In this episode Trent sits down with Fr. Deacon Dozier to better understand our Orthodox brethren and how to restore unity between East and West.
Welcome to the Council of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent:
When people talk about Christianity, they usually understand there’s three major branches, Catholic, Protestant, and usually on this podcast or on Catholic Answers Live, you hear a lot about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. But there’s one branch of the church, one branch of Christianity, that often gets left out of the discussion, and it shouldn’t because it encompasses a large number of people, and that would be Eastern Orthodoxy. Maybe you’ve never actually met someone who’s Eastern Orthodox or never even seen the Eastern Orthodox Church. In a lot of the world it’s very sparse or non existent, but in other parts of the world, especially in Russia, in Eastern Europe, it is the dominant religion, the dominant Christian Church. In fact, there’s somewhere between 200 to 250 million Eastern Orthodox around the world are the second largest Christian communion behind the Catholic Church.
So how should we understand our Eastern Orthodox brethren, and how can we better restore unity between the Eastern and Western branches of the church? Here today to join me, to tell us a little bit about that and help us understand Eastern Orthodoxy is Father Deacon Daniel Dozier, a Byzantine Catholic Deacon and the chief learning officer for the center of in ministry development. He holds graduate degrees in leadership and scripture, is an associate professor of scripture at the St. Cyril Methodius Byzantine Catholic Seminary, and an academic associate in Catholic leadership at the Franciscan University of Steubenville. He is also a member of the United States Eastern Catholic Bishops committee on catechesis. He has a wife, children and grandchildren and he lives in the Pacific Northwest. Father Deacon, welcome to the Council of Trent Podcast.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Thank you glad to be here Trent. This is wonderful.
Trent:
I’m glad you’re able to stop by and I love your new booklet, 20 Answers: Eastern Catholicism, we have this 20 Answers series we’ve been putting for a few years now here at Catholic Answers. I remember when it first started, I kind of wrote a third of the booklets, and then I think I officially retired from the 20 Answer series. When I went back when it was like the first like 20, 25 booklets I think I did like eight or nine of them and then I’m like, “I’m going to take-
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Oh, my goodness.
Trent:
I’m going to take a break from 20 answers. And now my contributions are a smaller minority because we’ve covered so many topics, and we’ve gotten great people to write on them, who have background that I think is important, and your background in the Byzantine Catholic Church… Are you with the Eparchy of Phoenix?
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
I actually am with the Eparchy of Phoenix. Yes.
Trent:
Okay. But I mean, it’s large. I mean, it covers a lot of geographic territory.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Probably it covers the whole swath of the Western Coast. It’s about 13 states, including Hawaii. And for those who may not know an Eparchy is actually what in the Roman church would be called or the Latin church would be called a Diocese. So our Bishop is based in Phoenix, and yet he has jurisdiction over all these territory. So it’s a rather large Eparchy.
Trent:
It certainly is. Yeah, I attend a Byzantine Catholic Church here in San Diego. And I remember looking there as… I don’t know if it’s published by the Eparchy or not but it’s a little magazine or a newsletter called Light of the West, and I think it had a cover story about the Byzantine Church finally reaching out to Hawaii, and my services are always available to do a mission or a speaking opportunity there, if you want to-
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
I think you might have to get in line. I think there’s a long line of clergy as well that can’t wait to visit and do pastoral ministry among the sand crabs there so it’s pretty exciting.
Trent:
Right. So your booklet covers Eastern Catholicism, but it also goes into Eastern Orthodoxy, which often overlap when people discuss these issues. So why don’t you tell us a little bit more about yourself, and how you’ve become interested in writing about these things because you also wrote a book on Eastern Orthodoxy coauthored with Dave Armstrong, I believe?
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
That’s correct. Yeah. Dave Armstrong actually this was the third edition of a book that he had written called Orthodoxy and Catholicism: A Comparison. And after going through a number of additions he decided with the third edition, he wanted to have some Eastern voices, some Eastern Catholic voices in the new edition, so he invited me to do some coauthoring, and it was a great discussion, great dialogue and a great collaboration as well. But my first association actually with the Eastern Churches came in my college year. So when I was an undergraduate at Franciscan University, I was blessed to know a Melkite monk who lived nearby, who was encouraging me from time to time to expand my Latin Catholic horizons, because I had been in Latin Catholic, and was also interested in exploring more aspects of Christian spirituality, especially with the fathers.
And so he said, “Well, why don’t you go visit a Byzantine Catholic Church, and there’s one just down the road.” So sure enough I went. And it was actually the St. Thomas Sunday for that particular liturgy. So this is the liturgy after Pascha or as it’s sometimes known in the West as after Easter. And I remember just experiencing something that was very unique, and for me it resonated so much in fact I went to my friends and I said, “I’ve always believed in the resurrection, I just don’t think I’ve ever experienced it that way before.” And I knew in that moment that this was something I needed to explore further.
And so over the course of a number of years and studies, and visits, my family and I we ended up joining a local Byzantine Catholic Church in the Midwest, and I was very committed to serving there in catechesis as well as my wife was being trained by the deacon who unfortunately passed away a few months after my training. And then it was actually some 10 years after that, that I was ordained a deacon and to serve in the church and have been serving now for 11 years as a Byzantine Deacon.
Trent:
So wonderful to be able to hear. And honestly, I felt the same thing. I started attending a Byzantine Church during the Great Fast, which in the West will be called Lent. And that was actually helpful for our family. I think it was good to start our experience of attending a Byzantine Church during the Great Fast because that’s when… I think it’s the Liturgy of St. Basil. Whichever liturgy it is, it’s like an hour and a half or an hour and 40 minutes long.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
That’s right.
Trent:
So it’s like, “Well, if we can find our spiritual fulfillment, and if we can make it through the Great Fast, it’s like, oh, well, we can…” Well for us especially the length of liturgy it’s more because we have children. We have a two-year-old and a four-year-old. But honestly I’ll tell you they’re better behaved in a long Byzantine liturgy than in actually a shorter Novus Ordo because there’s always just kind of a one continuous prayer or a song or a hymn it feels like going through the entire thing. And I agree with you celebrating Pascha or celebrating Easter, just that glory of the resurrection just really shines through in every doxology, every hymn. Absolutely.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
That’s right, and if you’re not aware that Christ has risen from the dead, if you attend a Byzantine service at Pascha, you will know by the end of the service, because we sing it so many times. And you’re right. One of the beauties, I think of the East, and I think it’s also of the West, but I think it is a distinctive of the East, especially with our iconography is that there’s so much there to really engage the whole person. So it’s in the singing, it’s in the incense, it’s in the bells, it’s in the icons, and all of that is meant to communicate the radiation or the radiating light of Christ, and that I think is a something that speaks to all ages.
Trent:
Now, before we get to Eastern Orthodox, let’s catch up with some of our listeners to give them a one-on-one. What are the differences between Western and Eastern Catholic Churches, because many people think of Catholic Church they only think of the Western or the Latin rite. What are the Eastern Catholic Churches, and how are they Catholic?
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Sure. Well, I think in order to answer that question we really have to think about the founding of the church, when Christ obviously, his holy Advent, he came to Earth, he came to establish his kingdom and it was One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And he established it on the foundation of the apostles, these men that he called to be his emissaries to go out into all the world to preach the gospel, to baptize in the name of the Holy Trinity, and so forth. And when we read that in Matthew 28, we have this sense that it’s not just for a one particular time or a one particular place. It really is all the nations. And so God’s intention originally for the church was that it would be a church of the nations.
And so as the apostles fulfilled that commission after receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, if we go to Acts chapter two, verse 42, we see that the church and its common life is really expressed through four key elements. It’s Apostolic Faith. So believing in the apostles teaching. It’s Apostolic worship. We’re sharing in the sacred mysteries as we call them in the East of the sacraments. It’s Apostolic Communion. So it’s that common life among Christians. And then also Apostolic Leadership. So we are actually being shepherded and governed and sanctified and taught by men who are successors to the apostles and bishops, priests and deacons. So this model of Apostolic Faith, Worship, Leadership and Communion that really forms the framework for the spread of the church around the different nations. And so as the apostles then went out, they establish these churches that followed all these four elements.
And as the gospel was planted over time, the people who became believers, initially it was mostly Jews in the diaspora, that is outside of Jerusalem. But as Gentile Christians came in, you started to see the same faith, worship and common life expressed in unique ways according to the artistic, cultural, linguistic, genius of that particular people. And we’re talking here in terms of the establishment of churches, really, churches around the Roman Empire, both the Eastern side of the Roman Empire and the Western side of the Roman Empire. And that really becomes the basis for what we understand today as Eastern Catholic Churches and Western Catholic Churches. And for many people, they’re kind of surprised too when we start talking about churches in the plural.
Trent:
Right.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Because the Catholic Church is truly a church of churches made up of 24 self-governing churches, One Western Church, which is that the Latin church as we know it, which is the largest of all and best known. And then we have these 23 self-governing churches that are really the heirs of all those wonderful churches planted by the apostles and their disciples, over many generations.
Trent:
And so I think this is helpful for us to understand that you have these churches that are planted, grow and celebrate the faith in different ways, in the West celebrate in Latin and the East celebrated in Greek or in other areas, in Aramaic or Syriac or Coptic. So it lived out in different ways, but they’re all still One Church, because even these other 23 churches, they’re still in union with Christ One Church and recognizing, for example, that the Bishop of Rome has the succession of the Apostle Peter.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yes, exactly. And that I think is one of the aspects of being a church of the nations, so it’s its unity and diversity. It’s like St. Maximus to confess where he talks about the church being the icon of the Holy Trinity, where you have unity and diversity all brought together, just as in the Trinity One God Three Persons. So we have all the different churches of God, existing in unity and respecting the foundation, the Petrine Foundation of the church, which is tied directly to the Apostolic Foundation. And so as they spread the gospel, it’s the apostles all in union together under the headship of Peter, if you will, as the first among them. And that continues on in the church today.
Trent:
Now, let’s talk then how when we have these Eastern Catholic Churches that have developed for hundreds of years, nearly 1000 years, then most people are probably familiar with or they’ve heard of or can at least answer on a test, when the quote unquote Great Schism was. Eastern and West split apart in 1054 although, of course, it’s much more complex than that as any large historical event is. Most people understand there’s the Eastern Catholic Churches then after 1054, over simplified, of course, you had the Eastern Orthodox, how do these Eastern Catholic Churches suddenly become something different, a different church that we now call the Eastern Orthodox?
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Well, in fact, if we think about the heritage of the Eastern Churches, they are, in fact, Orthodox Churches, that are in communion, not just with Rome, but with each other too. So that’s one of the things I appreciate and value in being an Eastern Catholic is that it’s not just I’m in communion with other Byzantine Catholics of different stripes, or that I’m just in communion with the Roman Church. It said I’m in communion with Armenian Catholics, Coptic Catholics, Ethiopian Catholics, Siram Alabar, Siram Alancar, the whole wide array, the whole mosaic of Eastern and Western Catholicism. So the foundation of our churches are truly orthodox.
Now what happened over time… And there were a variety of reasons, you mentioned the 1054 date, which is more of a symbolic date as you allude to, than an actual date of rupture. But it really set the stage, I think, for that rupture that eventual estrangement, that took a couple of other centuries to really be ratified. And so as these churches began to separate, part of the separation occurred for a number of different reasons, one being linguistic, where you have a separation of language, the Greek and the Latin. At one point, the whole empire spoke Greek, but now you have more of an emphasis in Latin in the West and Greek in the East. And so it’s hard to speak, it’s hard to talk to one another, theologically in terms of the terminology and so forth. Also cultural differences, different political interests, ecclesiastical interests.
You also have in the Byzantines, which isn’t oftentimes talked about from the perspective of Christian Unity but this 117 year period of iconoclasm, that exists over two phases in the Byzantine Empire where basically, the Byzantine Church was in heresy and out of communion with all of the other Catholic Churches because of its embrace of iconoclasm, which was the teaching of the Emperor. So the Emperor was attempting to foist upon the church believing himself to be like an apostle, a false teaching, which was to reject icons as heretical. And so as a result, there was this rupture in communion that took a number of efforts and even some councils to rectify, but that did harm the union between East and West, over that period. And in fact, it was one of the things that helped to precipitate the establishment of a new Roman Emperor in Charlemagne.
And so you have a division in the Empires between East and West, that also reflects a growing division among the churches. Now, of course, Byzantium, became Orthodox again, and became right believing and once again in the communion of the Catholic Church. But that created some problems that were latent. And then appeared later on, especially when you started to see the ascendancy of the Emperor, assuming a role that was really meant to be Petrine. And this imperial ecclesiology develops as a result of that. So this separation occurs. You have finally a number of centuries later, the Council Florence, and there’s a recognition of catholicity in both of the churches, the churches of the Latins and the churches of the Greeks, and yet there’s also a recognition of rupture. So it’s really viewed as an internal schism between two churches as part of the One Mystical Body, and so there’s a number of theological bates that occur and so forth.
But as a result of really not being able to come to agreement on some critical issues. Even though the Orthodox patriarchs sign off on the union, as part of Florence, they go back to their homelands and the people utterly rejected, and so they renounced the reunion Council of Florence. And as a result of that, that’s really reached where you see a formalization of the schism. And then finally, just to conclude here, the Eastern Catholic Churches then were part of the fruit of the Council of Florence where there was a desire, they saw, “Look, this union is possible.” So we want to live in full communion with Rome and with all the different Catholic Churches. So some Eastern Catholic Churches or… Excuse me, Eastern Orthodox Churches, re entered communion with Rome. And so you have a division then between… Not just between the Latin Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. But between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, even sometimes they’re their own mother churches. So that’s really where you see the development of the Eastern Catholic Churches.
Trent:
So just to summarize, for our listeners, there are multiple causes that cause the East and the West to grow apart linguistically, geographically, politically, culturally, even theologically, when you had the Emperor in the East proposing the iconoclast heresy saying that you can’t have graven images. You can’t have icons, which of course, icons are now a staple in Eastern Churches because God became incarnate became man, he made himself an icon. And so we can represent them in that way. So you may hear the word, “Oh, this person is an iconoclast,” it means someone who shatters an icon, we use lately as a counterculture for reference. But that’s what was happening there. And then we move forward and grown apart more and especially 11th century, you have disputes. And I think you might be able to comment on this. The problem is like the East and the West sometimes impose too much on one another without respecting the legitimate diversity that can exist within the Catholic churches.
So for example, there was a lot of controversy then about whether you could celebrate the Eucharist, the Eucharist had to be celebrated with leavened bread or unleavened bread, because in the East you use leavened bread every year. It’s risen like the risen Christ. The West unleavened is what they use to Passover and people work themselves up into a tizzy, but now we see what… That’s the legitimate element of diversity that we can have.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Exactly, exactly. Yes. And it’s not to say that those issues were not important. And so the Eastern Catholic said, “All these aren’t important. We’re just going to ignore them.” It’s that they took a more ironic position relative to the differences and said, “Look, we can live together despite these differences,” because it doesn’t necessarily call into question the essentials of our faith again, going back to the Apostolic Faith, Worship and Leadership and so forth. [crosstalk 00:20:06] and the teaching of the father’s.
Trent:
Right. Let’s go to commonalities then before we talk about disagreements, and then how to interact with our Eastern brother and especially with some Orthodox brother, and let’s talk about what we share in common. We share so much in common that what you also spoke about earlier, is to understand this is not separate ecclesial organizations or denominations like how we see Protestantism because the Eastern Orthodox continue to have valid apostolic succession and valid orders. And so they’re truly celebrating the Eucharist and an Eastern Orthodox, Divine Liturgy that is Christ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity on the altar, those priests are validly ordained. The problem here is you use the word schism, which refers more to like a recognition of authority rather than a difference in doctrine, per se.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yes, and I think that’s the fair distinction to make there. And then I think it’s an important one. So from the Catholic perspective, and you can reference this in magisterial teachings, both people and conciliar we view the Orthodox as true particular churches. So as you say, a valid hierarchy, a valid sacramental mysteries, they valid apostolic succession. We have a shared faith on almost every critical point, and we say all really truly every critical point. Despite what some of the polemicist may see sue, so if you happen to go visit some Orthodox websites sometimes there’s this exaggerated false dichotomies that are presented as… Showing that there’s essential differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism in matters of apostolic belief in it, and it just isn’t the case.
Trent:
Well, let’s dive into that because some people… And I’ve seen this some people will try to say there’s these large differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but I think sometimes they’re just comparing Eastern Orthodoxy with Western Catholic theology. And that’s why I believe that Eastern Catholic Churches have a wonderful role in helping to build that unity between the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church at large, because you could say, “But wait, many of these differences…” Yeah, that might be different with Western Catholic theology. But if you look at genuine Eastern Catholic theology, it lines up pretty well with what you’re saying is happening here in the Eastern Orthodox, well, would you agree with that?
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Absolutely. Because in fact, as I said, we’ve been Orthodox Churches in full communion with the other churches in the Catholic world. Part of this aspect of our union is that we don’t have to renounce anything that is truly distinctive, and distinctively Eastern. Our goal is to be as fully Eastern and fully Catholic as we can be. And so if you look at our liturgies, if you look at our patristic sources, our common life in terms of how we’re established now, there may be some differences, some accommodations, if you’re going to build a church of the nation’s that means sometimes you got to compromise a little bit. We’re the only ones really trying to do it. And so there are some things that may differ, but in its essence were truly united. So for instance, one of the points of controversy was that Florence and even somewhat prior to that, was this use of the filioque, this is the clause “and the Son” which is inserted into the Creed of the Council of Nicea Constantinople. And so, this insertion-
Trent:
It’s the part where it says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and the idea of the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son was controversial.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yes, that’s correct. And so it was actually because it was inserted in a Western context, and not as part of the effort of a particular Council, that the Orthodox didn’t quite understand its origins, of course, we know historically was developed in answer to Arianism in some distinctive pastoral situations that were going on in the West. And so, as the Creed later began to be added to the Western liturgy, it was the Creed that included the filioque whereas in the East, it had always just retained that Creedal formula without that clause being added. And so, as a result, you have this misunderstanding. Well, you’ve changed the Creed, you’ve changed the faith, when in fact as you go into the theology of it, it really isn’t necessarily representative a change that is contrary to really the even the Eastern tradition so long as it’s properly understood.
Because within the Eastern tradition, there are aspects of the teachings of the Fathers, for instance, that seemed to indicate what you might understand to be filioque except it might be expressed as… Instead of, from the Father and the Son, it would be expressed as from the Father through the Son. And that’s especially true among the Cappadocians.
Trent:
Right. So that would just be an example in the Catechism talks about this that you can express this with different complimentary language, as long as that the expressions don’t become too rigid. Now, let’s throw one more example before we get to kind of the heavy duty stuff. I’ve also heard people say, “Well, Eastern Orthodox aren’t like Catholics because Eastern Orthodox don’t believe in original sin or the Immaculate Conception.” And that seems to be another example of we do believe in these things, but it’s different language. What do you think?
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of truth to that. And if I just might comment, I’m sorry, on the filioque peace. The one thing I would say is that in the Byzantine Churches, this does not include the Maronites Eastern Catholics, but in the Byzantine Churches, the Greek Churches, we do not include filioque in our liturgy. Again, it’s that example of unity and diversity.
Trent:
And the Pope doesn’t include it when he says master Divine Liturgy with Eastern patriarchs.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
That’s correct. And in fact, the Latin Church in Greece does not include it, out of respect for the setting that they’re in. So yeah, there again, it’s that diversity, that more irenic approach that I think becomes very important because it’s about charity. It’s truth and charity and unity. But the coming back to your point about the original sin, which we sometimes refer to as the ancestral sin, or the Immaculate Conception. Again, these are examples where they become wedge issues unnecessarily because quite frankly we don’t want to understand each other. We want to stake out positions and be very polemical, and create these false dichotomies. I’ve even heard people say it’s been asserted that well, we don’t call St. Agustin, we call him Blessed Agustin because he taught all these heresies like original sin, which really is a rather cartoonish way of thinking about it, expect my-
Trent:
But the Orthodox would call him that.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yeah. Some of the Orthodox, and I’ve heard some Eastern Catholics who have adopted some of this unwittingly, some of this polemic that is, is sometimes you find it among the Orthodox, and we were asked to return to our traditions. So we go to our sources, we go to the Orthodox, and sometimes we have to be discerning about, what are we reading here? Is it truly our tradition or is it more of someone’s particular take on that tradition? But in this particular case, they’re saying that it’s Blessed Agustin. I talked to my good friend, Father David Anderson, who was the protege of Father Alexander Smith, and he said, “They refer to him as Blessed Agustin as a superlative.”
So it was Blessed and St. Agustin because he was so venerated among the Eastern Fathers, especially through his commentary in Scripture. So, a lot of this is more of a modern rereading, based upon some concerns that came out in the 20th century especially around original sin. And it’s a false dichotomy to where you’re trying to say, “Hey, look, we’re so different from the West because of this,” and there were some problems with Augustine’s view of original sin, but it wasn’t to the extent that it would make him a heretic. And the church I think, has corrected any problems or issues that might be see that especially in the Catechism.
Trent:
Right, because the Catechism makes it very clear, original sin, because I hear sometimes the East try to say that Catholics teach that in original sin we are guilty of the very same sin Adam committed but the Catechism is very clear. Original sin is not a sin of commission. It’s a description of the deprivation of original justice and holiness that Adam and Eve could no longer pass on to us. That’s something east and west should definitely be able to agree on.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Absolutely. And you even hear that echoed in the teachings of St. Symeon the New Theologian in his commentaries on Genesis, his catechesis on Genesis, he’s very clear, he talks about this inheritance of guilt. But clearly he doesn’t mean the personal guilt of Adam. He means basically the state that humanity inherits, which is a state of corruption and death. And it’s where we need to rely on Christ, we have original sin and therefore we need Christ. If you read the whole baptismal liturgy, for instance, in the Byzantine tradition, we are moving from the kingdom of darkness, to the kingdom of light. So all of us need to make that move. And we see that sacramentally in our liturgies.
Trent:
And I think what’s hard we difference between East and West on this is sometimes in the West, definitely within Protestantism, and maybe somewhat in western theology. Salvation is looked upon as being brought from guilt to innocence before God, especially among Protestants whereas in the East we would probably say salvation is about being brought from death to life, especially life in God or theosis, being made partakers of the divine nature. And so here we can say, in a sense, we leave this guilt we’ve inherited, and are made innocent and immaculate before God, but also brought from death to life. So it’s complimentary.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yes, and in fact, we can think about death in a number of different ways. There’s different types of death. So there’s the death of the body, and the separation of the soul, but then there’s also the death of the soul, through a spiritual death. And so Christ, through His resurrection heals us of both types of death, and even personal choices of sin are themselves a choice of non being, it’s a choice of death. And I think that’s another way to kind of appreciate maybe a different emphasis in the East, but that is also complementary with the West.
Trent:
Well, let’s go to the biggest difference now because I think if you have a dialogue between Eastern Orthodox and Catholics, even among Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, when we get past all of these issues, it seems like the biggest stumbling block or what’s preventing unity is an understanding of what the papacy is. So how would you describe how the Eastern Orthodox view the papacy? And what steps have been taken to try to build unity without compromising on this institution that God has given us?
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Well, the root of our tradition is we have a shared tradition of Petrine primacy, where the understanding is, first of all, that Peter was the first among the apostles. And so in his exercise of ministry, he was to be the one commissioned by Christ to strengthen the brethren. I mean, this was his calling, he was to be the rock of faith. He was to be the guarantor of unity. In fact, the church of Rome was regarded as the matrix of Christian Unity, and the Apostolic See where Peter gave his life and witness to the gospel through martyrdom along with Paul, the See of Peter and Paul became known as the Apostolic See, and it was the See to which all the other churches. So as the churches were built out by the apostles and founded, they began to develop in large metropolitan centers, we have what’s called the pen Turkey, where you have Rome being the first among the churches, and then you have Constantinople, which came later.
Then you had Alexandria and Antioch and Jerusalem, well, all of those churches have some Petrine Association. So there’s this sense of… This unity is definitely Petrine and in its foundation, by the will of Christ, Peter obviously giving his martyrdom in Rome. You have in the Constantinople, the brother of Peter, Andrew is commemorated there as the Petrine was believed that he had might have done some missionary work there. You had an Alexandria Mark, the disciple of Peter. Antioch was actually the first See of Peter, where he served as its leading bishop or leading shepherd. And in Jerusalem, of course, where Peter preached first after Pentecost. And thousands of souls were baptized and saved-
Trent:
And issued a doctrinal declaration at the Council of Jerusalem.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Exactly, exactly so all of these points show Petrine connection, Petrine and Apostolic connection. So the Orthodox and regarding the role of the Apostolic See, and its leading bishop was the Bishop of Rome. See that See as the servant of unity in charity, the one who presides in love. Now at the same time, one aspect of presiding in love doesn’t just mean that, “Oh, this is the church where you get a lot of affirmation and people really like you there.” It’s no, to have to preside in love means that there has to be some aspect of governance, especially if you’re going to serve as an appellate in an appellate role where, if there’s a conflict between the churches, as we saw for instance with St. Athanasius, where you have this dispute going on, and there were disputes, many disputes in the first millennium, some people try to make it out as if it was just peace and everyone got along.
It’s like, “No, that’s not the history of the church at all.” And to appeal to Rome meant that they make it… To arbitrator decision meant that you had an authority that had to be above that of the people in dispute. And so for the Petrine role, there had to be an authority to decide between people who are in dispute, and that arbitrator role was inherent in the role of the Bishop of Rome. So the Orthodox will recognize that, and that’s an important stage. I mean, if you think about the Catholic reflection, the papacy, so much is contained, in that understanding that we would accept, that we would resonate with us.
Trent:
Right. And I think the key is just moving along, because I’ve heard the Eastern Orthodox say, “Well, of course, Rome is a primacy, its first among equals.” But then there’s not really any kind of recognition of an authority beyond the other bishops not in a way that it makes the bishops not bishops anymore, like some kind of a tyrant, but a recognition of a legitimate authority. And because when you don’t have that, one of the things I’ve noticed with the Orthodox you lose unity, that some people think the papacy is a source of division. But if you look at the Orthodox in the past 1000 years, you’ve lost unity. The churches have become very nationalist, so much so that I think for any Orthodoxy, identity is I’m a Greek Orthodox, I’m a Russian Orthodox, and that’s what comes first. And so much so that the Orthodox really can’t even get together to have Ecumenical Councils on par with the Catholic Church is able to do because someone’s always able to kind of veto it and things kind of remain this kind of status. That’s at least my perspective.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yeah, no, I think you’re entirely correct. And this is where that imperial ecclesiology sometimes rears its head. It where you have national churches where even sometimes the church seems to function as an organ of the state. And again, Petrine primacy and Pope Benedict the Pope Emeritus, he wrote quite extensively about this in terms of the service that the Petrine role can provide, which is to really rise above a lot that the nationalism and the disputes among the nations because if we’re going to be a church among the nations, we have to find a way to live in peace, which means sometimes there has to be someone in charge, someone to decide when there are disputes. Now in terms of the first among equals, I think there is a large degree of truth in that if we consider the three levels of Petrine ministry.
First the pope is the Bishop of Rome. He’s the elected Hierarch, who leads the Diocese of Rome. So he has an actual diocese is a functioning bishop. So in that sense, yes, he is an equal to all the other hierarchs, there is no sacrament of the papacy. He is a bishop like all other bishops. But then you take that next level, he’s the Patriarchal head of the Latin Church. Well, here, he is the leading hierarchy among the hierarchy of the Latin church. And again, this is where you see that first among equals where he is equal to all the other Patriarchs. There’s no one right one church that is better than the other. But it’s in his role as successor of St. Peter, where you see more of a differentiation that I think is critical to understand, which is that role as the servant of unity to strengthen the brother, and not to divide the brother, and not to impose Latin rules and Norms, and on other churches but in service to that unity, to strengthen them in faith as well as in charity.
Trent:
Right. And that phrase presides in love or over love that goes back very early in the church. You go to the letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Romans to the Roman Church, while he’s correcting all the other letters of Ignatius, he’s correcting all the other churches about errors are falling into with Rome. He just heaps praise and says, “Oh, you’re the church that presides over love, worthy of obtaining every desire where they being deemed wholly, and that verb to preside over,” he also uses his other letters to refer to jurisdiction to governance, and it’s not just a mere affirmation, it’s a legitimate authority. So unless you have a thought of that I’d like to… As we draw to a close here, let’s talk about some practical ways that Catholics can interact with Eastern Orthodox and help our Eastern Orthodox friends that we know, come to appreciate the Catholic Church and just practical steps you can take in restoring unity.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yeah, because I think it’s such an important aspect of our role as Catholics to… I think back to some of the papal magisterium and some of the teachings on evangelization. And I know, Trent, you and I talked a little bit about… We’re not really talking about evangelizing the Orthodox that’s not really the intent here. In fact, the intent is to restore Christian Unity. But I think there’s some lessons in that according to the teachings of the Pope’s on evangelization that we can pull into our thoughts around building Christian Unity, and namely along three different types of activities, witness, presence and dialogue, which they see as part of evangelization. So if we want to build the catholicity of the church, we have to first of all, be witnesses to unity and humility, truth and charity among the churches. So we do this first of all by not being condescending and triumphalist in our approach.
“Hi, we’re Catholic, and we’re here to help you.” That’s not going to win over anyone in terms of wanting to be in union with you. Because, to be quite honest, we’ve all inherited the history that none of us created. And so there’s a lot of historical divisions, and a lot of things to overcome. And our first posture should be wanting to be a witness to charity, to get to know people, to spend time with them, to appreciate their perspective. Much of dialogue, in fact is about listening. It’s also about learning and it’s also about communicating without compromising the essentials of what we believe in who we are. It’s about communicating that in a way that generates understanding. So I think part of our witness when it comes to witness in truth and humility, is to be who we are truly, whether it’s Eastern Catholic or Latin Catholic, and yet at the same time understand that, just as we have cousins or family members with whom we disagree.
You can imagine if there’s a whole history and linguistic differences and so forth that develops, we want to enter into that conversation, recognizing that there have been problems. And we need to be repentant of those problems and at the same time, say, “Look, what can we do to build bridges of unity?” So I think that’s an important part of what we need to do. And I think… I was going to say when I’ve heard some Latin Catholics when they come in, they come in very aggressively asserting Western practices as though they have this presumptive, universalism. Because it’s in the Latin Church, which is under the Pope. So they start talking about Mary priesthood in a way that’s very condescending. When you’re talking to an Eastern Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox Christian, about Mary priesthood, they’re not just thinking about it in the abstract. They’re thinking about Father [Vaseal 00:42:21]. They’re thinking about Father Mark, they’re thinking about Bonnie [Arrestor 00:42:26], they’re thinking about the husbands and wives, the priests and their wives who serve their communities, and give of themselves. And so we have to be very cautious about assuming universality, when in fact, it may just be a particular tradition. So I think that’s an important part of it.
Trent:
Right. So I think to affirm that which is good and as legitimate diversity, and once we do that and build a lot of common ground, then we can start talking about “Okay, well, where do we disagree? I’d like where’s our legitimate disagreement here on the papacy?” And then we can draw from things like Pope John Paul the second encyclical Ut Unum Sint. 1995 encyclical U-T-U-N-U-M-S-I-N-T definitely our listeners look it up, you won’t regret Ut Unum Sint on creating unity through the papacy. And then I think just being a witness especially this is where I think Eastern Catholics may have a special call from God, when interacting in the same circles with Eastern Orthodox that I think for an Eastern Orthodox who’s considering unity with the Catholic Church.
It’s an easier step when the church you want to become unified with has the same liturgical practices, linguistic practices, almost the same theology that you can find in Byzantine or whichever it may be Armenian Sarah Malabar Maronite, depending on the different churches that might be… And even in the Second Vatican Council. There was the document on the Eastern Churches, it’s a light of the East, right?
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Right. Right. Yes.
Trent:
Yeah, and talk about that as well.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
And the only thing I would also add to that is, you can take advantage of opportunities to meet with Orthodox, there’s a wonderful, Oriental a lumen conference that meets every summer in Washington DC, my good friend, Reader Jack Fiegel helps to lead this, and we have Orthodox and Catholics coming together. This year, they’re going to be talking about icons. So it should be a very intriguing time. So there are opportunities to come together, and to appreciate, and value some of those differences and have a dialogue with that and charity.
Trent:
Okay, what are some resources… For our listeners, you’ll get a…. For the premium subscribers on trenthornpodcast.com for as little as $5 a month, you get all the bonus content. This week, I’ll be sharing a few questions from 20 Answers Eastern Catholicism on Eastern Orthodoxy for our premium subscribers, everyone else, it’s a great booklet I’d recommend 20 Answers Eastern Catholicism. At the end of the resources of Father Deacon that you would recommend people learn more about Eastern Orthodoxy, and how to restore unity there.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Yes, well, I definitely the one you mentioned very graciously that Dave Armstrong wrote and that I helped to co author his Orthodoxy and Catholicism: A Comparison, I think is very good. Probably the best book though to really appreciate the Eastern spiritual path and some of the riches of that is the face of God by Archbishop Joseph Araya, which, to me is just one of the most beautiful presentations to help Latin Catholics, to help Western Christians really value and appreciate the East, and he speaks in a way that is very accessible to the specialist as well as to the neophyte when it comes to Eastern Christian theology.
Trent:
Very good. Another good book is by Aiden Nichols, Rome and Eastern Churches. If you want also a historical look, and [inaudible 00:45:48] top notch theologian our listeners might appreciate. So, Father Deacon, thank you so much for joining us today on the Council of Trent Podcast.
Fr. Dcn. Daniel Dozier:
Thank you Trent. It was wonderful.
Trent:
Alright and listeners I hope you got a lot out of this. And be sure to check out more episodes, go to trenthornpodcast.com become a premium subscriber, and consider leaving a review at iTunes or Google Play and check out our growing list of videos at the Council of Trent on our YouTube channel. Thank you all so much, and I hope that you guys all have a very blessed day.
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