we know to give a truly Christian, a truly Catholic account of this crisis of manhood, and the way out of this crisis of manhood? You know what, one name on the lips of everyone immediately, Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers. I think you’ll see why when he answers our question about how to recover manhood. Here’s Deacon Harold. Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers thank you very much for being with us.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
It’s great to be with you Cy, thank you for having me.
Cy Kellett:
Would you agree with the general premise that there’s a crisis in manhood, that men are not sure what their manhood requires of them these days?
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Yeah, I think there is. I think there’s a couple of things going on here. One of them is this term that the culture has come up with now, toxic masculinity.
Cy Kellett:
Exactly.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Basically as defined by the secular culture, toxic masculinity is a really narrow and repressive description of manhood, which basically designates manhood is defined by violence and sex and status and aggression. It’s this cultural myth about manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are weakness. Where sex and brutality are the yardsticks that measures how manly you are, as opposed to feminine traits like crying and showing emotional vulnerability. It means that you’re not really a man. Those definitions are impoverished and pathetic, and that is not at all who we are as men. We I think even see a response to this in a sense through this transgenderism.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Because of this toxic masculinity you have men that believe that they’re not really men that they’re more women. Then on the reverse actually, you have this feminism, this poisoned feminism that comes out of the 70s, where in order to be more of a woman you have to do what men do. Now we’re seeing the results of that. We have women who want to become men. We see that both this toxic masculinity, quite frankly toxic femininity, both of them are not really expressing who we are as human beings made in God’s image and likeness. I think we need to return to a proper biblical understanding of both femininity and what we’re talking about today of course, masculinity.
Cy Kellett:
There’s a certain way in which it seems like even from boyhood males are being encouraged to feel bad about those things that are pretty standard male stuff. Anthony Esolen, the great Catholic writer has written a lot about this. A boy who can’t sit still in school, somehow that’s a terrible thing, but it actually it’s pretty hard for a boy to sit still in school. Someone who can go out and just wants to climb trees and dig in the mud, that’s actually pretty normal stuff, but we’ve turned that into some kind of a problem.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
You’re absolutely right. In fact, in school, what do they do with boys like that? They say they have some kind of developmental disability, and they put them on a special program or they stay after school, or they’re a discipline problem. They’re just being boys. Boys have this natural testosterone where there’s a lot of this energy. What we need is we need men, particularly fathers in families to help direct and focus that energy of young boys. See the problem is in schools they’re not letting boys be boys. Now you fill them with Ritalin and all these other kinds of medications, because you want to try to suppress what they are as boys. That’s why I’m a huge advocate of single-sex education, all-girls schools and all-boys schools.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Because what’s happening you have what, I think something like 85 or 90% of teachers are women at the grade school level. They see this activity in boys and they see the calmness of the girls, something wrong with the boys we have to calm them down. But they really don’t understand how boys learn differently. Obviously we know girls develop more quickly than boys do. What do you do with that boy? You let them be boys. You focus their academic and their physical training around what it means to be a boy. For example, there’s some schools around the country, my school St. Benedict’s Prep in Newark, there’s O’Dea High School in Seattle that are doing this very, very well as all-boy institutions of secondary education.
Cy Kellett:
I have to say in my own life I was raised mostly in California schools where they were co-ed entirely co-ed, I didn’t know any single sex education. Then after college I got a job teaching in an all-boys high school, and there really was a difference, and I thought there’s actually something to this. There’s something to these young guys being in classroom together. First of all, they’re not trying to impress girls. I don’t know if women understand just how much of a man’s life is devoted to trying to impress girls, and they’re not so they can do other things. Some of what they do is gross, of course they’re young, and some of what they do is just the most awesome stuff. But I found I loved an all-boys high school.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
No, absolutely. You will find that boys thrive, they learn to understand what it means to be a man, to be around other boys. They see a lot of positivity in maleness. For example, there’s an expression in the Bible gird your loins, which literally means to pull your pants up. We saw this phenomenon about five or 10 years ago with sagging, wear your pants below your waist and your underwear is showing. It’s the kind of foolishness, that’s not authentic masculinity at all. The Bible says you don’t pull your pants down you pull your pants up, gird your loins. For example, when God says to Job, “Gird your loins like a man. I will question you and you will answer Me.” In other words, summon your inner strength and prepare for battle.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
The battle against sin, the battle against death, the battle to protect all our families, our church, our culture, so that we can truly become the people who God created us to be. That’s a man’s job right from the beginning in Genesis chapter two. He put them in the garden to till and to keep it. Those words are abad and shamar in Hebrew. Abad is a work that’s in the form of service, and shamar means literally to protect and defend. God put the man in the garden to serve, protect and defend literally. That’s why we are built the way we are, that’s why we have the energy that we are, the testosterone. That’s in order to serve the way God has called and intended us to serve as men.
Cy Kellett:
It’s not just schools however, the media portrayal of men. There’s a growing awareness of say Hollywood’s depiction of Asian men over the decades has been horrible. Hollywood’s depiction of African American people horrible. Mexicans were treated in a certain way. We’re starting to wake up to come on, those are stereotypical presentations of people. But it doesn’t seem like we’re waking up to the fact that Homer Simpson, as funny as Homer Simpson is, and I’m not trying to talk anybody out of The Simpsons is funny, that’s a really ugly vision of manhood.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Absolutely. Not just Homer Simpson, but you have what was that? What was that show? Al Bundy. Al Bundy is another one. Almost every single male on the Disney Channel, on every single show on the Disney Channel is weak, effeminate, just laugh, they’re buffoons, they’re idiots. They’re not anybody to be taken seriously. You’re exactly right, I think you nailed it Cy. You have these stereotypes are being presented and then people start to believe that’s how people really are. When they see African Americans or Asians depicted a certain way they start to believe, well that must be how they really are. The same thing when you see masculinity presented in the way that the culture presents it, you’re starting to believe well, that’s just the way guys are. Then what happens? Women start settling for second best.
Cy Kellett:
Oh boy yeah.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Because they [inaudible 00:10:18] this is what a guy must be like. Well, as long as he doesn’t hit me, whatever that’ll be fine. No, no, no, no. The bar is not here, the bar needs to start here. Why? Because where does the bar star for us as men? On the cross of Jesus Christ.
Cy Kellett:
Well, exactly. Wow that’s exactly right. But the standard for men is very low now. Now it’s almost as if men have reacted to this stereotyping by playing the stereotypes, so that now you have the slacker pot smoker Seth, what’s his name? I can’t remember now. Seth Rogen? Character is the popular male character now, and he’s a dope and he doesn’t do anything.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
No, you’re exactly right. Which is part of the reason why I don’t watch television. It’s a waste of my time. That’s why we need to step up, and I think that Catholic men can lead the way in this area. Really men of God, men who understand that being a good man just doesn’t mean bringing home a paycheck. It doesn’t mean just bringing your family to mass every Sunday. Anybody can do that. But what it means to make sure that your wife and children are getting to heaven. In Ephesians chapter five, it says that men are to sanctify their wives, to make them holy. How are we doing that? How are we helping our families get into heaven? How are we leading our families to heaven?
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
I think really Ephesians chapter five is the way for us to get back to a proper understanding of authentic masculinity to get away from these stereotypes, to get away from these images and to begin to see men as God intended us to be seen. To act as men the way God intended us to act, and not let the culture dictate the pace to us. That’s one of the big problems that we have. The culture spits out all of this venom, spits out all of these negative and stereotypical images. We consume it, and then we expect things to change. We expect men to change. No, we need to step up as men of faith and break down those stereotypes. They need to see authentic expressions of masculinity. That’s what our church through scripture and tradition helps us do exactly that.
Cy Kellett:
This is where I think Christian manhood though is particularly needed, because the church really from the incarnation of the Lord forward, based on what Jesus reveals to us about God, there’s a revolution in what childhood means. The Christian culture that came out of the Roman empire treats children differently than any other culture. There’s a revolution in what womanhood means, and there is a revolution in what manhood means. So that the Christian man, say the chivalrous man of the middle ages is really not the same as manhood has been portrayed. This is where I really want to get with you is, okay if we’re going to talk about recovering manhood, there’s no point, you don’t just want to recover pagan manhood. You want to recover Christian manhood. What’s distinctive about Christian manhood?
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
That’s a great question. Because what’s the expression? Boys will be boys.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Well no, that’s not it. It has to be, we have to be men of God. So what’s the difference? I think Saint Paul gives us the answer to that. He says, “Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church.” Now, husbands there could be not just men that are fathers of families, of the domestic church with wives and children, but also priests, who are fathers in the church whose spouse is the church, the bride of Christ and single men who are witnessing to the power of Christ in the culture. All of those are called to be leaders. Now, again, headship and leadership and authority are exercised by men, there’s no question about that. But it’s an authority that’s not rooted in toxic masculinity it’s rooted in service. Jesus says Himself, “I have not come to be served but to serve. The greatest among you is the least, is the servant of all.”
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Jesus gives us a beautiful example of this in John’s gospel, not the Synoptics, but in John’s Gospel he washes the apostles’ feet. Why? Because that’s something that a slaved did. He was showing that the example that they’re supposed to lead the church those first bishops is through service. That’s the model. What does that service look like? Look at a crucifix. Jesus broke Himself open and poured Himself out in love for us. We as men are called to imitate Christ, that’s why Paul says, “I preach Christ and Christ crucified. I want to know nothing,” Paul says, “Except the cross of Jesus Christ.” Because Paul knew that that is the image. When we emulate Christ on that cross, when we break ourselves open and pour ourselves out in love, then we are truly exercising authentic masculinity. That’s what separates us from the man of the culture.
Cy Kellett:
Here’s the deal though, I see a lot of Catholic speakers talking about recovering manhood and not making this distinction. You almost get this idea of, okay, I’m all for recovering manhood, God created me a man and you deacon a man. He did it out of love for us and for everybody who would meet us. Now we fail at that certainly, but that’s why God did it. He created manhood out of love. Many of the images I feel like some of these Catholic let’s get back to being men, men are saying on the internet, you want to say yeah, but that’s not Christian manhood. You’re just grabbing for any sign of manhood, that’s not Christian manhood it’s not distinctive.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
You always want to make sure that authentic masculinity is rooted in the scriptures and in the teaching of the church. I see what you’re saying Cy, there are men of faith that are for example trying to return to chivalry, to knighthood and that kind of thing. Which is great, knights they wear the armor because Paul says in Ephesians chapter six, where he talks about the armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness sword of the Spirit. You have a lot of these men showing images of knighthood and bravery and chivalry, which is great, but that has to be integrated and connected to faith in Jesus Christ. Because what is the battle against? It’s against sin and death. That’s the battle Jesus fought on the cross. If you’re talking about being chivalrous, that’s one thing, but how is that different from a cultural response to toxic masculinity? Is a return to chivalry, open the car door for a woman, paying for a meal, whatever. That’s great, but that’s not going to get them to heaven. How are we leading people to deeper intimacy with our Lord and savior Jesus Christ? How are we leading the way to deeper union with God? That’s the question.
Cy Kellett:
Part of our problem, however, as men is not just that the culture is abusive to us, but we fall for the seductions of the world, and probably the greatest plague to manhood and womanhood on the planet now is the easy availability of really graphic pornography. Easy availability like this computer in front of me, 10 seconds from now I could be on the grossest pornographic website in the world. I’m pretty sure I could. But pretty quickly anyways I could be there. That means there’s no barrier except my own self-discipline, my own desire for something higher between me and real degradation. I guess I’ll just throw that out to you. What do you say to men about pornography?
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
I think pornography is like cancer amongst men right now. Growing moreso even amongst women as well. This idea of pornography, see here’s the thing. God created us for men to be attracted to women and women to be attracted to men, but it’s ordered. If you look at in the scriptures, God created male and female He created them, then came the command. He established a covenant relationship where God is the heart and the core and the center of that relationship. Then out of that relationship, He says be fruitful and multiply. The word in Hebrew is ephrata means to be open. Be fruitful and multiply, be open to life. That’s God’s first command. In Genesis two, she comes forth from His side, and then he says therefore a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife and the two become one flesh. Now interesting the word for cling to in Hebrew is dabaq. Dabaq literally means to pursue as to overtake.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
The same word is used in Exodus. Remember when the Israelites got to the Red Sea and they looked back and the Pharaoh’s army was coming toward them? The army was pursuing the Israelites, it’s the same word that’s used there. He pursues her, why? Because she’s a gift from God. She’s to be cherished, she’s to be nurtured, she’s to be protected, and so he pursues her. That’s beautiful imagery there. That is a proper understanding. What’s happened, the culture has taken this great gift of human sexuality, which is an expression of God’s love, and we’ve twisted and distorted it and perverted it and changed it into a consumer product. We spend $3,000 every second on pornography in this country. $3,000 every second turning women into objects for pleasure and gratification. Then that fuels human trafficking. You see this big campaigns against human trafficking, that comes right out of pornography. What pornography does, it literally destroys your heart. You do pornography because you think I’m not having sex so I got to look at porn. The more porn you look at, actually the less actual physical intimacy you desire. It literally kills God’s life in you.
Cy Kellett:
Yes. I think even secular media many people are taking note of that. There’s been movies about men who are so involved, and these are not religious movies. They’re just so involved in pornography they’re not interested in women anymore. They’re not interested in actual physical women anymore. Christ I think you would agree with me elevates the place of women by the way that He interacts with His own mother and with other women. He’s not someone who just says the way you’ve all been doing it as far as keeping women in a certain position, that’s not acceptable to Christ. He does it very gently, but He elevates the place of women. Sometimes I feel like now that we’ve had this modern movement of feminism, so much of which is sick and corrupted, so much of which involves a real hatred of manhood and maleness even when it’s not admitted. No we don’t hate men, in its practice it is.
Cy Kellett:
But there are ways in which women vote now that they didn’t, great I’m all… Women have jobs that they couldn’t get into before, great. The elevation of manhood for a Christian man can’t be about putting women back in a place, and this is another thing I worry about. People misinterpreting or really having a very brutish interpretation of Paul’s wives be submissive to your husbands. We don’t want to rob that of its meaning, but that means something completely different than some kind of pornographic submission or submission… That’s a different kind of thing. What I’d like you to talk about is how we have a fully scriptural manhood that does not in any way want to put women back in some place that the Lord Himself doesn’t want them.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Exactly. Let me do two things. Let me, first of all, maybe point this out to you Cy, and maybe you may have not noticed this before. But in Genesis one and two, because sometimes people say, well, look how the church treats women? They can’t be ordained, we won’t let them do this and that and the other thing. Again, the more they’re like men the more feminine you are is the narrative. But if you look in the scriptures the woman is not created second she’s created last. In Genesis one, all the animals and then male and female He created them [inaudible 00:23:52]. In Genesis two, the man then all the animals and then the woman not second, last. What does that mean? She’s the pinnacle, she’s the high point, the apex, the cherry on top of the whipped cream of God’s created activity. Why, why? Then remember in Genesis two God brings the woman to the man. He brings her, she’s a gift to him. That’s why he pursues her. He’s pursuing that gift from God. Because why? She’s the life-giver and the life-bearer.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
A woman cooperates with the Holy Spirit that we pray every Sunday [foreign language 00:24:34]. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life. Women participate in that life-giving power of God in a way that we men we can’t possibly fully understand or appreciate that. That’s why we hold the blessed mother in such high esteem, because she is a woman, and because by the very nature of how God created to participate in the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit, she was able to carry God Himself. The word became reincarnate in her, and she gave birth to God. That’s awesome man. Then Ephesians you’re right. Paul says, “Wives be submissive to your husbands.”
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
The word submissive there in Greek is hupotasso. Hupotasso was actually a military word that was used by soldiers to describe troops arranged in divisions, that placed themselves under the mission and direction of a leader who was typically a general. What is Saint Paul’s saying? Because remember he uses the same soldier announcing Ephesians the next chapter Ephesians six. He says, “Wives place yourself under your husband’s mission.” That’s what he’s saying. What is his mission? Verse 25. “Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church.” How did Christ show His love for the church? He died for her. He gave His life for her. Saint Paul is saying ladies, place yourself under your husband’s mission because his job is to die to himself every day of his life for you, for your children, for the church and for the culture.
Cy Kellett:
Oh man what a beautiful reading of that. Thank you deacon. Well now we’re in the year of Saint Joseph too so we can’t finish talking about manhood without talking about Saint Joseph who is this the model of meekness in a certain way. He’s willing to surrender his life for these two others that are given into his care, that are much higher than he is in every way really. But here’s what I think is part of the manhood problem today too, and should not be overlooked, is that many men are hurt because the father didn’t stay in the home. It’s not just that the culture is giving them bad images of manhood, they don’t have that whatever a boy gets from growing into manhood in his father’s home with him there with them, they don’t have that.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
That’s true Cy, and that was my case too growing up with my family. My parents are divorced. They had a horrible marriage. My father loved alcohol and cigarettes and womanizing. He has 15 other children with other women besides the four with my mom that we know about. Some of my family members tell me there’s more than that. I totally get that Cy because that was my situation. In fact, I helped my mom basically raise my, I’m the oldest so I helped my mom raise my brothers and my sisters so I get that. But that’s not an excuse. That’s not an excuse. Father’s Day is coming up soon. Every year I can’t stand this. People say happy Father’s Day to all the dads and to all the moms who had to become dads. Oh no, no, no, no, no. First of all, we don’t say that for Mother’s Day do we? We don’t say happy Mother’s Day to all the moms and the dads who had to become moms, we don’t do that.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
But see we demean man, we want to take away from men by saying that women are dads. My mother understood that. She was the best mom ever, but she knew that she could not be a father to us, to me and my siblings. She made sure that we were around other men that gave us a godly image of what manhood looked like. In my neighborhood a lot of boys without that male figure joined gangs, because they’re looking, they’re attracted to that maleness and they find it in the gangs. But my mother pointed us to good gangs, boy scouts, which is questionable now but back then boy scouts were good, altar servers. When I got to high school my wrestling coach, Mr. Mike [inaudible 00:28:56] these are men that were fathers to me that were father figures. They didn’t take the place of my dad, but they were father figures to show me what authentic masculinity looked like. These are men to this very day, in fact in my book, I dedicated my first book and I specifically list those men by name who helped me to become the man that I am today.
Cy Kellett:
That’s beautiful. That puts me in a mind of this though, that all of us men are called because the culture is lacking these fatherhood figures. Look at those people who stepped in and were father figures for you. But also we’ve got to communicate to Catholic men, don’t leave your children. Whatever it takes, work it out, stay with them. A daughter needs her father and a son needs the father. Fathers are not this optional thing, this add on.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Cy let me say this. I talk about fatherhood, I talk about manhood I talk about marriage all the time, all around the world. I have to admit this COVID time when I was home for 10 months, my wife and I spent a lot more time together than we normally have in the past eight years since I left my job and started speaking and writing full time.
Cy Kellett:
And you’re still married?
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
There were issues that came up for us. We’ve been married 27-
Cy Kellett:
I know what you mean yeah.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
There were issues that came up for us to the point where we needed to go to counseling. These weren’t issues that came up because I was gone. That’s the first thing people want to say, well if you weren’t traveling so much. That has nothing to do with it because I don’t travel unless my wife says it’s okay. But there were other issues that because we weren’t talking really for a long time at a very deep level, there were things… Because now I’m home all the time for COVID, those things started to surface they came up. Things that actually I didn’t realize that were going on in her heart, and things that stirred up things for me as well. We’ve been going for the past six or seven months to counseling, which has gone very, very well. That’s the kind of vulnerability I’m talking about Cy. Most men will say oh, it’s not worth it, I’m just getting out of here. Because it’s easy to walk away. It’s easy to walk away. But what did Jesus do? He prayed in the agony of the garden. Lord, take this cup from Me. If it’s Your take it, but not My will but Your will be done Father.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
That’s the same thing [inaudible 00:31:27] don’t walk away, stay in there. God gives us the grace to be able to fight and get through it. Our marriage is deeper now and richer now and more beautiful now because of the pain. Just like look, there’s no resurrection without crucifixion. There’s no Easter Sunday without Good Friday. Let’s be real most of life is Good Friday. Psalm 90 written by Moses, our span is 70 years or 80 for those who are strong. Most of these are emptiness and pain. They pass swiftly and we are gone. My admitting this to all of the viewers and listeners out there is I’m exposing a little bit of my heart here to show you by my lived example, marriage is the hardest thing I’ve ever done.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
I was a benedictor in my 20s. Marriage is much harder than being a monk, I’ll tell you right now. Hardest thing I’ve ever done. Especially during this past six, seven months, the issues that have come up with my wife and I have really pushed that. But I’m learning just like when I was lifting weights when I was teenager, you tear that muscle and [inaudible 00:32:41] that muscle to grow. This has happened to our marriage, we got to have to tear some things in order for our marriage to grow. That’s what a man does, he stays in the fight and he sees it through to the end. You made a commitment when you stood at that alter, and you have to honor God by honoring that commitment. Yes it’s hard, but with Christ all things are possible,
Cy Kellett:
Amen deacon praise God. Thank you so much for sharing that. We want to talk about manhood and you were the only name that came up. We were just like we’ve got to talk to Deacon Harold about this. But for you to share that and make yourself vulnerable to other people by sharing that, God bless you for that and thank you for that. You’re right man, stay in the fight. Also, so many great joys follow that. There’s so many good things that follow that. May I ask you for your blessing on us and our listeners before we go?
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Sure man. Almighty God bless you and keep you and protect you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Cy Kellett:
Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers just one of the best. Thank you so much deacon.
Dcn. Harold Burke-Sivers:
Thank you so much for having me Cy.
Cy Kellett:
I literally don’t know why we don’t have Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers on every day. Zach who runs the video every time we do this said that’s the best Focus episode he has ever heard, and it’s pretty hard to argue with that. We love Deacon Harold, and really what an impressive, I did not expect him to open up and be so vulnerable at the end. But it’s very, very helpful. As a person who I’ve been quite open about the fact that in my marriage we’ve struggled a great deal, I kind of am of the opinion that we need to talk about these things, and we need to talk about them most especially so that people won’t just leave when things get difficult. You have to expect that this is a war, this is a battle. A battle for marriage, a battle for our children, a battle for the souls of all those who have been put in our care and battle is hard and you got to stick it out, you got to fight it out. That’s the real battle, that’s the real fight. It has nothing to do with putting down other men or with having a machismo that’s not Christian manhood.
Cy Kellett:
Christian manhood is different than all the other pagan manhoods and ideas of manhood that are offered to us. A very special thanks to Deacon Harold Berks-Sivers, and we will try now to have him on every day for the rest of the time that we are here doing Catholic Answers or something like that, we’ll see. I’m sure we’ll have him back again soon in any case. Hey, we love your support, we appreciate your support, and we’re very grateful people have been supporting us at givecatholic.com or just sending us a check and saying this is for Focus, and we’re very grateful for that. If you go to givecatholic.com give any amount, it helps us to continue this podcast, and put a little note there that says this is for Catholic Answers Focus so that it’ll get into the right account.
Cy Kellett:
If you’re watching on YouTube, don’t forget to like and subscribe down here wherever all that stuff is. That does help to grow the podcast, and we’re growing on YouTube and we’re happy to see you all each week a couple of times on YouTube. Wherever you get your podcasts if you subscribe there, you’ll be notified when there’s new episodes, and as always, if you’re willing, if you can give us that five star review, maybe a few nice words that too helps us to grow Catholic Answers Focus. I’m Cy Kellett your host and we’ll see you next time God willing right here on Catholic Answers Focus.