Trent sits down with fellow Catholic Answers apologist and author of Pope Peter, Joe Heschmeyer, to discuss an argument for the papacy most people have never heard.
Welcome to The Counsel of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
Hey everyone welcome to The Counsel of Trent podcast. I’m your host Catholic Answers apologist and speaker Trent Horn. I am here at the Catholic Answers annual conference in San Diego. Joining me is our newest apologist Mr. Joe Heschmeyer.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Thanks for having me, I’m excited to be here.
Trent Horn:
We just got done with the panel. We got the live Q&A panel with the apologist. Your first one, how do you feel it went?
Joe Heshchmeyer:
I think it was a lot of fun to do. I’m a terrible judge of my own stuff, but it was great being in the presence of three people who answered questions extremely well, on ones I didn’t always have to answer.
Trent Horn:
I thought you handled yourself with great aplomb. You did a very good job. It was great. It’s fun, especially to be up there, especially for some of the questions where we could just interact with each other and have fun, a little back and forth. I’m hoping to share that with you all on the podcast. I don’t know if that episode will … One, if I’ll get the files and if I do it might air before this episode or after, I don’t know, but I’m sure I’ll get it up there. But today I wanted to ask you Joe, about the papacy, because you wrote a book Pope Peter.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Defending the church’s most distinctive doctrine in a time of crisis.
Trent Horn:
Because it really is, when it comes down to it, the one doctrine that divides Catholicism from non-Catholicism.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Exactly. There are more important. I intentionally didn’t call it the most important doctrine, right? Belief in God is more important than belief in the Pope.
Trent Horn:
The Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
But there are all sorts of Christians who believe in the Trinity who don’t believe in the papacy. That’s not enough to distinguish Catholic from non-Catholic. Even something like the structure of the church or the real presence.
Trent Horn:
Like the Orthodox.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
If you want to know whether you should be Catholic or not, the easiest one answer is the Pope really instituted by Christ. And if the papacy of that is of apostolic and divine origin, you should be Catholic. And if it isn’t, you shouldn’t be.
Trent Horn:
Well, then, you wrote your book Pope Peter, and it covers a lot of this. What I thought would be fun to talk about in this episode is an argument for the papacy, for the bishop, for Peter and his office to have this particular leadership in the church. An argument a lot of people haven’t really heard, because we’re familiar, we think about why do Catholics believe in the papacy? Matthew 16, 18, “You are Peter. I give you the keys to the kingdom on this rock, I build my church.” The classic text people debate, John 21 would be another example, “Peter, do you love me? Feed my sheep” and when I read evangelical scholars, a lot of them say, “Oh well it’s basically Matthew 16, John 21. Here’s the issue with these passages.” But there’s another passage that does relate to the papacy not a lot of people discuss, but it’s something you include in your book and you think it’s a very underrated defense of the papacy.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Actually they were there a lot of really good proofs for the papacy that I think go underrated and under discussed. But I think the one that is worth mentioning the most is Luke 22, in which at the last supper, the disciples start debating which of them is the greatest.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
And the reason I like it is because a lot of times when evangelicals say they reject the papacy, it turns out they have a really comically skewed understanding of the Pope and his role, where the Pope is the guy who just decides every issue and every doctrine and he can just change church teaching if he wants to and that’s just not what Catholics actually believe about the papacy.
Trent Horn:
They think the Pope is some king or a tyrant over the church.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
It’s something that’s at least as powerful as the Mormon president and maybe more powerful. And it’s just like that’s just not the view. And it is not a good Christian view of leadership at all and not a good view of the papacy specifically.
Trent Horn:
Because I think some people … and the passage that we’re going to talk about is I want to say, is it Luke 22?
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Luke 22. Really I like to begin it with verse 24. The heart of it is verse 30 to 31.
Trent Horn:
It’s the dispute about greatness. And I know some Protestants will say, “Well, Jesus in the dispute about greatest, when the disciples asked, who is the greatest among you, if Peter were the Pope, why didn’t Jesus say Peter is the greatest among you because he is the Pope.” The end.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
The amazing thing is if you actually read the full chapter, he almost does that. He …
Trent Horn:
Well tell us more how it points that direction.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
The first thing that I think is really interesting about this is he doesn’t say no to their question. He doesn’t say, “Well, you’re all equal. You’re all equally great.” There’s none of that. Every time they argue about greatness, he never rebukes them, he never corrects them, he always just tells them how to be greater. And-
Trent Horn:
He acknowledges there’s being greater and the greatest.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Exactly. And within … he says a couple things. In verse 28 and 29, he describes him as those who stood with him in his trials and who will judge the angels in heaven, on 12 Thrones. Which affirms that the apostles have a special authority, an eternal authority. This is a small point, but an important one for those who may be familiar with dispensationalism that uses a church age that comes to an end in which the whole apostolic structure goes away. Christ is very clear it doesn’t. And that, that leadership is something that’s enduring because it’s designed by him.
Trent Horn:
There might be … When you say dispensationalist, there’s some Protestants who would say, “Oh yeah, we have apostles, we have apostolic leadership.” But then when they die, it’s just solo scriptura.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
And actually even so, I’m thinking more like Darby and his followers Scofield, within evangelicalism, you will find those who believe in seven ages of humanity in which the church age is really just an interruption before Israel gets their country back. If you’re familiar with Tim LaHay with the Left Behind series-
Trent Horn:
I was about to say, Darby and Scofield are the originators of the rapture doctrine.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Yes. Rapture comes out of dispensationalism. Those two ideas are closely intertwined. But that views the church as a temporary mechanism and not as like an enduring institution. Christ in Luke 22 is very clear that it is actually something enduring. That is part of the nature of the church he established and doesn’t go away even with death.
Trent Horn:
Take us through the passage a little bit to show how that’s the case.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Okay, cool. In verse 24, the dispute rises. In verse 25 and 26 he says the Kings of the Gentiles worth their authorities over other, it should not be so among you. Instead, he lays out the idea that to lead is to serve and he gives himself is the example and says, “I’m among you as one who serves.” He gives this classic idea of servant leadership. And then he’s gives a bit about the 12 tribes judging the angels [crosstalk 00:06:47] you see the 12 Thrones.
Trent Horn:
They’re servants, but they have this leadership capacity over everything.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Exactly. What makes the apostles distinct is they’re called to be servant leaders over everyone. And eventually even over the angels. And then in verse 30, he says, “Simon-
Trent Horn:
Simon.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
… behold, Satan has desired to sift you and that’s like a y’all.” That’s a you plural, as wheat.
Trent Horn:
In the Greek we can tell he is specifically … because in English, when you and I say, “You do this, or hey, you,” you in the context can be singular or plural, but in the Greek, you can see definitely if it’s plural or singular. And we know here, it’s definitely plural.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Exactly. We don’t have a standard you plural in English, like you guys, yens, yous, y’all.
Trent Horn:
Hey yous guys.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
None of those quite sound right coming from the mouth of our Lord. And, but he’s saying you plural. He say you all, he’s demanded to have you all that he might sift you all like we, but I’ve … then he switches from the plural to the singular. But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail and you have turned back, strengthen your brethren.
Trent Horn:
And that’s what he’s saying to Peter.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
That’s what he’s saying to Peter, exactly. He’s just said, “Okay, you want to know what greatness is in the church? It’s servant leadership.” And all of you are called to be servant leaders for all time. And one of you, Simon Peter is called even to strengthen your brethren called even to be a servant leader, to the other servant leaders. We have of people title for that servant of the servants of God. That’s the heart of the papacy, the bishops and the successors through the apostles exist to serve the people of God, the church and the Pope exists to serve both the people of God, the church and even the other bishops.
Trent Horn:
What’s interesting is I’ve actually talked about this on a previous podcast because has sometimes the headers or the chapter headings, not even just the chapter headings, but sometimes when you read your Bible at home, there’s the little headers, right? To let you know a dispute about greatness, a dispute about taxes. I love when there’s a header over just like two verses. There’s just like the two verse teaching of Jesus and got to make sure it’s distinct. You can’t, we can’t let you read it on your own. I think sometimes a header will interrupt the dispute about greatness and then the part where Jesus tells Peter, I have prayed for you that your faith will not fail that the idea that people lose, that they’re connected to each other.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Exactly. Yeah. And it’s something we have to be very cautious of. The chapters and the verses and the headers and sub-headers are not found in the original text. I have this same problem with Revelation 12. That the last verse Revelation 11, John says, he sees the temple in heaven open. He sees the arc of the covenant and then sees Mary, who is prefigured as a temple and as an arc. You lose all of that connection if you just do a hard stop verse 11 or chapter 11, and then start reading 12 as if it’s some other book or some other word, it flows. And we can interrupt that flow sometimes. In Luke 22, I do is I breezed right past some headers in the RSV, because this is all one conversation. They’re saying, what is greatness? He says, “Here’s what greatness is, here’s how all 12 of you live it, and here’s how one of you is called the live it in a singular way. Satan’s after all 12 of you.” And you might expect Jesus in that situation to say, “Look, Satan is trying to devour the 12 of you.” You’re my chosen band. You are the 12 people I’ve picked out of all the world to follow me, I’m going to pray for all 12 of you. I’ve got time.” But he doesn’t, he [crosstalk 00:10:27]-
Trent Horn:
He picks ones.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
… prays for one of them and then tells him to strengthen his brethren. That’s an incredible show of Peter’s role in his authority. Jesus is making a point of doing things that way, even though it’s frankly less efficient than just saying, “I’m the second person in the Trinity I’ll ward him off. You guys were going to be praying to me anyway.” Or “I’ll pray for all 12 of you.” No, he prays for Peter to show us something. This is all a demonstration. This is in scripture for a reason. And we’re being told this for a reason.
Trent Horn:
This connects a little bit to Peter’s own letter, 1 Peter, where he talks about being clothed with humility, because it’s interesting people will say, “Why doesn’t Peter just say, I’m the Pope, listen to me in his own letter, he’s taking this advice to heart.”
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Yeah. In fact, even in Mark’s gospel, for instance, Mark’s gospel’s the one that Peter has the most influence over. As we know from 1 Peter 5, Mark is with him in Rome, Mark has believed to be his translator and then is the one who goes out from him to Egypt to found the church there. Mark doesn’t include all of Peter’s good moments in his gospel. If you want to find the almost anti Petrin seeming gospel, it’s the one Peter had the most role, it focuses on his faults. It doesn’t focus on all of his glory. And in-
Trent Horn:
Mark’s gospel.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
… Mark’s gospel, yeah. He doesn’t have the confession of faith with then the gift of the keys of the kingdom that’s in Matthew’s gospel, Mark doesn’t include it. You don’t have all of the high points of what Jesus offers. The closest we have to a gospel coming from Peter, doesn’t focus on this. What I mean to show by that is not therefore Peter bad, is like, therefore Peter’s humble.
Trent Horn:
Do you think that Mark’s gospel is not as trumpeting Peter because essentially he’s Peter’s close associate the church father Pius is the one who tells us in the early second century, Mark was the interpreter, he recorded Peter’s sermons. You think he just knowing him so well thinking he is not going to want me to go overboard on this.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Well, yeah. And not only that, but because Peter’s role was known and recognized in the early church, it was not necessary. And I think two examples here, one of the ways we can distinguish the true gospels from false ones is that the true gospels don’t even announce who their authors are. That there’s an interesting case for the early authenticity of them. And strangely actually, Bart Ehrman actually points to this as well. That when the first four gospels come out, they don’t need to say “I so and so.” Because everyone just knows who they’re from and they’re, they carry that authority with them. Later, false gospels pretending to be from other people say, “I’m John, the beloved disci …” That doesn’t happen in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. None of them announce here is who I am, here’s what I’m important, accept my authority.
Trent Horn:
Because people know who it is.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Exactly. Likewise, frequently when the Papacy is at its strongest, the Pope isn’t saying, “Listen to me.” In the same way that any good leader when things are going well, isn’t sending out angry emails saying “Everyone has to listen to me and obey me and follow my authority.” When your family is doing well and your kids are listening, you’re not like, “Don’t forget, I’m your dad.” That only happens when there’s that breakdown in authority when chaos emerges.
Trent Horn:
But when there’s an understanding of authority, then someone like Peter or his successor doesn’t have to thunder their claim because people already accept it. And we don’t want to re read that anachronistically back in. Awesome stuff, Joe, thank you so much for sharing with us. Where can people learn more about you and get a copy of Pope Peter?
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Catholic.com and you can go to shop.catholic.com and the book is called Pope Peter.
Trent Horn:
And you’re working on another book right now.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
I am, The Early Church was a Catholic Church.
Trent Horn:
The idea that … Constantine did not invent the Catholic church [crosstalk 00:14:17]-
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Believe it or not, believe it or not. All of the evidence I’m looking for from there is from the year 200 or earlier, and looking at things like, what do they believe about baptism, about the Eucharist, about the role of bishops and about the gospels.
Trent Horn:
I’m super excited. You all should be excited as well. Be excited about Joe Heshchmeyer everybody, newest Catholic Answers apologist, I remember they used to call me that, first they called me the youngest apologist. Then they called me the newest apologist and now they just call me that guy that does a podcast and stuff. But now you’re the newest apologist. I don’t know if you’re the youngest apologist.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
I am 36. I don’t know.
Trent Horn:
I’m 36 too. One way or [crosstalk 00:14:55]-
Joe Heshchmeyer:
March 4th, 1985. Were you before or after that?
Trent Horn:
I was January ’85.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Still the youngest apologist.
Trent Horn:
I’m I? Wait, wouldn’t you be if you’re born in March? No, wait.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
March is before. Oh, I think January, not I think it’s in July, I’m sorry.
Trent Horn:
Yeah, January. You [crosstalk 00:15:11] you’re the youngest apologist. Look at this little kid. Look at this little kid with this beard who … I can’t grow a beard, I’m so sad. Just kidding. Hey Joe, thanks stopping by. It was super fun.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
My pleasure.
Trent Horn:
Definitely check out his work, check out his blog by the way, Shameless Popery, it is amazing. Make a good, that would make a good title for a podcast. If you ever want to do one.
Joe Heshchmeyer:
Tune into this space.
Trent Horn:
I’m just saying. Thank you guys so much and I hope you all have a very busted day.
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