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In this episode Trent sits down with Austin from the “Gospel Simplicity” channel to ask about his investigation of Protestantism, Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy.
Welcome to the Counsel of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Counsel of Trent podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker Trent Horn. Today, I’m joined by Austin Suggs from the Gospel Simplicity Channel. Austin is Protestant, but for the past few months, maybe more than a year, I’ve seen him add a lot of videos to his channel showing a very honest investigation of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and really the essential doctrines that divide Christians. So I’ve been really impressed with his spiritual journey, with his honesty, and I think a lot of other people have been as well. His channel has grown a lot. So I thought it’d be fun to have him come on the show and talk about that journey and see where he’s at, and maybe we could have some fruitful dialogue about what divides and unites Protestants, Catholics, and the Orthodox. So Austin, welcome to the show.
Austin Suggs:
Thanks so much for having me, Trent. It’s an honor and a privilege to get to kind of flip the seats here. I know I had you on my channel, gosh, it’s almost probably been a year since we had you on. So it’s super exciting to be on your channel today.
Trent Horn:
Yeah, I remember I was on your channel talking about the papacy, and so we were discussing that a bit. But yeah. So tell us a little more about the channel. How long have you been doing this and briefly what is your journey and growth been like through this process, what you’re doing?
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. It’s been a really winding journey. I’ll say that when I set out with the channel, it wasn’t called Gospel Simplicity. I had the very original name of Austin Suggs and it had the direction of content of basically whatever came to my mind. So it’s no surprise that it took while for it to grow because I didn’t even know what the channel was about.
Austin Suggs:
The channel started before I went to Moody Bible Institute where I just graduated from. I guess that was a little over three years ago. It started as an opportunity to practice public speaking was really the main impetus for it. I had this desire to become a better teacher. I’d been given the opportunity to teach in a high school ministry at my church, and I thought, “Hey, I’ve got some camera gear and I love doing Bible studies. Maybe I can just practice public speaking by making YouTube videos.” That was about the amount of thought that went into it at the start.
Austin Suggs:
Fast forward about a year or so into that journey, about a year and a half, I suppose, I one day sat down making my weekly let’s chat video, and I was reflecting on the experience I had of going to a Catholic Bible study with my uncle. He had not been in the church for most of his life and he had some real tough times come on him. He was drawn back to the church and he was going to a Catholic church with his wife who was really interested in it. One day I got a call from him saying, “Hey, do you want to go to a Bible study with me?” To which I said, “Of course. Like, this is an answer to prayer.” And then he tells me-
Trent Horn:
[inaudible 00:02:52] Moody Bible Institute where Bible is our middle name.
Austin Suggs:
You’ve got it. Then he tells me it’s at 5:30 in the morning at a Catholic church. I thought I really should listen more before I talk.
Trent Horn:
That’d be truly me. People always invite me to men’s groups, and men’s groups always meet at like 6:00 in the morning. I’m more of a night owl. But props to you for doing that.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. So I ended up going and maybe a year afterwards, I sat down and thought, “This would be an interesting video to make,” because I learned a lot there. I learned, first of all, that there’s Catholics that read the Bible, and that itself was a groundbreaking idea to me despite growing up in the state named after Mary and a haven for English Catholics was its purpose in Maryland. But I didn’t really know any Catholics that read the Bible. So I made that video. That video is my first video to really take off. I got a lot of feedback on that from people saying, “Hey, it’s cool that you went to this, but you should really go to a Mass. If you want to understand Catholicism, you’ve got to go to a Mass.”
Trent Horn:
That’s the one that I felt really took off. Now, was this that you went just to Mass or you went to Latin Mass?
Austin Suggs:
Yes. So I went to a low Latin Mass [inaudible 00:03:59]
Trent Horn:
That was it. Yeah.
Austin Suggs:
I didn’t know anything about the liturgy wars. I just found this church.
Trent Horn:
Oh, no, I love that you call it the liturgy wars. I know because you’ve been around in Catholic circles for long enough to know what goes on with that because it’s interesting. If you get on the internet, there is a vocal contingent. People identify as Catholic who are strongly inclined to the traditional Latin Mass. Of course, I have great respect for the traditional Latin Mass. I’m more of a fan of the Eastern divine liturgy. We’ll get into that here later about your experiences with that. But that’s just so interesting because I remember it’s like, Protestant goes to Latin Mass and everyone’s, “Oh, my gosh, what’s going on here?” They just wanted to see that. I think it just really took off from there.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. That video really did and you can know the extent of my ignorance in that. So I went to this Latin Mass at St. John Cantius, which just happened to be one of the closest Catholic churches to my school. Then I thought, “Oh, that was interesting. I should go to an English Mass.” So I did that and being someone who makes videos, I was like, “Well, maybe I’ll make a comparison,” having no idea this whole debate existed and-
Trent Horn:
Totally.
Austin Suggs:
-the comments that that had before [inaudible 00:05:10]
Trent Horn:
That makes you a really interesting barometer because Catholics have disagreements about liturgical preferences, the Latin Mass, the newer Mass and Novus Ordo. But for somebody who’s just coming in just completely blind to it provides a neat, honest perspective, I feel like, of the different liturgies because you have no reference frame.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I thought it was a fun video to make and I found it really interesting. It just so happened that the other church I went to was the cathedral church for Chicago. So I got to see two beautiful experiences of Mass. I think I picked up on some things about the type of people the two might draw, in the most broad generalities of course, and St. John Cantius being maybe a bit of an extreme example. I don’t know. I know it’s a very famous one, but I remember making comments about the fact that the people that came to Cantius came in buses because they all had six to eight kids, and there was a lot of the people were having head coverings and just kind of a different demographic. But honestly I enjoyed both of them, so it was fun to see it as an outsider.
Austin Suggs:
I think that’s one reason that the channel has had some growth of… I think people either A, think it’s interesting to see this outside perspective, and also I think I get a lot of people who come to my channel who see a bit of themselves in me. Maybe they’re a bit further down whatever line it is in their life. So maybe they reflect on their experience being a Protestant who investigated Catholicism, became Catholic or became Orthodox, and I get comments all the time that they feel they get to see their own journey in slow motion. Now, I don’t know exactly where this will end up, but I think people enjoy it for that reason.
Austin Suggs:
So after I started doing those things, I had a lot of brilliant people asking me questions I didn’t know the answer to. I thought, “Well, the best thing I could do is go find the smartest people I can and ask them these questions,” and so that’s how I started doing interviews.
Trent Horn:
Right. So then after that, it seems like you wanted to do a spiritual and intellectual investigation looking into… You’re starting off as a Protestant, someone who goes to Moody Bible Institute, but looking at Catholicism as well as Orthodoxy. So are you still continuing that journey of assessing different theologies, or how is that going?
Austin Suggs:
Yeah, so definitely. I would say… There was part of me when you said you were someone that wanted to go do this, I think that’s in part true. I feel like it also fell in my lap and there were times that I love it. And there were times that I thought, “How did I get myself into this? My life was so much easier before I asked these questions.” But with that aside, I’ve continued doing that. I’ll say it’s been a real journey. I think at the very beginning of it, there’s this real heightened sense of existential angst as you become aware of all these different traditions, many of them making claims that have something to say that, well, some fundamental things that you believe might be wrong and of course that’s uncomfortable, especially when those people are really bright and you don’t have answers to all their questions.
Austin Suggs:
So I feel at the very beginning, there’s this really heightened, “Oh, my goodness, do I need to convert tomorrow?” Then I continued looking into these things and I feel like that sense has gone down slightly, but only because I’ve seen that many of these issues are really, really complicated and I’ve gone into a second layer of, “Okay, this isn’t going to be something I figure out in a month’s time,” nor do I think it is something I should figure out in a month. Also there was this point, so just for people who may not know my story as well, it was during this time I got engaged maybe a couple months into this, and I’m getting married now in a week and a half. And so-
Trent Horn:
Oh, wow.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I’m sitting in our half-furnished apartment getting… All of my camera gear is in boxes, which is why I’m sitting here on a laptop. But it was during that time I also began talking through these things with Eliza, my fiance and soon-to-be wife, probably wife, by the time this comes out and I wanted it to be something that we could talk about together, and we’re long distance. So I wanted to bring her along, and so she’s been in some of the videos that I’ve done. I’ve taken her to a Latin Mass and a regular Mass. I’ve taken her to a divine liturgy, and I wanted it to be something, “Okay, we’re starting marriage. This is something worth investigating well,” and in my opinion, I know people look at these things differently, it’s something worth investigating together. So that’s where I’ve been at now.
Austin Suggs:
I’ll also say I graduated two weeks ago, and so as much as what people see on YouTube is all my investigation of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I’ve had a couple other things going on that kind of decreased the amount of time that I can spend just investigating this. But to give a short answer, to finish that very long answer, yes, it’s something I’m still looking into and I do enjoy it.
Trent Horn:
Sure. I guess originally when I wanted to have… It’s so funny, I sent you an invite, but it got lost in the email ether and then COVID happened and well, I think COVID was happening, but there was just so much stuff that was going on. I think what originally prompted me a while back I wanted to have you come on the channel was you had put out two videos talking about, I think, what was holding you back from Catholicism and from Orthodoxy because you did feel attracted to those traditions. It was just an interesting thing what was holding you back and obviously your thoughts probably evolved or coalesced or anything since then. From what I can recall, there were specific doctrinal concerns with Catholicism, maybe it was the papacy or some mariological doctrines.
Trent Horn:
Then, so it was funny, I was going through that, listening to them and I was thinking, “Oh, man, I wonder what Austin’s going to think about Orthodoxy because these are really distinct Catholic things, but still not like I really want this Protestant stuff instead,” because there’s a difference between I’m not sold on Catholic doctrine X versus I can’t give up Protestant doctrine Y. Those are two very different kinds of objections, and it seemed, at least at that time for me more like the former: It’s Catholic doctrine X that’s giving me trouble, distinctly Catholic doctrine.
Trent Horn:
Then for orthodoxy, I was really excited. I’m like, “Oh, what does he think about that?” I found it interesting that one of your concerns was more that you didn’t know if it was really something that could be a part of your tradition because you’re in the West’ it’s more of an Eastern thing. So, yeah, I am curious to see what’s, if anything, has changed a lot from that time when I wanted you on to come on the show.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:11:57]
Trent Horn:
If I summarized it right. Yeah.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I think you summarized that well. I think I’m not sure I did a great job in those particular videos. But sometimes when I talk about these things, I try to divide them between, well, I describe as head and heart issues because I try to recognize that I’m not just a brain on a stick. I don’t have this view from nowhere and operate solely as like, if I can line up all the right doctrines, as much as I’d like to say that. There’s a part of you that maybe has this struggle on a different level that you would hope to subordinate under the more reasonable things.
Austin Suggs:
So I think you’ve highlighted that well, that on the Catholic side, I highlighted maybe some key distinctive doctrines, and as I’ve gone through this process, I’ve tried to slowly refine my thinking because I interview so many great people from all these perspectives that I can often become while I’m sitting there with you, I hear all these great things and I’m sitting there with someone else who holds opposite opinions and they also sound really smart. So I’ve been slowly working on some documents to try to see, “Okay, what are the key claims? And then what are the unique claims,” to work through those things. So I think the last time I identified some of those in that video.
Austin Suggs:
In the Orthodox video, I did bring up that idea of a sense of foreignness, just of do I have to become Russian to become Orthodox, which is a question that’s certainly been answered in different ways that, okay, there’s ways for Westerners to become Orthodox clearly. But there’s just that instinctual sense for me at that time, at least, that I highlighted. I also talked about, and this is something I get very many different answers on as well, a sense of exclusivity within the Orthodox church. Not necessarily ethnically or nationally, but in terms of is there salvation outside the Orthodox church?
Trent Horn:
I see.
Austin Suggs:
You’ll get the, “We can say where the church is, but not where it’s not,” or that kind of line or there’s people who hold much more tightly to only within the canonical bounds of the Orthodox church. If it’s the latter, that’s just something that I personally struggle with not only doctrinally, but that is part of it, but also just on an instinctual level of having met so many people that I would call brothers and sisters in Christ, that that would be a really hard pill for me to swallow. So hopefully, yeah, that helps summarize it, but I’m happy to dive into any of these things and talk about whatever.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. I mean, I have so many things that I’d be able to bring up here. One thing that’s interesting, we bring up with the Orthodox, I think sometimes when we’re trying to understand what worldview we should belong to, sometimes we can remove a worldview or a belief system or a religion if we just instinctively can say that a part of that belief system is not true. Hopefully, it’s a union of head and heart because to write off a whole system, you should be pretty strong. But that’s how I feel about non-Christian religions, what they say about the resurrection of Christ because obvious, if they say Christ didn’t rise, then I can’t sign on board with them because I’m very confident he did.
Trent Horn:
Similar for me, that’s why certain Protestant denominations… I was talking about this, I forget. Oh, I was talking about Cameron Bertuzzi actually, recently. That video should air soon. I told him during my conversion experience from being a mere Christian to being Catholic, there were certain denominations right off the bat I knew I can’t belong to this because I’m positive this denomination is wrong on baptism or this denomination is wrong on eternal security, and so it starts to fall off the board if there’s…
Trent Horn:
So for me, I don’t hold the view on the possibility of salvation for non-Christians. I would be a hopeful inclusivist, I guess might be a term. So I do believe it is possible and should not be confused with probable, but possible for those who are not Catholic or not Christian to be saved. That’s essentially what the Church teaches in Vatican II, documents like that.
Trent Horn:
So I’d be in your same shoes, that if there was a denomination where it was hard and fast, unless you are a publicly committed member of this denomination, you’re not going to heaven. It’s something I would have a very hard time wrapping my… I wouldn’t be able to accept that either from what I know about God’s justice, his love, fairness, things like that.
Trent Horn:
So is there any doctrine, I guess within Catholicism… I mean, it doesn’t sound there’s one that rises to that level of, “Yeah, that’s false.” Maybe there are just some you’re at, “I’m not really sold on that.” You see how the difference it would be between, “I have a really bad feeling this is just not true,” versus, “It could be true, but I’m not sold on it.” Maybe are there doctrines that go between those two ways of looking at it?
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I think that’s a great way of putting it, and I think that’s the reason why, for instance, I get a lot of people that will tell me that because of my videos, they’ve become Catholic and I’m at a place where honestly, that doesn’t particularly bother me. Because of the way that I see it of I haven’t been sold on certain things. I look at it in terms of, if you take that mere Christianity kind of view that you’re talking about, the reason I’m Protestant, I would say, is that in the vein of Protestantism that I see myself in would be it’s just a smaller set of doctrines that I’m holding to as a whole. I know that might have problems and I’m happy to get into that. But I would say in those core things, I would share those in common with Catholicism. And in the points that differ, while I haven’t been sold on them, I don’t see them as things that are deeply troubling to me.
Austin Suggs:
Now, that might be deeply troubling to some of my Protestant friends, and that’s fine enough. But that’s the way that I look at it right now. Yeah. So I think you summarized that well.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. I love this because so I’m working on a book right now about the parallels between when Catholics and Protestants dialogue with each other and when Christians and atheists dialogue with each other.
Austin Suggs:
I’ve heard you talk about this a bit. I’m excited to hear more.
Trent Horn:
Well, I’m excited to send you… I’ll send you a copy. I’m looking for Protestants to send a copy of the book to before it goes to print, but actually when I’m done with the rough draft because I want Protestant buy-in. They may not agree with all the conclusions, but I want to make sure I treat Protestantism fairly in this regard because I’ve noticed these parallels, even what you describe here, because I can imagine you and an atheist talking, and an atheist may say something like this:
Trent Horn:
“Look, Austin, you’re Christian. I’m an atheist. I actually agree with you about a lot of things, like the physical world exists. There’s morality. Human beings matter. We ought to do good to one another. We should try to explain things. I agree with you on a lot of things, but I’m just not sold on this other stuff you want to bring in like the existence of God, the inspiration of the Bible. So I agree with you on some things, but I’m just not quite sold on this other stuff. There’s smart people on both sides of the issue and it’s hard for me to work through it.”
Trent Horn:
That’s where I see sometimes the parallel. I feel when atheists and Christian dialogue it’s we agree on physical reality exists. The question is, do we need more to explain that? Sometimes I feel like Protestants and Catholics, we agree on something like scripture, for example, is inspired or something like that. But the question is, do we need more in this system? I’m not quite sold on all the other stuff you’re bringing in that has a lot with it.
Trent Horn:
Where my concern lies, and honestly, as somebody who would want every person to be in full communion with Christ’s Church, I would be concerned about treating Protestantism as if it is just an assumed starting point. Like, it’s like, “Well, I just start here and I have these beliefs. Should I add the Catholic beliefs to them?” I really do believe everybody has to say, “Okay, can I justify my starting beliefs?” So for me, in my conversion experience, I just looked at the arguments, say, “Okay, God exists. Historically, Jesus rose from the dead.” And then the question is, “Okay, well, where do I go from there?” This is what I mentioned with Cameron. I don’t think there’s kind of a jump from just, “Hey, there’s a God and he raised Jesus from the dead,” to suddenly now what’s my authority? Is it this canon of scripture? Is it scripture and tradition or is it scripture, tradition, and a magisterium? I don’t mean to ramble too much. We can go back and forth.
Trent Horn:
But I would be concerned say, “Okay, I’m definitely confident about Protestantism at least it’s. I believe in all the things that it has. Should I add stuff to it?” I always think the mirror has to be held up to say it’s kind of like when you interview people about the papacy and they say, “Well, isn’t a tested here and does this Bible verse really show the papacy? Does the evidence stack up for it?” The argument that I’m trying to put forward now more in my dialogues, it would not be so much, “Hey, can you prove Catholicism from the Bible and history?” I think more interesting question is if you use the Bible in history, is there more evidence for the Catholic view of authority or for the Protestant view? So it could even still be below 50% confidence. I’m just wondering which has more than the other. That’s what I’m toying around with and playing around with now, I guess, not to play. These are important questions, but I ramble. I didn’t mean to do that, but your thoughts.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I think I have a lot of thoughts, and I’ve heard you talk about this a little bit, so I was wondering if it would come up and I’m glad it did because I think it’s an interesting conversation. I think I agree with you in part. I think in ideal situation, I think we would start carte blanche or tabula rasa there, and we set out and say, “Okay, I’ve been convinced of this proposition: Jesus rose from the dead and he’s God.” Okay. Even if that’s all you’ve got and then, “Okay, now which authority claim am I going to adhere to?” Is it the Catholic Church? Is it is the Protestant church? Orthodox Church? Et cetera. I actually like that. As an intellectual experiment, I think that’s really good.
Austin Suggs:
I think my struggle with it is how that plays out in real life because that’s not exactly how I came to these beliefs even if maybe I’d to say that’s how I did, that I sat one down one day and I just looked at all of the history and said, “This is true.” Now, I have done investigation into the resurrection and I very convinced of the-
Trent Horn:
But were you raised Christian?
Austin Suggs:
I was, yes. So while I did have an experience of pushing away and then it was actually through a lot of natural theology that brought me back in high school in part, I was raised in a Protestant home. So that’s where I found myself. So I think when I first started investigating these things, I tried to do that a bit, to kind of remove myself. One week I’d be at a Catholic church; one week I’d be at an Orthodox church; one week I’d be at a Protestant church, just trying to really say like, “Okay, if I pulled myself out of this.”
Austin Suggs:
Then I found just on a personal level, and this could just be my own wiring, that I found that difficult for my spiritual life, to kind of be hopping around so much. I thought this isn’t good for me. So I’m going to plant myself in what I know and try to continue investigating these things even if when I go to a maybe contemporary non-denominational service, there’s things I might not agree with. I found, okay, I am not a completely detached person. I have been raised and formed within a tradition of faith. So I need to have some grounding while I investigate these things so that my spiritual life doesn’t become completely hindered because of an intellectual pursuit. Does that make sense?
Trent Horn:
No, it absolutely does. If someone just treats it as just an intellectual puzzle and that’s just all they’re doing and they’re neglecting their prayer life, they’re neglecting community, I think that can really be problematic. What I’m concerned about sometimes in… And it’s so interesting to see this. I also mentioned this to Cameron as well because Cameron is kind of in this journey as well, in the Capturing Christianity Channel because he’s interviewing people and he’s very open to Catholicism possibly. Well, he has said it’s possible it’s true. A lot of things are possible. But he sees it as a legitimate possibility. So… Shoot, where was I? Where was I going with this?
Trent Horn:
Well, to bring it back. Okay. My concern might be something. So I understand that. I guess the other thing I’d be concerned about and oh, sorry. Here’s what it was. I have noticed it’s more common for me to find Protestants who are willing to publicly talk about their investigation of Catholicism than it is to find a Catholic or an Orthodox to publicly discuss their investigation of Protestantism. I’ve always found that to be just kind of interesting. I don’t know if within Protestantism, because there are so many different denominations one can be a part of, maybe it’s just more accepted to have that spirit of inquiry. I don’t know if that makes sense. But you just don’t find too many people like Catholic YouTuber, “Hey, I’m going to these Protestant churches and I’m going to investigate it.” You don’t find that as much as compared to Protestants who investigate things or investigate Catholicism. Do you notice that?
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I think you hit on the idea there about how Protestants maybe view denominations because for instance, I grew up in a non-denominational church, but had I grown up Presbyterian, it wouldn’t, maybe a 100 years ago it would, but I don’t think now it would be that momentous of a thing for me to say, “Actually, you know what? I think I might be more of a reformed Baptist,” and my Protestant friends wouldn’t think that’s a big deal. They might want to have some conversation about infant baptism or something like that, but there’s less… So I think the denomination is seen as almost not entirely separate, but we have these core truths, which I think many people talk about fairly of you guys really struggle to determine what exactly those are, which is a great conversation to have.
Trent Horn:
Well, you know, that’s funny. In about five hours from now, I’m going to have a discussion with two Protestants, an Anglican and a Calvinist on this very question: Can Protestants coherently agree on what are the core doctrines of Christianity or Protestantism? I’m really excited to talk about it with an Anglican and a Calvinist, a low church Calvinist, which I think will make it very evident there’s that lack of agreement.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I think it’s a great… I’m excited. Let me know when it comes out. I’ll have to watch it.
Trent Horn:
Sure.
Austin Suggs:
But where was I going with this? Oh, yes. So being formed for instance, in a place like Moody. I went to Moody Bible Institute, got a theology degree there. It’s explicitly interdenominational. So Moody has a statement of faith that students have to agree to. But the professors come from… I have had high church Anglicans, low church Baptists, or do we have any? Probably some Presbyterians, all over. Then within the student body on a Sunday morning, students go to probably hundreds of different churches within probably dozens of denominations or so. That’s just normal. So at least it’s normal to my experience.
Austin Suggs:
I think for that reason, for a Protestant to say, “Oh, I’m investigating Catholicism or Orthodoxy,” well, it has had people wonder if I’m completely going off the rails at Moody. People have asked me that. There is also this understanding of, “Well, you still fundamentally believe the gospel, right?” Oh, so you might add some extra trappings on that, which I don’t think is a quite fair understanding of Catholicism or Orthodoxy. I think to make that conversion is to say something profoundly different about denominations. But within a Protestant worldview, how we think about denominations, they’re kind of secondary to this core idea of the gospel. So that’s maybe one reason why. [inaudible 00:28:28]
Trent Horn:
Yeah. Could somebody go to Moody and sign the statement of faith? I haven’t looked at the statement of faith in a while. I wonder if a Catholic could because they’re all, a lot of them are different. If a Catholic could sign that and attend there, or if it would be contradictory?
Austin Suggs:
I sparked no small amount of controversy, at least within my channel, by screenshotting the things that I had to sign and asking if a Catholic could sign it. Some people interpret it wrongly, as me saying, “I am a Catholic except for having to sign this.” So I think that was one reason for somebody to comment. I’m not sure would be the final answer. To me, it wouldn’t feel completely intellectually honest given a couple of the ways they say things. But it does come down to, which is another thing we could talk about, how you interpret those statements. So what do they mean when they say justification by faith? Because if we can word it just like the joint declaration on the doctrine of justification, maybe we can get it there.
Trent Horn:
Well, it reminds me of when the Catholic philosopher Francis Beckwith… Now he converted to Catholicism, oh, gosh, I want to say something like 20 years ago. He used to be not only an evangelical, he was the president of the Evangelical Theological Society. So when he converted to Catholicism, in order to avoid discomfort among people, he resigned from being president of ETS. But I think he said that in good conscience he could have signed the ETS statement of faith, that it wasn’t worded so narrowly. It’s like if you put something like, “We affirm that only a 66-book canon of scripture is inspired.” I’ve seen statements of faith that are worded that way. That’s clear to keep Catholics and Orthodox out the door. But I think some people at the time said if an open theist can be in the ETS, why can’t a Catholic be involved here? Because even within Protestantism, it’s so funny. It’s like there are going to be people who are if you go to Moody, I don’t know. You go there. So you’re an alum now. Could a Universalist go to Moody?
Austin Suggs:
That’s a great question. I don’t think a Universalist could. There’s actually some very interesting things that are very specific. Like, they affirm a traditional view of marriage within the statement of faith, which is I think more specific than some of the other things. Not that I disagree with it. But I think that sticking points for a Catholic on Moody’s statement of faith regard the way they talked about the Bible. I think they might have used the “sole infallible.” I don’t remember if they said it that way. Then the way they word justification by faith was very much like a Reformation way of saying it. But yeah, to your point though, I do think that’s an interesting dynamic.
Austin Suggs:
I don’t know if you’ve had him on your channel or if of you know him, but a Dr. Matthew Thomas, he’s a Catholic convert and he has that same story of he taught at Regent, or he still teaches at Regent, converted while he was teaching there and said, “I can still in good faith sign this.” Now they have more of an Anglican influence there. So it might already be a bit closer in that way. But it is intriguing.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. So another point that I’d want to raise just in your journey as you’ve looked at Catholic churches and the Orthodox, and I think also one has to keep Protestantism. I understand the need for a spiritual home base so you’re not totally disconnected from God. But I also worry a little bit about, especially someone in your position and others who feel like they have a mountain of data to research before they can make a decision, that you can have a kind of analysis paralysis. It’s like, here’s all these smart people on either side, who am I to break the tie between them? It’d be like if you were going out trying to buy a house, and you’re looking and you’re looking and it’s just so hard. It’s a big commitment. And sometimes you want to just get back home to your apartment where you’re at now. At least you can go here and you can relax and be at home. Maybe you’ll find a good house out there. Maybe you aren’t, but at least you have your apartment right here.
Trent Horn:
I would worry about, not that Protestantism is an unfurnished apartment, well, some forms of Protestantism, low church that have hardly any images, it feels like an unfurnished apartment to me, frankly. That it kind of becomes that from being a place to make sure you’re still connected with God, to being a refuge from analysis paralysis where someone just remains there because they cannot decide amongst other options. Because for me, one thing that impelled me was, well, I started reading the Bible. You could have called me Protestant. But I felt like, wow, the authority that’s embedded here. I don’t see sufficient evidence to prop it up as the authority. I need to find something else. So it’s more like my house is burning down and I got to go get into another one. So I don’t know if that makes sense.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah, I think it does. I think again, experientially, I can resonate with that idea of even if it’s not what I’m trying to do at times that, yeah, going back to a Protestant church can at times feel a refuge from the analysis paralysis. That’s something that I am trying to work on now. Like I said, it took me longer than I would have liked to really start trying to systematize some of this data, and I’m not going to be the guy like Cameron who is going to have like a Bayesian analysis on this fascinating approach to it. That won’t be me.
Trent Horn:
I just, and most people, I think most people just try to say, “Okay, inference to the best explanation.” What view explains a lot and has the fewest problems, might be a way to look at it.
Austin Suggs:
I think that’s a really helpful way of looking at it because I’ll say, when I started this, I had very much a mindset of, “Okay, I am going to go out and find out which one is true. No air gaps in this reasoning. I’ll be a 100% and that’s when I’ll make whatever decision.” I’ve gotten to the place now where I really do see it as more of a probability type of thing, which I know might make some people uncomfortable. I get comments and emails all the time that I’ve proven without a shadow of a doubt that Catholicism or Orthodoxy is true. And I always wonder what are the mechanics of that proof? But in any case, I do think it’s a matter of probability.
Austin Suggs:
I’ll say there’s things that I remember specifically from my interviews and you know this. When you interview a lot of people, you’re thinking about your next question, so much of it you’re going onto the next one, maybe that day or the next day. You only remember so much. But one thing I specifically remember from my interview with you that has left an impression is you asked me, and I still don’t know I have the exact answer, but I think it’s a high priority question of what would it take? Because I think that’s a question that we don’t often ask. It’s, “Well, when I’ve determined it’s true. When I’m convinced.” But what is that bar? It’s a difficult thing to put your finger on. But I think it’s an important question to start with. I’ll say I’ve taken different approaches early on. I was actually looking at this before our interview just for fun. I had copy and pasted a list of the 255 Catholic dogmas and color-coded it according to my level of like, okay, like [inaudible 00:35:57]
Trent Horn:
Where did you get those from? Like, Ludwig Ott, or I’m curious where they [inaudible 00:36:00]
Austin Suggs:
I have no idea.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So you’ve got a list. Yeah. It’s okay, go ahead.
Austin Suggs:
For whatever… And I took it that way and realized this is not functional. The odds of me going through all of these and proving them all. So I’ve tried to hone in on the question of authority because I do think it is the question. You pick that; you kind of see the other dominoes fall and more picking a system rather than trying to individually align all the doctrines, even though the latter, I think, it says something about my Protestant upbringing that my first instinct is, “Okay, let’s go doctrine by doctrine by doctrine,” and maybe a bit about modern individualism of “I’ll see if I can prove each of these rather than which house do I want to live in.” That is something I think about as well, not to ramble too many on different tracks here-
Trent Horn:
No, you’re fine.
Austin Suggs:
-but that idea now that I am getting married and thinking about kids and everything like that down the line, it’s this question not only of which is intellectually true, but where can I go and grow in faith, myself, and my soon-to-be wife and kids, Lord willing. Like, that’s a question that presses on me a bit more now too, I think, than when I started asking these.
Trent Horn:
Okay. That’s interesting because I think if you look at the teachings, you can do one pass is you have a standard. What standard do I use to determine if a denomination is true or an authority structure is true? And you can do one pass to say, “Okay, is anything in this false?” And then that would be disqualifying, but you might just get to the point, “Well, is it all true or is most of it, at least I can have certainty that it’s true?” I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that particular approach.
Trent Horn:
So I guess next two questions, looking at just Catholicism and Protestantism, the Orthodox might pop its head in here. I don’t know. Well, I guess what would you see as being the biggest problems with the Catholic view of authority and the biggest problems with the Protestant view of authority that you still have to grapple with?
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. So for the Catholic view of authority, we’ll start there. I would say the papacy is the biggest question and I think in many ways the question because, again, I think if you solved that one or solve, whatever we want to use that word to mean here. I think that kind of is the linchpin of the argument. So for me, that question has become not just is this a crazy idea? Which is where it started. A pope? That’s not in the Bible. To saying, “Okay, there’s good arguments for these.” Are the arguments convincing? And that’s the mode of thought I’ve been working with. I do think it’s interesting, the way you put it of it doesn’t even have to be greater than 50%. Is it just better than the other, which is something worth grappling with.
Austin Suggs:
But at least so far I’ve been asking, am I convinced of the papacy? While I’ve seen arguments that I think raise its credibility significantly, I haven’t gotten to the point where I think specifically on more biblical grounds, which is getting to that, which arbiter are we going to use, that I’ve been convinced that, “Okay, this is the God ordained way.” I have become convinced that there’s a primacy for Peter, that he has a special role there. Yeah, I guess I haven’t gotten from there to a Vatican I definition of papal infallibility allowing for doctrinal development, which I think is something we all should affirm for what it’s worth.
Austin Suggs:
On the Protestant side, the biggest problems with it I think are that lack of consensus. So if the Bible is our authority, it can become difficult functionally to see how that works out given the problem of interpretation. I think it can be overplayed. I think sometimes the problem of interpretation can be argued against in such a way that Catholics wouldn’t want to apply that to their own teaching per se. Maybe in an inverse of the way that Protestants argue like atheists. But I do think it can be problematic in the sense of, okay, if the Bible is our authority, whose interpretation or how do we get to some type of consensus where this works without endless division? So I think the question of unity is probably the biggest problem with the Protestant view of authority even though I want to be careful to say that I think Sola Scriptura is maybe caricaturized or poorly understood by Protestants to be something that’s a bit too simplistic. But nevertheless, I do think that would be the place I would point to for a problem.
Trent Horn:
So that’s interesting there. How would Orthodoxy fit into this? Because they might say, “Well, we don’t have a Pope, but we still, we recognize Peter as a first among equals. But we have sacred tradition. We have these other…” Sorry, I got a call on the other line, even though I set my computer to do not disturb. Hoping my wife’s all right. I’m sure she’s fine. Someone might try to jump in and say, “Well, if the papacy is just your main problem, where would Orthodoxy?” Because for me personally, when I want to share my Catholic faith with others or help people to understand the papacy, I feel the papacy can’t get off the ground unless someone is already convinced Sola Scriptura is false and there’s some notion of apostolic succession. So for me, I feel like it would be hard to wrap one’s head around the…
Trent Horn:
In fact, that’s why I do a lot of different debates and dialogues on these issues. But I try not to do debates where I’m too far apart from the other person. Like, I wouldn’t debate a Jehovah’s Witness on whether Christ had a divine and a human will because we’re so far apart already on who Jesus is, it wouldn’t be a very fruitful discussion. In much the same way, I won’t debate a Protestant on whether Mary was assumed bodily into heaven because we’re so far apart on the question of how to answer whether that question, that we have to really be closer. I think it’s similar with the papacy.
Trent Horn:
So for me, for the papacy to make sense, if you believe, “Well, I can’t hold to Sola Scriptura. It’s contradictory or I don’t see the evidence for it, and I do see good evidence the authority of the apostles continued on in successors,” that seems to open the door more to Orthodoxy or kind of Anglicanism. What do you think of that somewhere middle ground, which would be between non-denominational Protestantism and Catholicism, this kind of Orthodoxy or possibly Anglicanism? How does that fit into the equation?
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I guess I’m trying to decide whether to take those in turn or whether to just lump them together. But I think for Orthodoxy, I think it is attractive for many Protestants for this very reason, that it’s not Catholicism, for a lot of people is a very solid point for Orthodoxy for better or worse there. But I would say that my struggle with Orthodoxy is if I’m making that jump to some type of magisterial authority, I’d really want it to continue in a more robust way than I see it continuing in the Orthodox church. So for me-
Trent Horn:
Go big or go home.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I guess. Now that’s not to say that there’s not things I love about the Orthodox Church. In fact, when I think more on that spiritual level of where is it that I can just seek Christ, having gotten to talk to Orthodox monks and such, like the Jesus prayer, things like that. I think there’s such a vibrant spiritual life there. But I do worry a bit, and this will get me in trouble, but half the things I say do on these grounds-
Trent Horn:
Me too. It’s okay.
Austin Suggs:
There’s this sense of if I’m going to make that jump, it feels like a half step at times in terms of magisterial authority because I think the idea of a magisterium in a Pope is actually a really great idea. That functions well, theoretically.
Trent Horn:
As Cameron would say, there’s a high prior probability, which would be the Bayesian way to look at it, that if God were not going to restrict revelation to the Bible alone or Solo Scriptura. “There’s revelation outside the Bible, revelation.” Everyone knows what I mean. If Sola Scriptura is not the means God chose by public revelation, it sounds like you’re saying a more robust magisterium would make sense, or there’s a higher prior probability than just something that’s half in, half out between the two of rejecting Sola Scriptura but not giving a really suitable authority, a living teaching office in its place.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. That’s a great way of putting it. Cameron is much better versed in philosophy than I am, so I’m grateful for his higher prior probability paradigm there.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. So I guess for me, and I guess my exortation or recommendation for you or for others, this is something I want to explore too to help look at the debate from different ways, is I might say, “All right. I have a problem. Here’s the Vatican I definition of the papacy. Can I use the Bible and church history to get there?” And it’s like, “Well, we get somewhere,” people will say, “But I’m not fully there.” My exercise would be, “Well, why don’t you take the Chicago Statement of Inerrancy or Moody’s statement about the Bible, like a Protestant or the Westminster Confession of Faiths or the London Baptist confession about scripture, when it says all that we’re to believe are found in these books, and anyone learned and unlearned can arrive to the basic,” I forget how it’s phrased in Westminster.
Trent Horn:
I guess my encouraging people who would say, “Well, I’ve done the Bible in history. I can’t get to Vatican I papacy.” Can you get to Westminster confession on scripture or London Baptist with the robust terms? This particular canon inspired, every one book is inspired, inerrant, the only infallible rule of faith. I would worry that it’s like with Catholicism, it’s like you got this big, robust target and it’s easy to poke holes when you make a lot of claims. It’s like if you make a lot of claims it’s like, wait, it’s easy to start poking holes in them. If you don’t. If you’re more modest, it’s easier.
Trent Horn:
My concern though is that Protestantism may appear modest at first, but actually has somewhat robust authority claims. I would just ask people, yourself and others, do the same exercise. Can you get Bible in history, not just to a vague idea of Protestantism, but to a particular articulation of Protestant authority, that if it’s the one you live by, you live by whether it’s Westminster, London Baptist, whatever it may be? If you can’t get to the papacy that way, can you get to this Protestant articulation of authority? I guess, like I said to you earlier, if not, is there one you get closer to? That’s what I… I don’t know if that makes sense.
Austin Suggs:
It does. Yeah. I think this would be a fascinating area for your book. It seems to overlap with the idea of Protestants arguing like atheists because I think the Protestant instinct on that is to say, “Okay, if I can’t get to the Catholic claim, then that’s a problem.” Because as a Catholic, I have to get there. If I can’t get to the Protestant claim, well, I have this paradigm of semper reformanda, reformed and always reforming. I can maybe just make this one a little better. I see the problems with that. I see how that can create so many denominations. So I think it’s something we’re thinking about. I think that is maybe the knee-jerk Protestant reaction of, “Well, if I can’t get to 1689, I can just remain Protestant and tweak that understanding. Or if I can’t get to the Westminster confession, I can get to that and tweak it.”
Austin Suggs:
Now I know this is an area the Gavin Artland has been someone that we’ve both talked with, trying to correct a bit within Protestantism, to say that there is authority structures within the Protestant church. It’s not just you’re doing it all by yourself. I think that’s a good idealistic goal for Protestantism, but I think just the theological impulse or the cultural impulse of Protestantism is to do more of the former, of just saying, “Of I can’t get there, well, maybe I can find what is the best I can get to.” So I think also for me, the question would be not only where can I get to, but is that a good system of being able to say I can get here and then either just fall back to what seems like this lowest common denominator, or do I have the right to tweak things? [inaudible 00:49:11]
Trent Horn:
Well, it reminds me a little bit of like a Christian and an atheist talking, and a Christian will say, “Well, you should believe God exists because you can’t explain where the universe came from or why we have these moral duties to one another in an atheistic universe. Even if you aren’t fully on board with Christianity, atheism itself, denying the existence of God, you’re left with these peculiar facts about the universe that remain unexplained.” I think a Christian would have a hard time if an atheist said, “Well, maybe I don’t have a full explanation for it, but I can just start with morality exists even if I can’t fully explain it. I can come up with a moral system even if I don’t need Christianity to bolster it. I’ll just start with that as a given and move forward and see what happens.”
Trent Horn:
It sort of reminds me with some Protestants who might say, “Well, even if I can’t explain how I can have certainty that this is the canon of scripture; these books are inspired; they’re inerrant; they are the sole and fallible rule of faith.” I can just make it a brute fact that I just start from and work out in the same way. I see a parallel there of wanting to have, at the very least, here’s the foundation I can start with, even if I can’t fully explain it because I can get some traction with it. I would just say, look, eventually the bill is going to come due of explaining this foundation of authority because if you don’t, things will start to get undermined.
Trent Horn:
I think we do see this in Protestantism with… It’s funny, when I was preparing for my dialogue later tonight, and Father James, who’s an Anglican, the person who’s one of the people I’ll be talking to, was saying, “Well, no. Maybe Protestants don’t agree, but Anglicans agree. We do have doctrinal agreement.” I think, “Well, yeah, until a significant portion of you say, ‘Well, no marriage can be two men or two women.’ And so you’re Episcopalians that get excised.” It’s, yeah, you have agreement with Protestantism until there is disagreement, and then you just have another church that pops up. So I don’t know. I guess those are my thoughts on that, if that makes sense.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. It definitely does make sense, and I think it’s a great thing to be thinking about. I think there are parallels there. I think maybe my best answer is it’s something I need to think through more. I’ll say I’m excited to hopefully have a bit more margin to think about these things. There’s a possibility I’ll be writing a book in the next year about looking into these things, which would be an awesome opportunity to be able to sit and have some more focused opportunity to think about these things. But I think that it is worth pondering deeply. I’m looking forward to your book coming out. I think I’ll say-
Trent Horn:
I-
Austin Suggs:
Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just going to say-
Trent Horn:
Well, I was going to say. I was just… Thanks.
Austin Suggs:
Go for it. You probably [inaudible 00:52:01]
Trent Horn:
You owe me a nonspecific brand of Cola. Yeah. I guess my advice when I’m just seeing people, and to parallel the atheist-Protestant comparison here, is to resist the temptation to keep a treasured part of reality through a brute fact assertion without going deeper. So whether it’s an atheist who just takes the existence of the universe and moral laws and other things that seem to cry out for an external explanation saying, “Well, your external explanation has some dicey elements to it. I’m just going to keep it as a brute fact.” I feel the same way about the essential elements of the Protestant view of authority, at the very least. I keep digging. That to me is, I think…
Trent Horn:
It’s kind of funny, right? It’s like when we want to evangelize people, how do you get people to believe in the good news of the gospel? I find in the modern world, it’s very difficult to get people to believe in the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ if they are not convicted of the bad news of sin. That’s why it’s called good news. At least in the pagan world, 2,000 years ago, pagans were depressed about the afterlife. You die. You go to an underworld. It’s depressing. Life was bad news and the gospel was real good news. Nowadays, sin, death, there’s not as much bad news to people. So to get them to see, “No, what you have right now, there’s something fundamentally broken about it that’s really problematic.” I don’t see it as creating the impetus. So whether that is for an atheist to consider the gospel, I think there has to be a conviction of bad news before good news.
Trent Horn:
I think this similar dynamic arises for me with Catholicism and Protestantism, that sometimes I think Catholics share the faith. Like, look at, and I think they are beautiful, the teaching of purgatory is beautiful. The communion of saints, there’s a lot of beautiful elements. I think the good news of Catholicism doesn’t create that impetus to avoid analysis paralysis unless one is constantly nagged by a bad news that there is something eating away at the foundations of Protestantism that makes it not a safe position to hold. So I guess that’s my message for you and for other Protestants who are out searching. Look, I have good news to share. I think that the introspection would be important. So I’ll end it there. I want you to have last words and put your thoughts together, all that.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I think that’s helpful. I think the image that you gave of, and I’ll put it as a question, I guess, is Protestantism that safe apartment to find respite in from the home buying search, or is it a place that’s on fire that really gives you an impetus to find that house? I agree with that. I think maybe the only thing I’d say to Protestants who are in similar shoes to me is that buying a house, or in this case something much more important, finding an ecclesial home, while very important, is important enough to not rush as well. I just worry that I think that impetus is a good thing. I know, having sat in my channel only for a year-and-a-half of doing these things, we’ve gotten messages from people who have in that time period become Catholic, left the Catholic church, become Orthodox, become Lutheran.
Trent Horn:
Well, I think that the analogy here is similar to what you’re going through. How long were you engaged?
Austin Suggs:
I was engaged for 15 months.
Trent Horn:
Right. So I think it’s like if you’re investigating these claims, it’s like you don’t want to be the person who gets married next week. But you also shouldn’t wait 10 years to get married because you got to look at every single thing. It’s about finding that balance.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. I think that is a good analogy because I do think it’s very fair. I’ve heard people, and I think they’re mainly scholars who, I don’t know if they have tenure and just have a whole lot of time, but when they describe how someone should go through this, it’s, “Yeah, you should go period by period, the Anti-Nicene, the Nicene, the Post-Nicene fathers and see which one makes the most sense.” I’m thinking like, to do this on a realistic level, like great inquiry, this would take a lifetime and I don’t want to do that either. I don’t want it set a false clock on it, like in six months I’ll have an answer because that feels arbitrary. But I do hear you on that as well. That’s the first time I’ve heard someone use engagement as a metaphor for that, but I think it’s a really good one.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. I don’t want Protestants, people if their relationship with Protestantism is, “Hey, we’ve been living together for so long. Might as well get married.” It’s like, no, there might be other options out there. Don’t just slide into it, basically. It should be something more of having that discernment. But I think you’re right. That’s why I think you’re a good model for this for other people to look at that, yeah, you don’t want to prematurely jump into changing your entire worldview, but you want to avoid taking so long and looking at everything that you end up sliding into a belief system you just happen to have grown up in or have had for a long time.
Austin Suggs:
Yeah. Yep. I would agree with that. I’ll say I’ve also had conversations with people of the investigation period is not the most comfortable in a lot of ways, and it’s not the one I want to be in forever. So I agree. I don’t want to default there. I don’t want to just resolve the tension as quick as I can to make that dread go away. But I do think that, again, and as I think about getting married and having a family one day, I would like to be a man of a tradition to set down roots there and not make this a forever balancing the scales, but seeing, “Okay, this has the highest probability. I think this is true given my limitedness, but this is what I’m going to live into.”
Austin Suggs:
I wouldn’t say I feel that level of confidence with any tradition right now, but I’ll also say, as I said earlier, that I have tried to make myself not just in this no man’s land, but in the meantime to continue tending to my soul, if you will because I think hanging out in that no man’s land for too long, at least for me, I don’t find spiritually productive.
Trent Horn:
No, I think that that’s fair. But I think you’re also in a great position that you can also continue to reap spiritual benefits from attending Mass or divine liturgy or other things like that. So yeah. Keep us informed and I am excited for where the channel goes, and we’ll be praying for your spiritual journey, Austin.
Austin Suggs:
Awesome. Thanks, Trent. Let me know when the book comes out and maybe I can have you on to chat about it.
Trent Horn:
Oh, yeah. That would be great. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I’m guessing just for people to check you out, they should just go to Gospel Simplicity on YouTube?
Austin Suggs:
Yep. Gospel Simplicity. That’s where you find me. Or if you want to go to gospelsimplicity.com, you’ll find all my stuff there as well. If you try to reach me in the next couple weeks, I will be otherwise indisposed and-
Trent Horn:
When you’re searching, when you have found it, you should take some time with your beloved. That applies to your spouse. And then if you discern your final faith tradition, maybe it’s Catholicism, maybe not, we’ll see, take some time private time with beloved as well. So I wish you the best of luck. Enjoy. My advice for you is this: Once you guys are newlyweds, stay out late and go out to dinner a lot. Enjoy that because when you have kids, that’s the end of that. So just saying.
Austin Suggs:
I’ll take that advice.
Trent Horn:
Or it’s not the end of it. Suddenly, you’re a victim of the babysitter’s racket. I mean club. So that’s what we remember. We were like, “Oh, man, we should have gone out more before we had kids.” Well, thank you so much. Everybody, check out Gospel Simplicity. Austin, thanks for coming on the Counsel of Trent today.
Austin Suggs:
Thanks for having me.
Trent Horn:
All right. Thank you guys so much. And by the way, just a reminder that if you want access, everyone who is a patron of Counsel of Trent gets access to my Arguing About Abortion course at the School of Apologetics. So go to trenthornpodcast.com if you want your free copy of that. Thank you guys so much. I hope you have a very blessed day.
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