Trent Debates Pro-choice Callers

Have you ever talked about the issue of abortion and lost your cool, or felt like the conversation wasn’t going anywhere? Today is the commemoration of Roe vs. Wade, and so I thought it’d be helpful to model for you how to have these difficult conversations by using real conversations that I’ve had on Catholic Answers Live.

In the first conversation, you’ll see how to engage someone on the issue of abortion who is really not open to changing his mind. In the second conversation, I’ll model how to engage a person who truly is open to changing their mind and receiving the gospel of life. Our first caller is pro-choice because he doesn’t know when life begins. Ed, thank you very much for the call. Why are you pro-choice?

Because I do not believe that life begins at conception.

Alrighty. Ed, when do you think the life of an individual human being begins?

Well, technically when it’s born, as in out of the womb, but that doesn’t necessarily… I believe that abortion should be allowed up until the moment at nine months or something like that.

Okay. Before the child is born, would you agree there’s a human fetus inside of the mother’s body before the child is born, correct?

Affirmative.

What is a human fetus?

It is the potential to be a life, human being, if it comes to full gestation and development.

Okay. Well, a potential X is always an actual Y. So if I say that a bachelor is a potential husband, what that means is he’s an actual unmarried man. I didn’t ask what it potentially could be. Tell me what is a human fetus? What is that thing now?

To me, it’s not a baby, that’s for sure, and it’s not-

Is it-

… something-

Okay. Is it growing?

Yes, it is. Hopefully it is, yes.

Okay, so that means-

[inaudible 00:02:24].

… it’s alive. It’s alive then?

Yes.

Okay.

I would-

Does it-

… agree that it’s alive, as in it’s growing hopefully, if that’s what you want.

Does this living thing have human parents?

I would hope so, yes.

Okay. Well, why can’t we say then that a human fetus… So this is a living thing, a living human thing because it has human parents. How is that not a human being?

I see what you’re saying. No, I would not call it a human being because a month or so into the process, it looks like a chicken also. So-

So you think a person’s value depends on what they look like?

I wouldn’t use the word like values or stuff like that. That’s objective and emotional and not very precise.

Right, so I think, just because somebody looks different than you and I, that doesn’t mean they’re not human. I’m just going to put it to you this way, that every human embryo and human fetus, it’s growing, so it’s alive. It has human parents and human DNA.

What a human being is, a human being is just a individual living thing that belongs to the human species. If you know this thing is not a human being… The definition I gave applies to humans before they are born, from the moment of conception. It sounds like you’re not giving me a real reason as to why this is not a human being. You’re just picking birth as a difference.

Right. Kind of, I guess. Because it’s at birth that I would say that you actually are a human being because you’re not alive until you’re born. If you’re not born-

So if the fetus isn’t alive before birth, do we need abortion to kill it?

Well, I know that an acorn that turns into a tree is still just an acorn while it’s a seed, and then it’ll eventually go through its little stages of life.

Well, Ed, let me ask you this then. An acorn is a seed. It’s kind of like how you have ovum, a human egg. But an acorn, when it’s in the ground and it’s a sapling, you got that little one green chute that comes out. That’s not an oak tree, but is it a very small oak?

No. It’s a plant, at that point, I would say. [inaudible 00:05:13]-

What kind of plant is it?

It’s an oak plant.

Okay. Then why can’t we say a human fetus is not an adult, but it is a biological human being is just a very small human being, it’s a small human, just like an oak sapling is a small oak?

No, I get what you’re saying, but I think there’s many things wrong with what you just said.

Like what?

It’s not a human being because it’s not been born yet. [inaudible 00:05:47] it’s at fetus stage, it’s not-

Why does birth matter? You’re telling me that when that baby, eight-pound baby in the womb, 39 weeks-

Yeah?

It’s okay-

[inaudible 00:06:00].

So let’s say that’s nine months. Normal pregnancy is 40 weeks. So five seconds before that child moves down the birth canal, it’s okay to dismember that child because they’re in one place, not another?

Personally, because I got to think different than… Everybody thinks differently. I would not be okay at past the point of easy viability. Let’s face it, one of these days we’re going to have tank babies, and women won’t even have babies at all.

Okay, so-

They’ll be grown in tanks.

So it looks like your position’s, it’s changed a bit. All right, so I think I would ask you to reconsider your position. You see the absurdity of drawing the line at birth. That’s just a change of location. If you pick viability-

No, I don’t see-

… the time-

… [inaudible 00:06:53] absurdity at all.

Why does the difference-

[inaudible 00:06:57].

… between… What is birth? It’s just the baby is living in the uterus, and then later he’s-

[inaudible 00:07:03]-

… living on a hospital table?

Because it is out and alive, and it can grow on its own and function on its own, assuming you give it nutrients and all of that good stuff.

So-

But before that-

It can’t grow on its own, right? If you leave a baby alone, in two days they’ll be dead, right?

Absolutely. Most living things, correct, without nutrients and stuff, it’ll die, yes.

So a newborn baby needs its parents to give him food and shelter?

[inaudible 00:07:39].

But he’s still a person. But he’s still a person, even though he needs his parents to give him food and shelter.

Yes. If it’s outside the womb and alive and kicking, yep.

Okay. Well, a baby before it’s born can kick. Mom feels it-

But it’s not a baby-

… in the third trimester.

But if no-

A-

… [inaudible 00:08:00].

A human being, before birth, can kick. It’s growing, so it’s alive. And mom gives him food through the umbilical cord. Why not treat them the same? There’s no real difference.

No, there’s a whole lot of difference there. Because at like three months, if you were to put the thing out of her, it’s not going to live.

So yeah, you shouldn’t kill babies.

[inaudible 00:08:24].

Right, you shouldn’t kill babies. Is it okay to take a baby where he can live and put him in a place where he can’t live?

But it’s not a baby until it’s born.

Is it okay to take a human being and put him in a place where he can’t live? Okay, we’re about to go to a break here soon, but I’m just going to ask you one last question. Can you give me a definition, a one-sentence definition of the word human being?

No. No, I’m sorry.

Here’s what I think you’re doing, Ed. You have a prejudice toward the unborn. You don’t have a rational argument to show why they’re not human beings. You just don’t want them to be human beings. The only way you could know that they’re not human beings is if you already knew what a human being was. I feel like your position is born out of prejudice towards the unborn rather than a rational argument. So I hope that you will reconsider that prejudice and definitely give us a call back when you can.

Before we get to our second caller, I do want to let you know that the second edition of my book, Persuasive Pro-Life, is available. If you want to master how to talk about this issue, pick up a copy by clicking the link in the description below. Now I want to show you how to accompany someone who is more open to the pro-life message.

Women should have the choice, and I think also that even if we were to make abortion illegal, people are still going to get them, and I just want it to be safe for the women.

Okay, well, that part’s true. Abortions are still obtained even if it’s illegal, but you haven’t really answered why you’re for pro-choice.

I think I’ve-

Can you answer that?

… taken them from that, Caitlyn, are you worried that if you’re pro-choice, because if we make abortion illegal, it becomes more dangerous for the woman choosing it?

Yes, that’s what I’m worried about.

Okay. Alrighty. Well, here’s my position on that. I agree with you. I agree that abortion should be safe. In fact, I would be okay with abortion, totally fine with it, if it were as safe for the child as it is for the mother. Do you see what I mean by that?

I do.

What do I mean by that?

I think you mean it might be safe for the woman, but the child’s the one that’s not being able to live any longer, so they don’t get the choice.

That’s inherently the problem. You’re right. If abortion didn’t involve another human being’s life, then it’d be obvious we should keep it legal so it’s safer. For example, if tonsillectomies, the removal of the tonsils becomes more dangerous, if it’s illegal, well, we should just make that procedure legal. If the tonsils are damaged in some way, go ahead and surgically remove them. But for me, there’s no safe way to do an abortion because half the people involved always end up getting killed. I owe that one to my friend Jason in Arizona. It’s a good observation.

I guess, Caitlin… This was actually, when I was at the University of California in Berkeley, this objection was raised a lot during a debate I had, and this was my response to them. I said, “Should we keep it legal so it’s safer for bigger people to end the lives of smaller people?” What do you think?

Gosh, no. Okay, well, when you put it that way, I don’t know. I’m a social worker, so obviously I’m the one that fights for the people that don’t have a voice, so it’s hard to make this decision.

What is it about abortion that makes it so hard?

I don’t know. I understand that the fetus has a right, that the baby has a right, but I think a woman should have the right to choose too.

You see how those would conflict, wouldn’t they?

Yeah, I understand that it’s-

So-

It’s kind of hypocritical.

Well, but here’s the thing, I guess, Caitlyn. When one person, we’re talking about their right to have a life, and the other person, we’re talking about their right to live their life how they want to, shouldn’t we put the right for one person to even live it all to be at least a bit higher than the other person’s right to choose things?

I don’t know.

Would you be willing to think that over, that it’s plausible that one person’s life, that should count more than what another person wants to choose to do with their life?

Maybe.

Well, I think that’s something to think over when it comes to this issue because that’s the crux when we talk about abortion. I would encourage you, when you think about this issue, to not think about the choice because choice is a very abstract word. What abortion is, technically speaking, is it’s the removal of a child from the womb, before they can survive, with the intent of ending their life.

Now, I agree with you, men and women find themselves in difficult situations where they may choose this. But my question is this: does being in a difficult life situation give us the right to hurt other people, so we can make our situation better? I don’t think it does. What do you think?

No. Gosh, I don’t think it does either.

Okay. Thank you guys so much for watching. You can check out my other pro-life content here on the channel, and please be sure to like this video and subscribe to help us grow and definitely support us at trenthornpodcast.com.