Audio only:
In this episode Trent answers a variety of questions submitted by his patrons at trenthornpodcast.com.
Welcome to the Council of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
Welcome back everyone to the Council of Trent podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker Trent Horn. Mea culpa, mea culpa, my fault. A while ago, might have even been a few months ago, I asked our patrons to submit their questions for an open mailbag episode here on the podcast. And now, the episode has finally been delivered. But if you would like to, by the way, submit questions, if you want to take part in a lot of the extra things that we have here, like our catechism and New Testament study series, we oftentimes offer free courses, the Council of Trent mug that has my mug on it, a fancy Council of Trent mug to keep your kitchen, that’s always fun. All that and more, be sure to go and check that out at trenthornpodcast.com, where you can also comment on episodes, send us direct messages, and submit your questions for episodes like these. So let’s jump right in.
Trent Horn:
Here’s the first one: “You have spent a good amount of time on your podcast discussing contemporary politics from a clearly right-wing conservative perspective. Is there room in the Catholic Church for the politically homeless like myself, or does First Communion come with a Daily Wire subscription?”
Trent Horn:
If only it did, right? No, I’m just kidding. This is always kind of hard when I talk about things on the podcast, because everybody has biases. Everybody has personal views that they have, and you could try really, really hard to keep your personal views out of things, but they are going to come through often, even in subtle or indirect ways. And I think I allow my personal views on politics to come through, even in explicit ways, here on the podcast. But I think in general, if you look at the episodes that I do, politics is usually something I only tangentially reference, or if I talk about politics, it’s because a politician said something that relates to faith and morals directly.
Trent Horn:
It’s no secret if you follow me, especially if you follow my social media… But even on social media, I don’t post a lot on politics. Usually I’ll comment on something that’s going on in the world, but I try to keep things related to the faith. Because it’s easy… It would be really easy… It’s funny, actually. Someone did ask me, “Would you ever go work at the Daily Wire?” And I said, “Well, as fun as that might be…” I appreciate the different Daily Wire personalities in different ways. That’s not what I’m called to do.
Trent Horn:
Now, some people might be called to talk about what is going on in Church culture. People offer news and commentary on what’s happening in the church. Other people are called into politics, to be a politician or to offer political commentary. That’s not what I’m called to do. It does come up in my work from time to time, but I want to explain and defend the Catholic faith. The problem is the Catholic faith oftentimes intersects with issues in politics. Look at abortion, so-called same-sex marriage, issues of prudential judgements versus what the church teaches when it comes to doctrine. So this can come up. And I’m okay with some of my political views being out there, but I’ve tried hard to not make it a big part of the podcast, and I don’t think it is.
Trent Horn:
Also, I will say this. I even mentioned this… I did an episode on the end of Roe versus Wade with Cy Kellett recently, and that was for Catholic Answers Live. And on there, I was mad because I told Cy I was really sick of liberal Catholics who say they want abortion to stay legal, and Cy pushed back because he identifies as a liberal Catholic, though not liberal theologically; more politically. He’d call himself a Dorothy Day Catholic. And I said that’s fine. This is my view about politics: You can have any political views you want, as long as you affirm the teachings of the Church. That’s it. As long as you affirm the Church’s teachings, there are going to be areas where there are judgments about “how do we fix this social problem? How do we address poverty?” Some people want limited government answers. Other people want big government answers. We can disagree as Catholics about that and still be good Catholics.
Trent Horn:
That’s fine, but you can’t be Catholic and side with particular liberal policies, like for example abortion being legal, redefining marriage. There are certain policies on the right that Catholics cannot support. I know some people who are more right-leaning who are extremely anti-immigrant. There are people who believe essentially in closed borders. The Catholic Church doesn’t say open borders or closed borders. If you read the Catechism on immigration, it’s actually very measured and balanced in that response.
Trent Horn:
So I would say to this person that no, obviously you can be a faithful Catholic and not be conservative. You might even be liberal in your politics. Just please affirm what the Church teaches. And definitely don’t affirm the things the Church rejects or prohibits. However, I will say this: I do have a little bit of a concern about modern day political liberalism, that there’s something within it that it might be antithetical to our faith, or at least problematic. Gallup did… Or maybe it was Pew. It was Pew or Gallup. I have the quotation here. I’ll link to it below, the source, but recent large polling organization… It’s Pew or Gallup. I want to say it was Pew… Talked about that the fewest number of Americans today believe in God, than I think when they started actually recording this. That the number of Americans who believe in God is at 81%. That’s still… It’s better than being in the minority, right? But it used to be almost near unanimous in this country.
Trent Horn:
So we’re entering kind of a post religious age, and that’s concerning. So it said about 81% of people believe in God, but if you look at demographics, it changes dramatically. It says here, “The groups with the largest declines are also the groups that are currently least likely to believe in God.” So it talks about the groups that had the most decline in belief in God, they’re also the groups that have the lowest level of belief. And which groups are those? It includes liberals at 62%, young adults at 68%, and Democrats at 72%. So if you identify as politically liberal, only two thirds of those who identify politically as liberal believe in God.
Trent Horn:
And then it goes on to say, “Belief in God is highest among political conservatives at 94%, and Republicans at 92%, reflecting that religiosity is a major determinate of political divisions in the US.” Now I’m not saying that if you’re not a conservative, you’re going to be some wild-eyed atheist or something like that. That’s not what I’m saying, but I think we need to explore this a little more and ask why is that the case? Why is it that people identify as conservative, almost all of them, believe in God, like 94%? But people identify as liberal, there is a large chunk of people who do not believe in God. Maybe there’s a positive reason or a negative reason. I’m not sure.
Trent Horn:
Some people might say, “That means political liberalism is something that’s more friendly to people who, who don’t believe in God.” Okay. Well, I want to be friendly to people who don’t believe in God either, but more than being friendly to them, I want them to believe in God. I want them to believe in the Gospel. I want them to be saved. I want them to be a brother and sister in Christ. So that’s why I have some concerns that while you can be a politically liberal Catholic, I wonder. I wonder about the alliances that are involved. I just wonder. But to reaffirm, I want to help people defend the faith, whether you’re politically liberal, politically conservative, libertarian, what have you. I want you to be able to defend the Catholic faith, and I want us to always put our faith first. Faith before party, principal before party, is what we should always do.
Trent Horn:
And you could be a Catholic, once again, any political party… Political thought, I should say. There’re some parties that are actually cuckoo for cocoa puffs. I don’t want to restrict it just to party membership, because you could have political views and not belong to a political party. You could be independent. But I would say this: You can have a wide array of political views; just make sure they are in alignment with the teachings of the Catholic faith.
Trent Horn:
All right. So that was the first one. Let’s jump to a few others now, shall we? “How do we explain to others it’s okay to have Easter Mass outside, but people aren’t allowed to get married at a local park or on the beach?”
Trent Horn:
The answer to this is that the Church teaches that the sacraments are supposed to be celebrated in a suitable place so that the focus is on the sacraments. This is true for the majority of… Obviously like anointing of the sick, you might be sick; you can’t get out of a hospital room. Even there that’s an appropriate place for it. But Canon 857, the Code of Canon law, says “The proper place of baptism is a church or oratory, apart from necessity.” Canon 932: “Eucharistic celebration is to be carried out in a sacred place unless a particular case of necessity requires it… The proper place to hear confessions is a church or oratory… Ordination is generally celebrated in a church.” And then Canon 1118 is on marriage. “A marriage between Catholics or between a Catholic party and a non-Catholic baptized party is to be celebrated in a parish church. It can be celebrated in another church or oratory with the permission of the local ordinary or pastor.”
Trent Horn:
The reason for this is you want the focus to be on the sacrament. Even when you celebrate Mass outside, the focus is on the sacrament. The focus is on the fact that we are watching the sunrise on Easter, because our Easter hope began on Sunday at sunrise, at the beginning of the morning, when the women went to the tomb. So our focus is on the risen Lord who is present to us now in the Eucharist; who, when the sun rises, the Son rises. A little play on words there.
Trent Horn:
So you saw the focus, but getting married, you say, “Well, why do you want to get married on a beach?” “Because it’s so pretty.” “It’s pretty.” “It’s pretty.” Then the focus is that marriage is reduced to the wedding, rather than something that Christ has raised to a sacrament. And we got this all the time when I worked at the Diocese of Phoenix in the marriage office, there was always a request, “can we get married outside?” And the answer is, “Probably not.” Maybe you’ll get an exception if there is a chapel with a courtyard area and there’s some pressing reason. I don’t know what that might be, but there are some exceptions and rare cases that are made to have a marriage that takes place outside of a Catholic Church in a suitable place. Let’s say the bride’s family is Muslim, and they won’t set foot in a Catholic Church, and the bishop’s already given a dispensation… Already, I’m concerned about marriages that start off on this foot, but it is what it is.
Trent Horn:
But in general, the focus is to be on the sacrament. And so weddings outdoors, the reason that’s given is usually not “because we really want the sacrament to be at the forefront.” It’s for other reasons. I remember once actually I think someone said, “Could we do a medieval themed wedding or a Star Wars themed wedding in Church?” No, but you can do a reception. Have at it. Do whatever you like at the reception. That’s the place where, within reason and morality, of course… That’s the important thing to understand there.
Trent Horn:
Let’s see here. “How do we demonstrate our pro-life belief when we don’t support the circumstances the baby was conceived? A very good friend of mine has shared she’s in a polyamorous relationship…” Oh boy. That means more than two people. “… And having a baby by a random donor outside the relationship.” Oh, oh goodness. Okay. “I can’t support several of these choices.” Yeah. “But I want to let her know I genuinely care about this new baby without condoning her actions.”
Trent Horn:
Now these are going to be hard situations. I think this reminds me of what do you do when you have a relative who identifies as gay or lesbian and is in a so-called marriage with someone else? How do you have relationship with them without endorsing this disordered relationship? In that example, I always tell people, focus on the individual rather than the arrangement that is sinful. So if you have a friend or have relatives and they’re in a same sex relationship, instead of getting them a present at Christmas for them as a couple, get them each individually a present to affirm them. Don’t refer to them as “the Johnsons” or something like that. Affirm them as individuals created in the image and likeness of God without affirming their arrangement.
Trent Horn:
But I will say this: Eventually, they should know at least where you stand, and it is just a process of keeping the lines of dialogue open. “Would you like to go to Mass with me?” “Would you like to go to confession?” “Would you like to watch this documentary on the Church and same sex relationships and just tell me what you think about it?” And be prepared. The friendship might wither, honestly, or the relationship might be strained because our friends and families should be the source of spiritual strength. If they’re so far removed from us, it’s a place where we are tried. And so, I don’t want to spend a lot of time with people that try me. I want to be fortified. I’m not saying you should cut people off like “You’re done to me. You’re dead to me.” No, but we should understand that in these relationships, our goal is to witness, and primarily to be good examples.
Trent Horn:
And so sometimes we could say, let’s take in this case, “Wow, I’d love to give this baby a little present.” “Here, I got this for the baby.” But to say, “Hey, you know what? I am going to tell you this: I think it’s sad that this baby is not going to know his real father. I do think this is a very sad thing, but I want to help you love this child. But I think what you’re doing is very sad.” And so there, notice, these are the toughest things, right? Jesus said, “No prophet is accepted in his own home country.” When we talk to friends and family and we express these disagreements and differences, there’s going to be that friction. So we have to find an artful way to be able to share that with others so that they, at the very least, know where we stand. And we can always call them into a dialogue to be closer to the truth.
Trent Horn:
So I would just say avoid the appearance of scandal. I’m not going to go to a baby shower for a weird relationship like this, a disordered relationship like this, but babies need help. They didn’t choose to come. A baby didn’t choose in this situation to be born of a polyamorous relationship. That baby didn’t choose any of this. So if somebody can be an advocate for that baby and be a positive influence in their life, that’s great. Just balance all the other elements that are involved. Don’t cause scandal. Don’t affirm the relationship as is, the arrangement I should say, but focus on the child as an individual. Let your opposition be known graciously and be open for the dialogue. And hopefully God will move their hearts to have that dialogue with you.
Trent Horn:
Let’s see here. What else we got? “You have talked about how you were favorable to the idea that the brothers of Jesus referred to his stepbrothers.” I wouldn’t use that term, but adoptive siblings, that they are in a relationship. They’re adopted siblings, if you will. “If that is the case, shouldn’t one of them have taken Mary into their homes? Jesus gave Mary to John on the cross. Why would He do that if she had stepchildren to take care of her?”
Trent Horn:
So the argument here, and this is a view that I’ve I’ve endorsed for a while, is that the brothers and sisters of the Lord… You can believe that they’re cousins, that’s fine. St. Jerome held that view. I hold to the view that they are children born of Joseph’s previous marriage. And that is something testified very early in Church history, in the early second century, in the Protoevangelium of James and other independent documents, that Joseph was an old man. He had children from her previous marriage. He’s a widow, and then he was betrothed to Mary to protect her. And she had taken a vow of virginity to serve in the temple when she got older. She was then betrothed to Joseph to serve as her protector.
Trent Horn:
And so when Jesus is born, there are other children who are sons and daughters of Joseph. They are not sons and daughters of Mary. So then, why didn’t John entrust Mary to her stepchildren? Remember, I don’t like using that term. It’s anachronistic. That wasn’t really the term they would’ve used back then. The fact of the matter is in this relationship, these are Joseph’s children. They are not Mary’s children. Notice the Bible never calls the brothers and sisters of the Lord, the sons and daughters of Mary. The only son of Mary is Jesus. So that’s why Jesus is even called the son of Mary. Some people say, “oh, it says He’s the son of Mary. That means she only had one child.” No, you could say that someone is the son of someone without implying that… Matthew Horn is the son of Trent Horn. He has other brothers though. Doesn’t mean that he’s the only one. Just trying to get that example in my head.
Trent Horn:
But does say that he calls him son of Mary, which is weird. Which would make sense if what they’re saying is He was born of Mary, born of Joseph’s second wife, not his first wife. So in this family relationship, these children are the biological sons and daughters of Joseph in the previous marriage, and Jesus is also a son of Joseph by adoption. So Jesus is a son of Mary by biology, a son of Joseph by adoption. And so these other sons and daughters of Joseph are his adoptive siblings, that he is the adopted one.
Trent Horn:
However, just because Jesus is adopted by Joseph, it doesn’t follow that Mary subsequently adopted these children. Not everyone even does that today. Sometimes people will get married in step-family relationships, and you won’t go through the full process of adoption, or things like that, in some family relationships, but Mary did not necessarily go through the process of adopting these children. They were probably much older. So they were never technically her sons and daughters. Just because she was married to their father, that did not automatically make them her sons and daughters.
Trent Horn:
Jesus, however, is the only son of Mary, and after his death, Mary was left without a child. And so she was entrusted to John. And of course there’s the larger truth there that John is a spiritual child of Mary, and Mary is a spiritual mother to not just John, but to all believers, that her intercession to lead believers to Christ, as the Catechism says, “She did not set that aside when she was taken up into Heaven.” So I hope that’s a helpful answer. But I would say that the argument for Mary being ever-virgin, the fact that she is entrusted to John at the cross, that argument does not change even if there are people who were born of Joseph. It does not mean that they were children of Mary to be entrusted to. Jesus wanted her to have a son like she had had through him.
Trent Horn:
All right, what else do we have here? “During a Protestant Bible study, we made it to Matthew 16, discussing Peter as the rock. I and surprisingly one other…” Ooh, a Protestant. Talk to them more. “…correctly defended that Jesus is talking about Peter being the rock. One person tried to use Acts 4:11 to say that Jesus was talking about himself. I believe I was able to defend the faith, but I’m curious on how you would approach it.”
Trent Horn:
There’s a lot you can talk about here. You don’t want to beat somebody over the head with it, but someone says, “The rock is Jesus because in Acts 4:11, the apostolic speech there, it says that Christ is the cornerstone. The builders rejected the cornerstone. “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.” I would say we got to be careful here for a metaphor being used in one context to always be applied in another. So that’s why I would be concerned in that respect.
Trent Horn:
To keep it simple with people, I would say, I’ve never understood. “Peter is not the rock in any way, shape or form.” How could that be? Remember, symbols can have multiple meanings. The rock can be Peter’s confession of faith. It can be Peter. It can even be Christ in a sense. Saint Gregory of Nyssa, for example. I don’t have the citation right off top of my head, but Saint Gregory of Nyssa said once that Peter is the rock, because he clung to the rock which is Christ. You can have multiple layers of the metaphor here. The point is not that the rock can mean something else. It can refer to Christ or to Peter’s confession of faith. The point is it also refers to Peter. It also includes Peter.
Trent Horn:
So a Protestant who wants to argue against the papacy has to say that Peter cannot be the rock. And I would say that doesn’t really make sense, because why would Jesus change Simon’s name to Peter if he’s not the rock. “Simon son of Jonah, blessed are you. You are rock. Just kidding. You’re not really rock. I am the rock that we built on the church. I changed your name to rock because you’re not the rock.” It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Peter is the rock in some way. You look at Craig Keener, Oscar Coleman. You look at D.A. Carson. You look at all of these Protestant biblical scholars, they’ll agree: the rock is Peter in some sense. What that means people will debate, but it’s very clear that Simon’s name is changed to Peter. Certainly a play on words. He’s the rock upon which the Church will be built.
Trent Horn:
Last question: “Have recent events influenced how you view Disney? I would like take my kids to Disney World in a few years, but I have reservations about supporting a company that is actively promoting anti-Christian values.”
Trent Horn:
Oh yeah. It is unfortunate. I enjoy when Disney does things well. I love classic Disney films. I enjoy going to Disneyland. I did a video once where I went there and did 50 rides in one day. That was a fun challenge. I mean, they do things artful and well. And so they’ve always been involved on the wrong side of the culture wars. They’ve had the gay days of Disneyland for decades. So when I had my kids, if I took them to Disneyland, I’d just check the calendar. Is it gay day? That’s basically what they call it. I don’t know if they can call it that anymore. LGBTQQIAI2SP day? But I just wouldn’t take my kids on that day. But otherwise it’s fine. But if it keeps being beating me over the head, I don’t like it. They’re testing my patience now with pride month, and that’s over, but during pride month, that’s all over the Disney+ thing. I might just get rid of this, but then if I got rid of Disney+ I’d have to play with my children and read to them… Tough call, very tough call.
Trent Horn:
No, that’s just a little… It’s a fun treat for them. I grew up on TV and I turned out fine. My kids should be okay. But I don’t let them have free reign. I pick specifically what they watch, and usually I only let them watch the shows that I watched as a kid, and I think that’s fine for them. But I’m very scrupulous over the content. If it’s a brand new show, you know what I do? If it’s a brand new cartoon they want to watch, I go online, I search the cartoon’s name, and I search “gay” and “LGBT,” because if there is a gay character or scene, people will be crowing about it on the internet. So if no one’s saying anything, it gives me at least some moral certainty, or a decent amount of rationale to think it’s probably okay for them. At least it doesn’t have those elements. Or I’ll search “sex” or things like that, and usually it’s pretty fine.
Trent Horn:
So yeah, the problem is if it’s like, “Well, I’m not going to support any evil organization.” Oh man, that’s everywhere. There’s evil in every single organization. Everybody’s given to pride month. Your bank gives to it. Target gives to it. So I’m not going to do something direct. I’m not going to buy pride paraphernalia or something. And I only have limited bandwidth to choose how I’m going to live my life. If something is obviously evil right in front of me or directly supports it, I’m not going to do it. But if it has a remote connection to evil, it’s a judgment call. So people who cut off Disney from their lives because they hate what they’re doing, hey, God bless you. Good. I think that’s great. Other people who think, well, there’s some positive goods here and I think I can manage it to show my children as long as I keep the bad stuff away from them. Hey, you’re the parent. As long as you are being responsible.
Trent Horn:
I think there’s some things you shouldn’t cross the line on. I don’t think you should show kids LGBT content. I don’t think you should give them smartphones where they can just be on the internet. I will drop my foot down and say there’s some things parents ought not to do. But in general, I also think parents need to be given a lot of leeway in determining what’s probably best for their families as long as they’re not crossing a moral red line or anything like that. So it’s making me reconsider. If they keep pushing me, I don’t know. We don’t go to Disneyland anymore. We live in Dallas. I’d love to take them back for once just to have fun.
Trent Horn:
But they’ll watch old Disney films. I think they’re great. You know what’s funny to me? Disney cares all about inclusion, and that we want to be inclusive and fight racism, and they still have cartoons that have racist stuff in them. They’ve got the Aristocats with the impressions of Asian people you can’t do anymore, impressions of Native Americans in Peter Pan you can’t do anymore. And Disney just wants to make money, so instead of removing that content, they just have a warning like, “Hey, this isn’t great stuff, but keep that in mind.”
Trent Horn:
The other thing is you should let them know “I’m not going to support this stuff.” So that’s what you can do. Here’s the thing. If you want to turn things around, don’t just dump Disney. So when Lightyear came out, the Buzz Lightyear movie… and who wanted a Buzz Lightyear origin story without Tim Allen? So for me, the way I vote with my dollars is I’m going to watch Disney content that I morally agree with and like for my children, but if you have a movie that violates my values, like the Lightyear movie that has a same sex kiss in it, no, I’m not going to take my children. And guess what? A lot of other people didn’t take their children and the movie bombed. That’s going to make the execs of Disney begin to think twice and realize that the adage “Go woke, get broke…” Sorry, is it “Get woke, go broke?” Get woke, go broke, whatever. Woke equals broke. And maybe they’ll realize that, and they’ll dial back the wokeness a little bit. That’s another thing you can do.
Trent Horn:
Those are my thoughts on that. I hope this was helpful for you guys, and big thanks to our patrons for asking great questions for our open mail bag episode. Love to do another one again relatively soon. Hopefully we won’t take as long as this previous one. If you want to be a part of this and get all of our other benefits, definitely check us out at trenthornpodcast.com. So thank you guys very much, and I hope you have a very blessed day.
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