In this interview with Word on Fire content director Matt Nelson, Trent helps us understand the difficult sayings of Jesus that critics exploit in order to paint him as a “mere mortal” Messiah.
Welcome to the Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
What is the one book that is most responsible for turning people into atheists? If you ask atheists this question, you’ll get an unexpected answer. Welcome to the Counsel of Trent Podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker, Trent Horn. Before I reveal what that book is though, a big thanks to our supporters at trenthornpodcast.com. You make the podcast possible for as little as $5 a month. You keep the podcast going, you keep the YouTube channel going. You allow us to do more debates, more dialogues to expand our efforts. I’m very appreciative. That’s why for our premium subscribers, I’m giving you guys bonus content.
So along with the ability to exclusively comment on episodes, message me, submit ideas for future episodes, we’ve added other bonus content. Recently, I did a talk called Faith in the Voting Booth. It was a talk for a select group at Catholic Answers, but now I’ve been given permission to share it with our premium subscribers. So if you have questions about what principles you should follow when you take your faith into the voting booth, which is going to be coming up here soon, you’re not going to want to miss this talk available for premium subscribers. Go and check it out at trenthornpodcast.com.
Now onto the topic of today’s show, what is the one book that’s most responsible for turning people into atheists? You might be thinking well, is it like The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins or God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens? No, many atheists will tell you it’s the Bible. That they sat down, they read the Bible. They were either underwhelmed by it or they were overwhelmed by what they thought were contradictions or even moral atrocities. Penn Jillette, he’s a famous atheist and a magician actually. He does an act with Penn & Teller in Vegas, which I love checking out. And he’s actually a pretty nice guy. He says, “I’ve read the Bible cover to cover. If you read the Bible or the Koran, or the Torah cover to cover, I believe you will emerge from that as an atheist.”
David Silverman, who’s the president of American atheists, he said in the New York Times, “I gave a Bible to my daughter. That’s how you make atheists.” And Richard Carrier, someone I’ve debated before, he said, “When I finished the last page of the Bible, though alone in my room, I declared aloud, ‘Yep. I’m an atheist.'” Now, of course, it doesn’t follow. Even if you didn’t believe in the Bible, you could still believe in God. But I think a lot of people end up going down the slide into atheism. They start with reading the Bible and rejecting Christianity because they think the Bible is merely a composition of human fables and legends.
And they claim that the presence of contradictions or moral absurdities proves this. And this even includes the so-called hard sayings of Jesus. That Jesus gave many teachings that are very difficult to follow or understand. Though I think actually that is an argument for the veracity of the Bible. That if you were just making up the Bible from scratch to start a new religion, why would you put in a bunch of hard sayings that are going to drive people away? So you should keep in mind that when you come across a hard saying in the Bible, something that’s difficult or even seems repulsive, that’s actually indirect evidence in favor of it because if you just made up this story in order to lure people in, you wouldn’t put in stuff that would drive them away.
Rather, we can explain these things as being truths that are hard. And sometimes the truth is very difficult or there are aspects of the truth that we don’t understand because what we are reading was written in another language, in another geographical context, in another historical context that occurred 2000 years ago. So I go over all of this in a recent interview I did with Matt Nelson for the Word on Fire Institute. So you’re going to hear a portion of the interview today. The full interview will go online, I think sometime in October. So be sure to go and check it out. The Word on Fire Institute is a great place. Here’s what they say about themselves.
So Word on Fire of course is associated with Bishop Barron. I love all the work that he’s been doing, going out into secular culture, standing up for the faith. He’s one of the few bishops I know of who is willing to go toe to toe with non-Catholics and other people to stand up for our faith. I remember he’s challenged Richard Dawkins to debate him on atheism. And I think Dawkins said, “Wait, I’m not going to debate anyone. I’m not going to debate an apologist. I’ll debate the pope or I’ll debate bishops.” And then when Father Robert Barron became Bishop Robert Barron, he said, “Well, I’m a Bishop now, why don’t we have a debate on the existence of God?” And it still hasn’t happened yet.
So according to the institute’s website, Bishop Barron has spoken about his dream of evolving Word on Fire from a ministry into a movement. The first step of that process is to form a community of evangelists who share the same mission and desire to proclaim Christ to the culture using beauty, goodness, and truth. This was the primary motive behind the establishment of the Word on Fire Institute, an easy to use digital platform offering members’ training, discussions, live presentations, and more. So you can check that out at wordonfire.institute. Our whole interview I have with Matt on the hard sayings of Jesus will be there, but for now here’s just a sneak peek at that, but be sure to check that out.
And if you want more of my research on how to understand Bible difficulties, I would highly recommend my book, Hard Sayings: A Catholic Approach to Answering Bible Difficulties. Which by the way, is the most comprehensive book out there when it comes to Bible difficulties from a Catholic perspective. I was actually shocked when I wrote the book. I thought, well, surely other Catholic biblical scholars have done a lot of work on this subject, but it just wasn’t out there. So whenever I look to think, okay, what’s the next book I want to write? I think, do I enjoy this topic? Do other people enjoy it? And is there a need? I’m telling you, there is a need for this. There are young people, middle school, high school, college, it’s really starting even in junior high and late elementary school who will read the Bible and say, “Mom and dad, this doesn’t make sense.”
And if we can’t give them the answers to make sense of these hard sayings, they’re going to jettison holy scripture, their belief in Jesus along with it. And we do not want that to happen. So today I’ve offered some insights on how to explain to anyone kids, adults, whoever it may be, explain to them these supposed hard sayings of Jesus. Here’s my interview with Matt Nelson where we talk about that.
Matt Nelson:
Well, let’s jump right into our main theme for this conversation, which is the hard sayings of Jesus in the gospels. And I’m going to start with, I guess I’ll throw it at you as a sort of objection. Doesn’t Jesus seem unnecessarily harsh in some passages of scripture? And here’s an example of this, in Luke’s gospel chapter 14, Jesus says this, and many people will be familiar with this passage. “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters…” Just about everybody that we love the most typically. “And even his own life,” he says, “Anyone who comes to me and does not hate even his own life can not be my disciple.”
How can we make sense of a passage like this when it sounds like Jesus is almost telling us to hate everything that should be most dear to us.
Trent Horn:
Right. And so when we interpret scripture, we want to follow various rules of interpreting scripture that we can find in the catechism and the teaching of the church. And one of those rules is the analogy of faith. So we have to interpret scripture as a whole and not look at it in very isolated context. So what is Jesus saying here? That in order to follow him, we have to hate our family members? Is Jesus telling us to hate people? Well, that doesn’t sound right. Because in other passages, for example, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that if you hate your brother, that’s tantamount to the sin of murder. So Jesus condemned the sin of hatred.
Jesus also condemned hating family members and skirting the 10 commandments, specifically the commandment to honor thy father and thy mother. He said some very harsh things to the Pharisees because they were twisting the law and using their human traditions to skirt the responsibility of providing for their aged parents. That’s the dispute where Jesus says, you follow traditions, your traditions have made void the word of God, the [inaudible 00:08:08] tradition, which is where people would say, “Oh, I can’t spend money on my aging father because I gave that money to the temple and I can’t ask for it back.” Which Jesus showed, no, you’re just doing it to hurt parents that you have some kind of grudge against.
Trent Horn:
You follow the law about not breaking a vow to God about giving money to the temple, but in doing so, you make the word of God void by failing to honor your father and your mother. So clearly Jesus does not want us to hate our family members. So then how do we reconcile Luke 14:26? We have to remember that in every culture, words have specific meanings and they have cultural context to them, rhetoric, hyperbole. And if you’re not a part of that culture, it’s easy to miss what people are talking about. Even today in what we are saying, 50 or 100 years from now, people may lose the meanings of particular phrases, or people from other cultures.
So if I say, for example, that Matt Nelson is a lady killer. That doesn’t mean you should be locked up behind bars. Because someone may say, well, lady and killer. Killer means to end life and lady is a female person, he must be killing women. Well, no, it’s an expression. It just means someone attractive to other people. Though I know you’re a happily married man. You don’t care to hear any of that stuff. So like that, or if I say, “Hey, Matt, you were really on fire in that interview you did the other day.” I’m not saying you’re actually emulated. So we have to understand that. So when we see here in Luke 14:26, the rhetoric that Jesus is using corresponds to other rhetoric in the Old Testament actually of a Hebrew Semitism that means to love less rather than to outright hate.
So you think of people that sometimes in some ethnicities and cultures, they speak in these kinds of absolutes in order to make emphatic points that shouldn’t be taken literally. So to understand this, go back to Genesis chapter 29, Genesis 29:30-31 is we deal with the drama of Jacob. Jacob was tricked into marrying Laban’s daughters. He wanted to marry Rachel, but he was tricked into marrying Leah. So he ended up being married to Leah and Rachel. And it says that when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb. But Rachel was barren. Now here, of course, what it says is that Jacob went into Rachel and he loved Rachel more than Leah. And he served Laban for seven years.
So he married Leah for seven years so he could later be married to Rachel, the woman he really loved more. He didn’t hate Leah. He just loved Rachel more than Leah. So it uses the expression that Leah was hated means that she was loved less. And so what Jesus is saying in Luke 14:26, what he’s saying is that you cannot love anyone else in this life more than me. And that makes perfect sense because ultimately, if we love God, we will love our relatives, our friends, and every single human being. Once we love other people in this life more than God, then when it comes to the point of one of our loved ones engages in sin and asks us to take part in it, if we love that person more than God, then we’ll choose sin over God.
If we love God more than anything else in this world, we will always ensure that we properly love the people of this world. Sin has been defined as the love of creature more than creator. Anytime you love the creature more than creator, that is sin. And that’s all Jesus is saying here, we have to prioritize him first and then everything else falls into place. That’s why in Matthew, 10:37-38, the passage, Matthew articulates it in a way for people to get the meaning that could be missed in the way Luke phrased it where in Matthew’s version, he records Jesus as saying, whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me.
And so the apostles, both sacred authors, I should say communicate Jesus’s meaning, what he is asserting though they’re just using different words to communicate the same message.
Matt Nelson:
You’re pointing out some important principles here. One of them is the importance of reading passages, single passages in context, the greater context of the entire scriptures, but also we’re able to cross reference like, so you’ve just cross-referenced Luke’s gospel with the book of Genesis to help us understand how in biblical conversation, in a biblical context, a word like hate might be understood differently. And when the author used that word in whatever the original language was, he wasn’t intending hate in the way that we would use it today.
Trent Horn:
Right. And we do the same thing today, Matt. If I said, “Hey, Matt, what do you think of this particular movie?” And you said, “Oh, I think it’s totally overrated.” And I said, “Hey Matt, don’t be a hater.” That doesn’t mean that I am implying that you viscerally with all of your energy have malicious thoughts towards this movie. You just don’t enjoy it or appreciate it as much as I do or at all. But it doesn’t even mean that you hate the thing. You could be neutral towards it. When I say don’t be a hater, it’s a playful way of saying, don’t be an unnecessarily picky critic or something like that.
So even us today, people will say, “Well, Jesus said, [inaudible 00:13:24], hate. It means hate. That’s just what it says in the lexicons. But we do the same thing today even with the English word, hate. So we should allow Jesus to have the same latitude.
Matt Nelson:
Absolutely. No, that’s good stuff. Let’s move on to another apparently harsh saying of Jesus. All right. So this comes from Luke chapter nine and Jesus says to a man, “Follow me.” And here’s the response of the man to whom Jesus says, “Follow me.” The man said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” But he said to him, “Leave the dead,” this is Jesus speaking, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” All right, what’s going on in this passage?
Trent Horn:
Well, what’s probably not going on is that the father is dead. So the harshness from the passage comes from us reading it and thinking, oh my gosh, this man’s father has just died. It would just take a few hours for him just to go and bury his father. You’re telling me he can’t even be at his father’s funeral service and he has to just go and follow Jesus? Why is Jesus giving such an irrational demand? Well, if you read people like Craig Keener, for example, who’s written a wonderful commentary on the gospels and a long commentary in the book of Acts especially, what we gather from this is that the man’s father probably wasn’t even dead at this time.
Because if the man’s father had died, the son would not be with Jesus. He would have been at his father’s bedside. He would be with the family. And then immediately upon the father’s death would have just gone and he would have been given a very prompt burial. Jewish law in the book of Deuteronomy says that burials must be done in a prompt way immediately after someone has died. So what is the expression here is probably that the father is alive but he’s probably an aged individual who probably would die within maybe the next few months or even years. And so what he’s saying to Jesus is, I want to follow you, but let me just share the last few years my dad has, the last few months with him before he dies.
And this goes back to the larger point that Jesus was making, which we see in Matthew 10:37-38, “Whoever loves his father and mother more than me cannot be my disciple.” So in order to follow Jesus, we have to sever these family ties. And if you think for example of the priesthood, people who go to serve the church as priests, many times, they do have to give up holidays with their family members, spending time with family in order to serve the bride of Christ, in order to act in the person of Christ in this way. So it’s not an irrational demand. It’s just a continued application of the principle from the previous difficulty, which is we cannot love things and people of this life more than Christ himself when he calls us.
Matt Nelson:
Right. And so again, you’re pointing out an important sort of tension we should be aware of in the gospels because we should read the gospels as though we’re there, we’re present. If you’re doing ignition exercises, for example, you’re putting yourself right there on the spot and imagining these words being said to you. Or you’re watching the conversation happening and imagining what that would be like. And yet there’s the danger of not understanding the greater context. Maybe it’s first century Jewish context that sheds light on what’s happening. So it again just emphasizes the importance of Bible study to understand what’s going on here.
Yes, in a relevant way for my life here now, but also what’s going on here if I would have been there 2000 years ago? What would these words have meant? So doing a great job highlighting that. Well, let’s move on to another hard saying here. So this is another one people will probably be familiar with. A lot of times, and especially since this new atheist movement, which is kind of waxed and waned, and it’s still there. The influence is still strong I think in the culture. A lot of times people have heard the charge that religion breeds violence, and that’s one of the reasons we should reject religion. And sometimes they’ll point to Jesus himself as proof for this and they’ll point to this particular passage from Matthew’s gospel.
In chapter 10, Jesus says this, “Do not think that I’ve come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” All right, what’s going on here?
Trent Horn:
Right. So should we believe from this passage that Jesus is telling his followers to take up the sword and engage in acts of violence in order to spread the kingdom of God? Absolutely not. Once again, what are the principles we follow? The analogy of faith. Read scripture as a whole. So then what do we see in all of the gospels? We see Jesus teach nonviolence. Jesus teaches nonviolent resistance to people who would curse you. Do not answer evil with evil. Think about when Jesus was arrested in the garden of Gethsemane, Peter takes out his sword to defend Jesus. And Jesus says, “Peter, put away your sword.”
In Matthew 26:52, he says, “Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.” So clearly Jesus did not want his followers to quote unquote, ‘live by the sword’ and violently promulgate their religion to violently spread the Christian faith. He specifically tells Peter at his hour, “Put your sword away. It’s not what I am calling you to do.” When he’s standing before Pontius Pilate in John 18:36, he tells Pilate, “Look, my kingdom…” The dynamic Trent Horn translation. “Look, my kingdom is not of this world.” Pilate says, “Are you a king?” And I will say, my favorite rendition of Pontius Pilate in film, we have The Passion, Mel Gibson’s, The Passion. And it’s a great film.
But I still have a bit of a soft spot for that old six hour film, Jesus of Nazareth. Did you ever see it, Matt, or at least parts of it?
Matt Nelson:
I think I have seen it. Yeah. On VHS.
Trent Horn:
It’s an old… yeah, on VHS. The old Jesus of Nazareth film. Here’s the fun game. Count how many times Jesus blinks. I don’t think he ever blinks in the entire film, he blinks maybe like four times. But the guy they have as Pilate, I just love it. He sits there. It’s in English. He goes, “Well, what is the proof?” He did talking to Jesus. And so Pilate is saying, “Are you a king? I have the power to crucify you. Are you a king?” The old saying is the king of the Jews. Are you a king? Jesus says, “I am a king, but my kingdom is not of this world.” He says, “If my kingdom were of this world, my followers would have fought to prevent me from being handed over to you.”
So Jesus is clearly not talking about a earthly militaristic type of Christendom that captures people by force and other things like this. So what is Jesus talking about here? Well, Matthew 10:34. Remember the first difficulty we talked about, whoever loves mother or father more than me is not worthy of me. That’s Matthew 10:37-38. What Jesus is saying here is that when people come to believe in him, they will be isolated from their family members. This is true today. It was true 500 years ago. And it was very true at the time of Christ. Because if you came to believe in Jesus, you could be thrown out of the synagogue. You could be thrown to the lions in a Roman Coliseum.
So Jesus is saying that he has come not to make everyone be happy and be at peace, but that he himself, the person who he is, the claims he makes, the radical claims to allegiance he demands of his followers to treat him not merely as another rabbi, but as Yahweh incarnate, that will cause division. People will either accept it and will bend the knee to Jesus, or they will violently rebel against that idea. In fact, Saint Peter in First Peter 2:7-8, it says this about Jesus. “To you therefore who believe, he, Jesus, our Lord, is precious. But for those who do not believe, the very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner, the cornerstone.
A stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall. For they stumble because they disobey the word as they were destined to do. A rock that will make them fall.” In other translations, it says, Jesus is a rock of offense. So he’s a rock of offense, that Jesus will divide people and he will set people apart from one another and that’s happened all throughout Christian history. So if you choose to believe in Jesus or to be received into the Catholic church, for example, be prepared. And I’ve heard many people say that I can’t become Catholic, or I can’t become Christian because what would happen with my family? And my response to you is the same that Jesus said, no one has given up lands or families or livelihoods that will not be repaid 10 times or 100 times more in the kingdom.
That when you become Christian, when you are received into Christ’s church, you become part of a family far greater than any family you ever left behind. And God will make sure to provide for you so that his grace is sufficient in any weakness you may be enduring in making such an important spiritual decision.
Matt Nelson:
Yeah. This objection to the peacemaking nature of Christianity that we claim reminds me of the famous quote from, I believe it was R. C. Sproul who said, “A text without a context is a pretext for proof text.” And I think, if I said that right, I think you quote that in your book as well.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. I want to say it was D. A. Carson. But yes-
Matt Nelson:
Was it D. A. Carson? Okay.
Trent Horn:
I want to say that. Yeah.
Matt Nelson:
Okay. And you’re probably, you’re, well, [crosstalk 00:22:29]-
Trent Horn:
It floats around.
Matt Nelson:
Yeah. But anyways, whoever said that, and it probably was Carson because I was not sure if it was Sproul. That was the name I had in my head.
Trent Horn:
Sure.
Matt Nelson:
It’s a great point that he’s making. And we do this sometimes as Catholics, like we’re talking about the sacrament of confession. We might go directly to John 20:21-23 and try to make a case for Jesus teaching the sacrament of reconciliation. But there is a danger, right, in just quoting one particular short verse or passage and trying to make a big case out of it.
Trent Horn:
Sure. And for example, I firmly believe John 20 verses 21 through 23 establishes the sacrament of penance. But I agree with you that when we are trying to present a case to someone, it’s not wise to say, “Well, here’s my three verses. There you go.” We have to show how the verses connect with one another and how they fit into the larger context of scripture as a whole. So the sacrament of confession, it doesn’t make as much sense unless you see Jesus establishing a priesthood. And the priesthood doesn’t make sense unless you see that they are to offer the Eucharist as a sacrifice.
So I do believe that you can make a smaller case, but ultimately when you want to make the fuller case, you to see how all of the pieces put together. And that happens with these Bible difficulties, people will say, “Well, how could Jesus have said this, or Paul have said this?” Get the whole picture together and then you see how it fits better.
Matt Nelson:
Okay. And a saying that seems to contradict the idea that Jesus believed himself to be co-equal with God. That Jesus was God. And so here is the famous passage that sometimes gets put up by skeptics to show that Jesus didn’t think he was God. And so here it is, this one’s from Mark’s gospel. “Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good, but God alone.”” Those are Jesus’s words. What is Jesus saying here?
Trent Horn:
Right. So we’d have to examine the context once again, this verse, if you just read it, “Why do you call me good? No one is good, but God alone.” Well, what is the context that is happening here? So that would be part of our answer. Before we get to that though, we should say, well, does the idea of Jesus denying his divinity make sense in the analogy of faith in general? No, because it’s very clear Jesus is God of the biblical evidence, historical evidence, Jesus would never deny his own divinity. So we have to interpret that according to the analogy of faith. Then let’s zero in further. Let’s just go to the gospel of Mark. Would it make sense in Mark’s gospel even for Jesus to do such a thing?
Not at all. In Mark 2:5, Jesus forgives sins and the Pharisees tell him only God can forgive sins. And he doubles down on that. He does something that only was within the prerogative of Yahweh. Another example of Jesus doing something that was only within the prerogative of the God of Israel or Yahweh is something people don’t notice as much as Mark 2:5, but this will be in Mark 4:41, in Mark chapter four when Jesus calms the storm at sea with the disciples. They’re saying, “Jesus, we’re dying out here. What are you doing?” And he gets up and he calms the wind and the waves. And the disciples say to themselves, “Who then is this that even wind and sea obey him?”
And according to biblical scholar [Moran Hooker 00:25:37], the answer to the disciples’ question is obvious. It is God who made the sea and God alone who controls it according to Psalm 89:8. The authority with which Jesus acts is that of God himself. So all throughout Mark’s gospel, which critics will say, “Well, John thinks Jesus is God, [inaudible 00:25:54] will say this. John thinks Jesus is God, but Mark doesn’t think that. Not at all, Mark, you can see the divinity of Christ in many of the sayings of Jesus, but more so in the actions of Jesus as opposed to the things that he says. He acts with God’s authority because that’s who he is.
So then what’s going on here with Jesus saying to this person, “No one is good but God alone?” What’s the whole context? We go back a few verses. It says, “And Jesus was setting out on his journey. A man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments.” And then Jesus recites the commandments. The man says, “Teacher or rabbi, all of these I’ve observed from my youth.” And Jesus, looking upon him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing, go and sell what you have and give to the poor. You will have treasure in heaven. Come follow me.” And then the man’s countenance fell because he had many great possessions and he was sad.
So what’s going on here? Jesus is not talking about whether he is God or isn’t God. Rather, what is happening here is Jesus sees a man, comes up to him and is trying to flatter him like, “Oh, hey rabbi, good teacher. What must I do to get into heaven?” He’s trying to flatter the rabbi here to give him a good answer. And it’s not up to a rabbi to decide who goes to heaven. That’s up to God. Don’t try to flatter me in this regard, do you keep the commandments? And then Jesus does something interesting here. He extends him because if you’ve kept the commandments, any rabbi worth his salt would say, “Great. Then my son of Israel, you shall have your salvation.”
But instead, Jesus says, you need to go further than that. Well, where does he get this authority to do that? Because he’s God. So the whole story speaks against this idea of Jesus denying his divinity. An analogy I use to explain this story… Matt, have you ever seen the television show, Undercover Boss?
Matt Nelson:
I have not.
Trent Horn:
So Undercover Boss is a TV show where a CEO will go undercover as like a low level manager in his own company. He’ll wear a disguise to see what life is like in his company he may not see from his executive office, to see what it’s really like. And so it’s funny, sometimes on these shows, he’ll hear people bad mouth him behind his back because he’s wearing a disguise or saying they really love the CEO. And so it’s almost like here, it’d be like if we had the CEO undercover as a low level manager and someone goes up to the manager, who they think is just a manager and says, “Hey, Mr. Manager, you are the greatest boss in this company. Help me out with this.” And the manager says, “Oh, I’m not the greatest boss. The CEO is.”
Unknowingly speaking about himself of course, because he’s in disguise with these people that he’s mingling with. And we have something similar here with Jesus, not that as humanities that disguise, that’s the heresy of Docetism, but that Jesus has condescended and come down among us as man. And has a unique opportunity to speak with his, of course, his fully human nature, but also his fully divine nature to people who do not understand it at that time and to help them to see the fullness of the faith, which he ultimately would reveal through his glorified resurrection.
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