In this episode Trent shares a recent “ask me anything” (AMA) session he took part in with the Catholic meme discord community.
Welcome to the Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
I don’t know… Maybe I’m a little bit okay with that. All right, so I’m going to jump through these, there’s a lot here, so I’m just going to pick and choose around. There’s a fair amount of interesting ones here. Let’s see. This one says, “Hello, Mr. Horn, if you were elected as the Supreme Pontiff, what are six reforms you would make?” I would make a reform that says laypeople cannot be immediately elevated to the episcopacy and the pontificate, and have it retroactively applied to me, so that I’m not in that position, honestly.
Trent Horn:
I mean, to be honest, a lot of people do ask me, “What do you think about this thing that’s happened in the church, or that thing?” And for a while in my career as an apologist, I had commented on different prudential matters, like what the Pope did, or what this bishop does, or that bishop does, but I find a lot of times, focusing on that generates sometimes more heat than light. So what I really want to focus on in my role… It’s really hard actually. I saw some tweets earlier about issues that are political, but also affect our faith, and I wanted to write about it or reply to someone, and I was like, you know what? It’s not going to be worth it. I’m just going to be sucked into a big debate online. I don’t need to do that. I am just going to focus on doing apologetics.
Trent Horn:
So that’s why I haven’t really given an opinion on Traditionis Custodes, or the motu proprio on the Latin mass, or the synods, or a lot of other things. Now, if there is a cleric who is saying something that is false, contradictory to church teaching, I’ll say something, but if it’s just, we don’t like what they did, you can’t please everybody. There are legitimate things to say there, and there are people who do a good job, others who do not as good a job weighing in on those issues, I just don’t feel particularly called to it.
Trent Horn:
I’ll go to the next one here, because our moderator suggested this one, I believe, so I have to answer yours. “What are your thoughts on online evangelism and apologetics?” And by the way, I apologize if my voice sounds a little off, or if I cough. I’ve been getting over a cold. Maybe it’s a cold. Who knows what it is?
Moderator:
Yeah. I know you were really sick a while ago.
Trent Horn:
Well, in August, I had COVID and shingles, and this could be-
Moderator:
Oh, my gosh. I didn’t know you had COVID.
Trent Horn:
Yeah.
Moderator:
I thought you were just really sick.
Trent Horn:
No, I got COVID, but it didn’t affect me badly, but I did get shingles along with it, and shingles-
Moderator:
Oh. My goodness.
Trent Horn:
… are just the worst. So I don’t know what this could be, it might be Omicron, who knows? Thankfully, it seems like Omicron-
Moderator:
No. We will pray for you.
Trent Horn:
Well, thank you, but it seems like Omicron, it spreads a lot faster, but it’s much more mild, so that’s helpful.
Moderator:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
But yeah, so I might be, I’m still-
Moderator:
It’s totally fine.
Trent Horn:
… woozy in and out.
Moderator:
Honestly, we’re just happy you’re here, whether you’re 20% or 100%.
Trent Horn:
I will do my best to get somewhere in the 50s. “What are your thoughts on online evangelism and apologetics, with many different apps, social media platforms? Should Catholics lean in using these platforms to reach out and evangelize? Are they doing more harm than good?” Oh, this is a hard one. Honestly-
Moderator:
Yeah, I threw you a hard one there.
Trent Horn:
You did. Yeah. I do feel like in general, social media has been on average, worse for the human community than good. It has done some good, it allows people to access true things, and that’s nice, that’s really good. People find my podcast, I like that. They find Catholic Answers Live, Bishop Barron. But at the same time, they also find a lot of garbage out there, or they interact with people in very uncharitable, mean-spirited ways because the nature of social media makes you feel anonymous, or it’s not face-to-face. In social media, the paradox, it tries to connect us with people, we actually feel less connected to people than we did before. I think they’ve done surveys in the past few decades, and people have the fewest amount of real friends in person than they’ve ever had before.
Trent Horn:
So, I think that it’s a helpful seed to plant to share ideas and to share things, but if you just spend all your time there debating, or arguing, or commenting, you don’t get out in the sun and talk to real people, I thinks it’s… I think in general, I see a lot of people who lose their souls too much on social media. That’s why, like what I said with my previous statement, I don’t really post a lot. There was a time in the past I did that more on social media and I got into those fights with people. But now, I don’t really post a ton on social media, because I want to focus on the other things that I’m doing. So in any case…
Trent Horn:
Let’s jump through a few more of these. Oh, this is an interesting one. “I have a question, Trent. I’m a 100% pro-life. I know the USCCB has said that in the case of rape, it is okay for a woman to take emergency contraception, so long as it does not act as an abortifacient. Would it be wrong for a woman not to take emergency contraception, if it was guaranteed it wouldn’t act as an abortifacient? Would it be wrong for a woman not to take emergency contraception? Do you think there is a moral duty to prevent pregnancy because it is outside of a loving marriage and the sex was non-consensual?” Okay. “On a similar note, if a Catholic woman were to get pregnant and she’s unmarried, would it be wrong for her to keep the child, knowing the baby would not have a father, or it would be better for her to give her child to a loving, married Catholic couple to raise?”
Trent Horn:
Okay, so it’s two questions here. One is the USCCB, in its document on religious and ethical directives for Catholic healthcare providers, I think it’s like… I want to say around paragraph 36, it says that, “A woman who is a victim of rape can take emergency contraception to prevent conception from taking place. This is not a sinful act of contraception. Rather, this is preventing the rapist’s attack from continuing.” So the USCCB is clear that a woman can do this, but she is not obligated to do that. So even if the bishops say, well, you’re not obligated to do that, but you may do that. Which means if one is not obligated to take an emergency contraceptive, they could choose to allow pregnancy to take place, and to carry the child to term.
Trent Horn:
So there would be nothing immoral about the woman preventing the rapist’s attack from continuing, and in taking emergency contraception, or for whatever reason that she may have for herself, there would be nothing immoral about her choosing to not take emergency contraception. She could make either choice, and it would be permissible. “On a similar note, let’s say a woman gets pregnant and she’s unmarried. Would it be wrong for her to keep her child?” No, absolutely not. She is the mother of that child, and so she has, I’d say, primary obligation to care for that child, if she is able to. Just because, let’s say the father is not in the picture, it doesn’t mean that the biological mother must place a child for adoption.
Trent Horn:
Once again, she can do that, but she’s not morally obligated to do that. Imagine if we extended this principle, imagine if a woman is married, has three kids, and her husband dies, it doesn’t follow that she’s morally obligated now to place her three children for adoption, because she no longer has a husband. First, in both of these cases, the woman who becomes pregnant, or the widow, she is without a husband for now, she may choose to get remarried, or she may not choose, either one is fine. But I really do think that children having that close connection to their biological parent is incredibly important. And so, unless a biological parent is unfit to raise them and care for them, that relationship should be preserved and maintained.
Trent Horn:
So, okay. Let’s see, here’s another one.
Moderator:
Okay.
Trent Horn:
“Hello, Trent. Thank you for your time reading this. I am a huge fan of Bishop Barron’s work with Word on Fire, and engage in the culture of evangelizing.” Me, too. They actually have a local office here in the Dallas, Fort Worth area, where I live, and on occasion, I’ve gone down there to visit. I know some of the people who work there like Matt Nelson, Jackie and Bobby Angel, they’re very good people. Let’s see here. “One of the major ways Bishop Barron does this, is through introduction to be curious to the beauty of the faith. I’m curious. What is your take on leading others to Christ through beauty? How can we as ladies do that effectively, in your opinion? Do you agree with Bishop Barron’s work, or do you think that more rational and intellectual evangelizing is the way to go?”
Trent Horn:
Well, I’ll take those questions in reverse order. First, I don’t agree with everything that the theological opinion that Bishop Barron has. I did a podcast where I had a critical take of his view on von Balthasar’s “Dare We Hope That All Shall Be Saved”. I took more of a critical view of that. I didn’t call him a heretic, like some people have, but I had a critical view of it. But overall, I have some differences of opinion with him on certain things, but on the whole, I think his work is great, and I would disagree that it’s solely about evangelization through beauty. I would say Bishop Barron engages in rational and intellectual evangelizing. He does that very well.
Trent Horn:
He had a good conversation with Alex O’Connor, the atheist YouTuber cosmic Skeptic. But I think he also does a good job with his Catholicism series of evangelizing through beauty, and I think that’s a great approach. It’s not either/or. So you can engage your rational arguments, but I think that nothing can compare to beautiful architecture, beautiful art, a beautiful liturgy. That’s why I get really depressed when I see in some places the liturgy is banal, that it was tailored in a building and a style that might have pleased people in the ’70s, but now it’s dated. So, my wife and I will drive around. I remember we were looking at houses once and I said, I really love one of these houses that had a ’70s architecture to it.
Trent Horn:
And it had orange squares and grids and it was just awful. And my wife is like, “This is terrible.” I’m like, “Yeah, I know it’s terrible, but I have a soft spot for it.” But I think for a lot of people it’s off putting, and we want timeless beauty. So we want something that will draw people in. If you look at the Sons Chappelle Chapel in Paris, so many beautiful churches in Italy, in Paris, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Israel… I hear they’re talking about upgrading the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. That’s the-
Moderator:
Yeah. There’s some controversy around that.
Trent Horn:
Oh gosh, that should be a crime against humanity. Oh my goodness. But, no, I think beauty is incredibly important, and we can do that in our own faith lives of living out a beautiful faith, a joyful faith, going to liturgy, being reverent, but also sharing our faith with other people, praying with joyful abandon. I think those things are very important.
Trent Horn:
“Hello, Trent, I’m a Protestant, but I’m interested in the Catholic faith. What advice would you give me as I try to discern my faith? In the same vein, what would you say are the biggest theological points one has to agree with, to be a Catholic?” What I would say is that as you discern to read, to study and to immerse oneself in the Catholic faith. You are to attend mass, to pray before the Blessed Sacrament, to talk to people who are Catholics. Find a good local Catholic community of like-minded individuals, a Priest. You look online and find different… And it’s hard. You might find a community that’s not as helpful. Just keep on searching, don’t let the devil hold you back. So I would say to do that, but then also to read and understand the Catholic faith.
Trent Horn:
So I would recommend reading, for example, the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you read that, that gives you a great overview of what the Catholic Church teaches. My book, Why We’re Catholics, may also be a helpful introduction in that respect. So to read that, and then to inquire at a nearby Catholic parish, RCIA, the Right of Christian Initiation for Adults. It doesn’t mean you’re pledging to become Catholic, it just means you want to inquire and learn more, and you can go through the RCIA process without pledging to become Catholic. But it’s a great way to learn about the faith.
Trent Horn:
And I think the biggest theological points one would have to agree with as a Catholic, is to agree in the authority of the church, the authority of the church to teach on behalf of Christ, to be able to teach about the meaning of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And I would say also the Legitimacy of the Sacraments, to understand that we are saved through baptism, that we have to persevere in obedience to Christ and what the church teaches, that we need to attend mass to keep the Sabbath weekly. We’re obliged to receive the Eucharist at least once a year.
Trent Horn:
So the biggest theological points one has to agree with, I would say is, recognizing the authority of the church and keeping what are called the Precepts of the church. And recognizing that if you fall into a state moral sin, the Sacrament of Reconciliation is effective to bring you back into communion with Christ’s church. So I think those are some of the biggest theological points one we need to accept.
Trent Horn:
So, “A couple of close friends berate my faith by either claiming God is prideful or wrathful for wanting worship from His creation and punishment for sins, since we did not choose for Adam to fall. How can I demonstrate that God is so worthy of our praise?” Well, first I would say that, why would you think God is wrathful because He’s punishing us for doing something wrong? We might not have chosen to be born in a state of sin, but we do choose to sin. We choose to do bad things. I might say to them, are there people that do bad things in this life? Yes, they do. Do they deserve to be punished? Yes.
Trent Horn:
So it sounds like you agree wrongdoing ought to be punished. Your standard for punishment and wrongdoing is just going to be different than God. But why should I go with your standard as opposed to the standard of the Infinite Perfect Being that is God himself. So that goes back to the previous point on pride. Is God prideful because He wants us to worship Him? No, because God does not want us to worship Him for His benefit. Us worshiping God does not increase God’s goodness in any way. God wants us to worship Him, not for His benefit, but for our benefit, because ultimately God is the greatest good. The Summo Bono as Aquinas and the medieval scholastics would say.
Trent Horn:
You might say to the person, look, should we pursue what is good? Yes. Should we love what is good? Absolutely. Okay. Well, what is the good? And philosophers have debated this for millennia, that I think a lot of people who put this forward, they don’t think about the good. Morality for them is just right and wrong. Like what am I to do? What am I not allowed to do? But you could live a life of never committing a crime, but still being just the terrible person.But there are people who have never committed a crime, but they’re terrible. They’re awful individuals.
Trent Horn:
So what’s the difference between someone who doesn’t… Both people follow the law, but one is terrible and one is great. Well, the great one is virtuous. They seek the virtues. What are those? They are ultimate ends or the goods that we are drawn towards, and ultimately that’s going to be found in God. All goods and perfects flow from Him. So I would just say, if you have friends that say, I can’t believe God wants us to worship Him, I might say, okay, look, who do you respect in life? Is there a person that you would say, yeah, I respect that person? I listen to their advice. I think they’re amazing.
Trent Horn:
Is there a person you at least think is worthy of more respect than other people? A famous scientist or a poet or an artist, a philanthropist, a charitable person? Is there any human being that you respect more than yourself? If the answer is no, you might be a narcissist. Then you got bigger problems. But I would say, look, if that principle applies that we give respect to human beings we think are better than we are, smarter, kinder, gentler, more compassionate, more charitable, if we give them more respect because we see they’re better than us, if God exists, and God is infinitely beyond all human beings, should we not give a unyielding respect or worship?
Trent Horn:
Worship comes from an old English word, to give someone their worthship. Should we not give God the worth that He deserves, and that would be infinite. So we can’t give infinite worth, but we can at least give complete obedience and submission, and the most respect you could possibly give somebody, knowing who God is. So, all right. Let me go through this. There’s a lot here, but I’m going to-
Moderator:
Yeah, there’s a lot.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. But I want to jump around just to find some-
Moderator:
Yeah. Feel free to go up, down. It’s completely your choice. Some people are just like, “Trent, you skipped over my question.”
Trent Horn:
I’m sorry. I’m sorry. If I had more time, I would go through all of them, but we don’t. I don’t even know if I have the energy for that, because not only am I sick, I have children-
Moderator:
Oh.
Trent Horn:
… that like to be up at night.
Moderator:
I know. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:17:30].
Trent Horn:
[inaudible 00:17:30]-
Moderator:
We have some parents in the server and they talk about that too, so.
Trent Horn:
Oh yes. All right. Here’s one. “Hi, Trent. Everyone is asking serious questions. I want to ask how you’re doing today.” A little under the weather, but I’m but I’m doing all right. It’s fun to be with you guys. All right. Here’s the next one. “I want to ask who is your favorite Saint and why?” It’s funny, I’m going to steal an answer from my colleague, Jimmy Akin on this. “I can’t really say who is my favorite Saint because that’s like saying who is my favorite person.” And there’s lots of people I like in life. Imagine if I asked you, of all the people you know, who is your favorite? It’s like, well, I love people in different ways and I feel that way about the Saints.
Trent Horn:
There are some Saints who I think have been more formative in my life, that I’ve really enjoyed reading and learning about. I would say that probably in my conversion experience, St. Paul really stuck out to me. I read his conversion story a lot. And as I get older, I feel I have more of a melancholic temperament, introverted, analytic, perfectionist, can be a little grumpy sometimes. And I really identify with St. Paul because I think he is a melancholic. I also think that St. Peter is a sanguine. He’s impulsive. So my wife is a sanguine. So the way we butt heads, I always think, St. Paul and St. Peter, really they did care for each other, but they also butted heads, like my wife. We care for each other, but we also so butt heads sometimes.
Moderator:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
This is an interesting one. “Hi Trent. What’s your favorite book in the Old Testament and the New Testament? Why?” Oh, this is also hard. It’s like, what’s your favorite person? They’re all great. But I mean, come on, come on. This one, I don’t feel as bad because they’re books, they’re not people. I’m not going to hurt anybody’s feelings because there are… It’s interesting. There’s some books… It’s like artists. When you listen to an artist, they might have a hit that’s really great. And a lot of others their stuff doesn’t really move you. There’s parts of the book of Exodus I think, whoa, this just blows me away. What’s happening here?
Trent Horn:
And then Exodus 25 through 40, is 15 chapters on how to build the Ark. Or Leviticus, when Aaron’s sons are killed by fire because of their drunken idolatry. It’s like, oh man, God, doesn’t mess around. And then we’re back to endless prescriptions for the offerings and the sacrifices. But there’s so many good ones. Favorite Book in the Old Testament, you know what I think, I have to go with the book of Sirach. I really enjoy the duetro chronicle wisdom literature. There’s so many books, obviously that are amazing in the Old Testament, but I love the humor in the book of Sirach. Some of it’s a bit politically incorrect, but that’s okay. It’s scripture.
Trent Horn:
My favorite Bible verse is from that book, it’s Sirach 2:4-6. And this is I think the NAB translation that I have grilled into my mind, because that’s what I read when I was 16 years old, “Accept whatever befalls you, in crushing misfortune, be patient, for in fire gold is tested, and worthy men put in the crucible of humiliation. Trust in God, make straight your ways and hope in Him.” So I like that. I also like in Sirach, it says, “Woe to the man who has a daughter, for he is always up at night worrying about her.” And… I don’t know. I think that’s true actually.
Trent Horn:
Let’s see, here it is, Sirach 42:9. Now I will say, some of this, people, especially women, might find some of it offensive and conditioned culturally at the time, to put a lot of that’s stuff out there. But at the same time, there’s parts of it that really do resonate. Sirach 42:9, it says, “A daughter is a treasure that keeps her father wakeful, and worry over her drives away sleep less than her youth she remain unmarried, or when she is married, she be childless. While unmarried, lest she be defiled, or in her husband’s house, lest she prove unfaithful, lest she become pregnant in her father’s house or be sterile in that of her husband, my son keep a close watch on your daughter.”
Trent Horn:
But I do think there’s a lot of truth there. I have three boys and I do worry a bit about them breaking their arms, or shenanigans, that they’re just bundles of energy. But my friends, I know there’re guys, fathers who have daughters. They seem to have aged more than me in having daughters, because I feel like there’s just more of a stress with your little girl, like some guy is going to treat her so poorly in these particular ways.
Moderator:
I will ask my dad about that later.
Trent Horn:
Ask him Sirach 42:9. But I love what it says there “A daughter is a treasure who keeps her father wakeful at night.” In any case, let me see here. Oh, in the New Testament… New Testament, obviously it’s hard to pick there, but I think one that always stuck out to me is the Gospel of Mark. I just loved when I was converting the Comic Book Gospel that really introduced me real quick to Jesus. Mark gets straight to the point. It really it’s patterned almost like…
Trent Horn:
I call it the Comic Book Gospel because Mark has very short sentences, short stories. Jesus is larger than life hero. He’s the one who’s who is inaugurating the kingdom of God. I don’t know, it’s had an emotional attachment to it that I really enjoy. Obviously the Gospel of John is a masterpiece, but there’s something in the simplicity of Mark that I’ve always really enjoyed.
Trent Horn:
This is an interesting one. “Why should one choose Rome over the East, considered a Pascal’s Wager? The Orthodox tradition is very exclusive on salvation, in that anyone who’s not Orthodox would not be saved. But Rome seems more open to the Orthodox being saved than vice versa. So, considering equal evidence, should not one become Eastern Orthodox seems like a safer bet?” But I guess the idea here is that, well, if you’re trying to decide between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, if I become Orthodox and I’m wrong, maybe I’ll still be saved. But if I become Catholic and I’m wrong, maybe I’ll go to hell, because the Orthodox seem pretty firm on this.
Trent Horn:
I guess my thought on this is that it’s a misuse of Pascal’s Wager. What’s interesting here is you could apply this to other things. There’s many Protestants who think Catholic and Orthodox are going to go to hell. So, which one do you pick, right? If you’re worried about hell, there’s a lot of denominations that say Catholic and Orthodox are damned. Now, you might say, well, I discount Protestantism. I’m stuck between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. All right. But even here Pascal’s Wager was not about avoiding hell. It was just about saying, look, which one do you want to be true, and you can’t really lose?
Trent Horn:
So he was saying what Christianity and atheism, if you pick Christianity and you want it to be true, and it turns out to be false, you’ve got nothing to lose. Pascal was not about avoiding hell on the wager. A lot of people get that wrong about Pascal. I got it wrong at one point until I reread the Pensees and saw actually what he was saying. So I can make a reverse Pascal’s Wager to say, between Catholic and Orthodoxy, if you’re stuck between the two, but you would very much like Catholicism to be true, then go for it, because you have nothing to lose, because you have something that’s beautiful in that regard.
Trent Horn:
Now, I guess the difference is, there is no atheist hell in the Pascal Wager, but there’s the Orthodox hell. But I would say, I don’t think that, that should be a motivating factor in making one’s choice, because also it’s not like the Catholic church does not care about one’s salvation. If someone comes to know that the Catholic church is the church Christ established and gave us, the [inaudible 00:25:27] of St. Peter is the visible sign of unity, and refuses to be in submission to Christ church, which subsists in the Catholic church, they are in the sin of schism, that doesn’t mean people who grow up Orthodox or Protestant are in the sin of schism, but you can be in the sin of schism, and that can be gravely sinful.
Trent Horn:
So it’s not like it doesn’t matter. I would say rather look at the evidence for and against. And especially my concern would be that some Orthodox practices could lead to the toleration of behavior that is sinful, like contraception, or remarriage after divorce. That further complicates it. So I would just look at the evidence. There’s a lot of good books out there. We need more of an updated one. What are books I would recommend? Dave Armstrong and Fr. Deacon Dozier, I think have a book on Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Aiden Nichols has Rome and the Eastern Catholic Churches. We have resources of Catholic Answers. I’ll be doing…
Trent Horn:
I didn’t a reply to Jay Dyer on Orthodoxy, why he’s not Catholic at least. People can check out that video. I’ll be doing a reply to Fr. Josiah Sternum here, in the New Year. He did-
Moderator:
Oh, nice.
Trent Horn:
… a video on Catholicism Orthodoxy. I’m actually bringing a special guest to help me with that. You’ll all find out who that is.
Moderator:
Oh, exciting.
Trent Horn:
I’ll be doing more of a live rebuttal with a friend. So, that’ll be fun. But that’s what I would think of that regard. I just wanted to note this one. “Debate with Alex O’Connor led me to your podcast, led me to Catholicism.” Praise be to God for this individual. I see there’s a clap. I will clap too. I clapped, look at that. “What is the best…” Oh, and someone else did, all right. “What is the best way to tell your friends and family that you’re converting?” Is just to tell them. I remember being in that position just to say, I think the way to say this is joyful, just to say, “I found something really beautiful. And I just wanted you to know about that.” They might have…
Trent Horn:
My family had a sympathetic reaction. They thought it was good. They didn’t agree, but they didn’t think it was that bad either. But at the same time, some people might be really upset. And if that happens to you, just remember that’s exactly what Jesus said would happen. I have come to create division, father against son, mother against daughter, brother against brother. People were thrown out of the synagogues in the first century. This happens. But you’re part of a bigger family of God when choosing to become Catholic.
Moderator:
Yeah. I think for some of the people in this server are converts from the Islamic faith and I think it is a bit more interesting-
Trent Horn:
Yeah.
Moderator:
… for them. I know I’ve spoken to a person who was living in the Middle East in a predominantly Muslim country, and they would kill him if they knew.
Trent Horn:
Well, I think about it, I think it’s Matthew 5:12, “Blessed are they who are persecuted, for they persecuted the prophets before you. Your reward will be great in heaven.” You know, it will be great.
Moderator:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
An atheist friend of mine recently asked me to get her a Bible for Christmas. I want to get her, The Word on Fire Gospels. Which Gospel should I recommend that she start with? She’s Gen Z, raised a completely atheist household. Hmm. I think I’d start with Mark, honestly.
Moderator:
It’s short.
Trent Horn:
Because it is… It is short and it gets to the point, and it doesn’t bog you down with a lot of things that may be difficult to parse. I think John is a beautiful Gospel, but you might start to be lost a little bit in it. Matthew and Luke are similar… I think Matthew and Luke, obviously, they are similar to Mark. You start to read them, you get the genealogies. You’re like, what’s going on here? But they do also have the birth narratives and I think that to go from Mark and then from Mark to Luke, for example, and then Matthew and John. But yeah, I would start with that. But I would also start with these other books to help this person to understand the faith.
Trent Horn:
My book, Why We’re Catholics, is one, Peter Graves’ book, Jesus Shock, would be another that I would recommend. Wondering if you have any good book resources about the church’s stance on sexual morality that would be parallel with using the Socratic method. Yeah, that’s hard. I don’t know a lot of books that have a lot of… Well, maybe, I guess one book, is the book that I co-wrote with my friend, Leila Miller, Made This Way. It was a book actually written for parents to explain sexual morality to their children.
Trent Horn:
But I think that might be a good book that I would recommend. You can pair it with the Socratic method to ask questions. So Made This Way, by myself and Leila Miller, I think is good. There’s other great books on Catholic sexual morality, Christopher West book, God… Wait. I know it’s God’s Plan For… Is it God’s Plan For a Joyful Marriage? That was… Good News About Sex and Marriage.
Moderator:
Yeah. Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Good News About Sex and Marriage. I think it’s Fastiggi has a book called Catholic Sexual Morality or Catholic Sexual Ethics. [Jay Buda Chesky 00:42:28], just searched, J. Bud, J-B-U-D, What is Sex For or The Nature of Sex. What is Sex For is really good. If you want an academic work that I found really fascinating, One Body by Alexander Pruss who teaches at Baylor, who’s Catholic. That’s another good resource as well. Here’s one that did catch my… Maybe I’ll grab this one and then maybe one more. Would that be all right for you guys?
Moderator:
Yes. Yeah. Definitely.
Trent Horn:
So, let’s see here. “Hey Trent…” Well, I don’t know… I got some time and energy. Let’s see how I do. “Hey Trent. Question about Marvel comics. Dr. Doom has a suit embedded with nails from Jesus’s cross to protect against vampires. Is this considered sacrilege?” Well, I think that if you’re an artist and you are including Christian icons in your art, as long as you’re taking… If you’re building a fantasy universe and you’re taking Christian icons, as long as you are not doing so in a way to denigrate the Christian faith, personally, I don’t think it would be sacrilegious. And this actually comes up a lot in fictional media. Think about the movie, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. It’s about the quest for the Holy Grail.
Trent Horn:
Of course, this is not biblical in nature, but it’s a historical tradition about the Grail that caught Christ’s blood. And so if you drink of it, you’ll have eternal life. Well, of course, we believe the Holy Grail is actually a chalice mass for which we receive the blood of Christ to have eternal life. So it’s interesting derivation of the grail legend coming from that. But Indiana Jones Last Crusade is an excellent movie. It’s the best Indiana Jones movie, I would say, Indiana Jones Last Crusade. Honestly, the only good Indiana Jones movies are the ones that have Judeo Christian themes.
Trent Horn:
The first one was Searching for the Ark of the covenant and this other one, Last crusade, is trying to seek the Holy Grail. When you do the Hindu stuff and Temple of Doom or the Alien Skulls and there are those-
Moderator:
[inaudible 00:32:43].
Trent Horn:
other stupid one, it’s bad. So I think that’s okay. There was another… Oh, there’s a lot of other legendary material and fiction related to the Spear of Destiny. That also pops up in fiction. The Spear from St. [inaudible 00:32:58] appears at the side of Christ. That was the whole point of Season Two of Legends of Tomorrow, the Legion of Doom, you’ve got a Reverse Flash, Damien Darhk and Malcolm Merlin, Malcolm Merlin. I met him. I met him at Comic Con actually a few years ago. His name’s John Barrowman. We got a little picture with him.
Moderator:
Oh, that’s awesome.
Trent Horn:
Oh yeah. He’s a really nice guy.
Moderator:
He’s a wonderful singer too.
Trent Horn:
Oh yeah, he is. Absolutely. So I got a picture with him. And so I remember Season Two. Arc was the Legion of Doom, tries to get the Spear of Destiny to reality. And they do actually succeed. And the Legends of Tomorrow have to stop him. So like, take this Dr. Why does Dr. Doom use Jesus’ nails from his cross to protect against vampires? Well, in media and literature, if there is something that is demonic or a cult trying to attack you, you get a Catholic Priest. So when a demon has possessed somebody, you don’t call your local Baptist Preacher, you call a Catholic Priest to come do an exorcism.
Trent Horn:
So I think that, that’s a recognition in media of there is something powerful in the Christian faith or in the Catholic faith, that is able to ward off evil. Someone has done it in that way. Now, some people might be real stringent about it, and there’s other things when it denigrates the Christian faith. I think that’s bad, like the last temptation of Christ or depictions that try to make Jesus to be acting out on homosexual conduct or whatever. But when it’s just saying, Hey, Jesus is really powerful. And some of these Christian elements have power, and these fictional characters have appropriated that power. I’m willing to allow that. I think that can work.
Moderator:
It opens up for a conversation and then you could be like, Hey, you know why it’s that way. And then there you go.
Trent Horn:
Right. Exactly, exactly. “What are the best arguments for opposing euthanasia?” I think the best argument is, when you’re talking about it in a legal sense especially, of how to oppose things like euthanasia or assisted suicide, is to point out that we do not help people commit suicide or kill certain vulnerable people. So, seriously, why can’t people choose to die or die if their life isn’t worth living. You might say, well, what about very depressed people who want to kill themselves, or someone who’s in a wheelchair who says, if I’m sick, or if I’m mentally handicapped, kill me. We don’t do that. But in doing so, we make an arbitrary distinction between lives worth living, lives not worth living, and that gets very dangerous. I would say, rather, we should just say, all lives are valuable and we should help everyone out of destructive, suicidal decisions, not into suicidal decisions.
Trent Horn:
Let’s see here. One of my favorite church Father and favorite modern scholar. Once again, that’s like asking me to play favorites and that would be difficult. Favorite church Father? Oh, that’s hard. If we look at Fathers in the first… These are people that would’ve lived in about the first 500, 600 years of church history. There are some that really stick out to me for their writings that I’ve found to be very helpful, but I like them in a lot of different ways. Like I think St Cyprian is an excellent early witness prior to the Council of Nicaea to Catholic distinctives, and people often overlook that in him. So I think that, that could be very helpful. Obviously nobody holds a candle to Saint Augustine, the Doctor of Grace, but of course, Saint Jerome, mastery of scripture. I like his incorrigible attitude sometimes.
Trent Horn:
But I don’t know if I had to pick one that I was going through. Well, actually, no. I would say my favorite one of the church Fathers, one that I enjoy reading because of his proximity to the apostles, especially as distinctive elements of Catholicism, would be St. Ignatius of Antioch. That is one that I think is always very overwhelming to see the early, early elements of the Catholic faith, and just in his particular way of writing and the poetry in it. I like St. Ignatius Of Antioch a lot. And a favorite modern scholar, that’s hard because these people are alive. I call these [inaudible 00:37:36] for help. So there’s a wide variety of them, and I cite them often. And there’s a lot of different ones that I enjoy learning from in different respects. So-
Moderator:
You don’t find any, I can ask you one.
Trent Horn:
Why don’t you ask me the last question?
Moderator:
All right. So, I think a lot of us, especially in this server and I think in a lot of the questions that are being asked, we just want to know how to evangelize. Well, I think a lot of us, and especially I find a lot of questions would be, is that, I have a family or a family member. I have a friend and they don’t seem to care about God. They don’t care about Catholicism. They’re from this faith or their atheist. How do we evangelize to them better? What can I tell them? How can I prove it? Now, I have my own answers to this, but I’d like to hear your take when people just… What can I tell them to prove them that the Catholic church is where they should be?
Trent Horn:
Sure. Well, what I would say is there’s nothing that we can do to move their will to being Catholic. And I think we have to start there and realize we’re planting seeds. So I think we have to be very holistic with that individual. We have to care for them, show them compassion, rejoice with them, suffer with them, have that authentic relationship with them. And then always, even if you’re willing to get shot down a bunch, joyfully invite them to take part in the faith, maybe inviting them to ma… It depends where they are. If they’re falling away, if they’re not Catholic, inviting them to attend mass with you or a Bible study, or even any just Catholic event, it could be a talk that is really interesting, for them to go and be a part of. Or just something that they would enjoy, even if it’s Catholic lite, L-I-T-E. And then asking questions, like, well, what do you think about that?
Trent Horn:
I think the Socratic approach is just really, really helpful. And then always pray for them. Think about how St. Monica prayed for St. Augustine so much for him to come back to the faith for so long. And then he did. And yeah, just to understand that, even Jesus could not convert his family and friends. When he went back to Nazareth, it says that Jesus could only perform a few miracles because they lacked faith. And they said, is this not the carpenter’s son, is this not the son of Mary, who is this guy? And they knew him too well. So, just to know that you might be called to evangelize other people, and other people might be called to evangelize your friends and family.
Trent Horn:
But you want to plant a seed to make the ground welcoming and receptive, others will evangelize them. So focus on your faith and be a fount of joy for others. And God will order everything from them. And don’t be afraid to ask questions or to say, I’d love for you to come to ask to me sometime, or, come to confession, if you ever want to. I know it’s not your thing really, but love for you to come with me if you want, or if you ever have any questions, just ask me. Keep the relationship and keep the door open, is what I would say.
Moderator:
I think for us, we try to convert through our memes. We have a couple… As I mentioned, we have Protestants and Orthodox people and non-Christian in the server, and we just send them memes to convert.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. I would say memes are a way to open the conversation, to get a crack in the door, especially if it’s done in a lighthearted way that the other person will genuinely laugh about. If it’s meme-spirited don’t do that. But if it’s lighthearted-
Moderator:
I know.
Trent Horn:
… or self-deprecatory, then that can open the door. But eventually you do have to move beyond that. Especially if it’s someone online you send a few memes to, maybe you should have a Skype conversation with them, to actually talk face-to-face as best you can. That’s where I think the authentic evangelism happens.
Moderator:
Yeah. We try to get people I’m into our voice chat. I think, especially with someone… I think I mentioned to you earlier, we do have a Lutheran in the server who does a lot of the Catholic apologetic.
Trent Horn:
That’s great.
Moderator:
I know. And I think with us, we’re just like, oh man, he’s so close. I feel we’re very much talking, trying to get [Lewis 00:41:36] to come on over to our side.
Trent Horn:
I know, I know.
Moderator:
And [Lewis 00:41:38] just stayed Anglican and-
Trent Horn:
God will work with him based on how He’s moving in their heart, and all we can do is just plant those seeds. Yeah, but thank you very much for inviting me. This is a real treat.
Moderator:
Yeah. I know, I thank you.
Trent Horn:
Sorry. I still have my cold, but I think we got through a lot of good questions.
Moderator:
We will pray for you.
Trent Horn:
I apologize.
Moderator:
We will pray for you.
Trent Horn:
Thank you.
Moderator:
Yeah. We pray for you, Trent. Before we go, I guess we could close in prayer and-
Trent Horn:
Sure.
Moderator:
… but I just want to say thank you again to you, Trent, for coming and sharing and spending your time with us. I want to thank everyone for coming. I want to thank the mod team for keeping everybody in check. Thank you guys. And let’s close in prayer.
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