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In this episode Cy Kellett asks Trent to explain how the Bible can be the Word of God and contain incredibly disturbing depictions of sex and violence.
Welcome to the Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Counsel of Trent Podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers’ apologist and speaker Trent Horn. Right now I am in the midst of writing, writing, writing, writing. The final stretch of writing a book is always the hardest part. So I’m finishing up my book, When Protestants Argue Like Atheists. I almost want to include in the subtitle, And When Catholics Do It Too. I don’t know.
Trent Horn:
I want people to know that this will be an interesting book. I know it’s got more of a provocative title, but I think the thesis, as you’ve seen in my previous videos, it’s really interesting. I’m really excited to be able to share it. So in the meantime, I am just in this home stretch of editing, wordsmithing, filling in citations. You want to know one of the hardest things in writing a book? It’s actually filling out all the footnotes and the endnotes, making sure you have everything documented according to a particular style guide.
Trent Horn:
So it’s a lot. That’s what I’m focusing on right now, but I’m excited about that. I mean, I haven’t even shaved today. I’ve just been up. The last few weeks I want to do nothing except get the book finished and send it off. So that’s one thing that I’m working on right now, but I’ve also got a lot of other dialogues and debates to share with you all, debates to prepare for here at the end of summer. So it’s going to be good.
Trent Horn:
A reminder though, by the way, special offer this month, if you are a patron of the podcast, just go to trenthornpodcast.com. If you are a patron, you get free access to my new apologetics course, Arguing Abortion, so everything with the Supreme Court. Even by the time I’ve recorded this episode, who knows what could have happened with the Supreme Court since then. But regardless of what’s happened, abortion is something everybody is talking about. You want to be able to learn how to talk about it. So if you are a patron, you get free access to my course, Arguing About Abortion at the Catholic Answers School of Apologetics. So if you want that, definitely go to trenthornpodcast.com.
Trent Horn:
So today, though, I want to share with you an interview that I did with Mr. Cy Kellett of the Catholic Answers, Focus Podcast, talking about whether the Bible should be rated NC-17. Is there stuff so disturbing in the Bible that it should be banned? There’s people who say that. So I answer that question for Cy on the Catholic Answers Focus Podcast. Definitely go and subscribe to them if you haven’t done so already. But without further ado, here’s my chat with Cy Kellett on some of the more disturbing parts of the Bible and how we as believers should respond to them.
Cy Kellett:
Trent Horn, apologist extraordinaire. Thank you for being with us again on Catholic Answers Focus.
Trent Horn:
Thank you for having me, Cy.
Cy Kellett:
Are you familiar with articles that begin with the words “Florida man”?
Trent Horn:
Oh yes. Those are hilarious. It’s always, “Florida man does something outlandish.” If it’s a story about something absurd, it’s usually a Florida man doing it.
Cy Kellett:
Well, I want to read you a headline from National Public Radio, my favorite news outlet. Florida man asks schools to ban the Bible following the state’s effort to remove books. And this is what we’re going to talk about today because the state was removing books like Gender Queer, A Memoir. And this gentleman’s view was, well, the Bible has the same kind of material. It’s got rape and incest in it. It’s got all kinds of nasty stuff, so we should get it out. So let me ask you this. Should the Bible be rated NC-17?
Trent Horn:
Well, I definitely think that we should not whitewash or ignore the fact that the Bible is not written for children. I wouldn’t necessarily call it NC-17, but well, there are passages in scripture that use very strong, even sometimes profane language that is definitely for more of a mature audience.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
And sometimes it describes scenes or episodes with violence, including sexual violence that is extremely disturbing. So I would not consider it pornographic. For example. I think some of these books are rightfully banned in schools that have especially visual depictions of sexuality for children under the guise of sex education. I’d say miseducation or indoctrination. But on the other hand, we should understand. Say, “Well, you know what? Yes, the Bible contains disturbing elements to it.” And so we need to be prepared for that because atheists and other critics of the Bible often bring this up to try to discredit it. And if your only memory of the Bible is just kind of warmed over Sunday school lessons, you can end up being shocked by those criticisms.
Trent Horn:
Actually, there is a book called The Brick Bible. I think it’s by Brendon Powell Smith. He’s an atheist. And it looks like a nice children’s Lego Bible, but it’s all the disturbing Bible stories acted out with Legos.
Cy Kellett:
That’s very clever.
Trent Horn:
Oh yeah. And you have parents who buy it and complain. Like, “I can’t believe this, if my children saw this.” And he’s like, “I’m just depicting what’s in the Bible in doing this.” And so that’s why I think we have to understand the mature elements of the Bible, realize this is not a book for children though has many parts that are helpful for children. So we have to understand what it is and be able to put everything into its proper context. And to understand that the Bible talks about God. It’s a history of salvation. Salvation history is woven all through scripture.
Trent Horn:
So we have to ask, it’s salvation saved from what? Saved from sin and sin is ugly. It is depraved. Many of us are very numb to sin. It takes extremely horrifying sins to snap, to wake us up to see how bad sin is. And sometimes that’s why the Bible does that.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. So it’s not just a holy book that’s separated from human history. It’s very carnal.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
I mean, well, the whole idea is that at its peak it’s about the incarnation of God, God getting in the mud here with us.
Trent Horn:
That’s right. While taking on the form of sinful flesh, as Paul says in his letter to the Romans, but without sin as Hebrews 4:15 tells us. So Jesus becomes man, and he leads a life in perfect obedience to God in contrast to you, me, and especially even some of these other examples that are in scripture.
Trent Horn:
So I think, as I said before, it’s important to be able to understand that the Bible, while it contains wisdom literature, like let’s say Proverbs, the Bible itself is not a holy book of the same genre as maybe the Tao Te Ching or the Analects of Confucius. It’s not just a bunch of wisdom literature. There are many narratives, and some of the narratives are disturbing, and that is the point of them.
Cy Kellett:
Should we look at a few of those stories?
Trent Horn:
Yeah. Let’s do it.
Cy Kellett:
Because you wrote the book Hard Sayings, which is about some of the most disturbing things in the Bible and how do we deal with them? So let’s talk about the Levite and his concubine. First of all, concubine, what? How can children read this book? It’s got a concubine in it.
Trent Horn:
Well, right. And that’s why the Bible describes things though. That’s an important interpretive rule when it comes to scripture. In fact, I have several rules in my book, Hard Sayings, that cover this. And one of those is just because the Bible records it doesn’t mean God recommends it.
Cy Kellett:
Yes, that’s a very important one. Right.
Trent Horn:
That’s super important. Because for example, here’s a quote from the revolution, or at least around the time of the Revolutionary War. Thomas Paine, the American author wrote the book Age of Reason. Here’s what he wrote. He said of the Bible, “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God.” Now that’s a little hyperbolic. I would say, when you read the Bible more than half is not these difficult stories.
Cy Kellett:
No.
Trent Horn:
But these difficult stories do appear. And so the Levite and the concubine, the fact that he has a concubine and not a wife to engage in the marital act with, that’s actually the tip of the iceberg for this story, for things being bad.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right. So I guess this would apply to polygamy and all other kinds of-
Trent Horn:
Right. Or the buying and selling of slaves in the Old Testament, that this was something that was regulated at a time where there wasn’t easy access to credit. So for many people, the only collateral they had was themselves and they would sell themselves into slavery if the alternative was starvation. So the Bible describes ways of regulating this kind of behavior.
Trent Horn:
That’s another rule I have in scripture, just because the Bible regulates it doesn’t mean that God recommends it. Sometimes God works with our human imperfection and allows an imperfect world. Pope Benedict the 16th said that the laws of the Old Testament especially, he wrote this in his apostolic exhortation Verbum Domini. He says it contains prescriptions that are imperfect and provisional, were the words that Pope Benedict used and especially of these things. So sometimes what it regulates and also what it records people engaging, including people that otherwise would’ve been good, upstanding people who followed God but certainly weren’t perfect.
Cy Kellett:
That’s what I wanted to ask you about next, because you have this. I mean, it’s easy to dismiss the Levite, but what about-
Trent Horn:
Well should we say more about what happened in that story? What continues?
Cy Kellett:
Yes, okay.
Trent Horn:
Because it gets worse. So the Levite is staying in the town of Gibeah, and he is going to sleep in the street for the night. He’s offered lodging and then a group of men come to the home to abuse him and he offers them his concubine instead. They basically spend all night gang raping the concubine, and they leave her dead body at the doorstep of where the Levite is staying. The Levite, at first he’s like, “Get up, let’s go.” And then he realizes she’s dead. Like he’s totally heartless.
Trent Horn:
So then seeing that his concubine has been gang raped and murdered, he cuts the concubine up into multiple pieces and sends her body to the other tribes. And people are just absolutely startled. I think Judges 19:30 says that nothing like this had happened in Israel before.
Trent Horn:
And what’s interesting is this comes after the time of Sampson, and after the time when Sampson was a judge, it said that there is no king. Judges 19:1, there was no king in Israel. So it was kind of a lawless place. So then he chops up the pieces, sends it to them. The other tribes get together and they go against the tribe of Benjamin where this happened. Benjamin won’t be held responsible. They end up slaughtering the tribe of Benjamin in a war. And then to make sure the tribe doesn’t go out of existence, all but 600 members of Benjamin are slaughtered. And so they go to the land of Shiloh to kidnap dancing girls there to procure wives for these people. So it’s a horrible, horrible affair.
Cy Kellett:
The whole thing, beginning to end.
Trent Horn:
Beginning to end. And so a lot of people will read this and they’ll say, look at how awful the Bible is. And it never says this is terrible. Well, the biblical authors don’t think that we’re idiots. Once again, we’re not children. It’s not like we have to say, “And remember kids, this was bad.” In fact, one of my favorite verses in scripture, kind of “favorite”, is the last verse of the Book of Judges, which is Judges 21:25. And it says after all of these atrocities, “In those days, there was no king in Israel. Every man did what was right in his own eyes.”
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
The end. And so the point here is that some stories and narratives or even books, like the whole Book of Judges is just don’t do this.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
And a lot of times the Bible will teach us spiritual lessons, not necessarily be like this person, but many times it’s, don’t be like this person.
Cy Kellett:
Sure. Right. Or here’s the consequence of having neither God nor man as your king, that people end up here.
Trent Horn:
Right. And see what will happen, of man’s wicked heart, what will happen?
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So, but like you said, this is a coldhearted person, this Levite.
Trent Horn:
Unnamed Levite. Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
But Lot’s a good guy. And that’s what I wanted to ask you about. Because you started to allude to this a little bit earlier.
Trent Horn:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
Lot’s not a bad man, and he does a very creepy thing.
Trent Horn:
Well scripture, yes, the story of Lot. So Lot was a relative of Abraham. I believe he was his nephew. And they were dwelling in the land and the land cannot sustain both of their animals and their families. So they went their separate ways. And then middle way through Genesis, well, before we get to Genesis 19 and the famous story of Sodom and Gomorrah, it said and Lot looked towards the land of Sodom and anyone reading that would’ve been like, “Oh!” So it’s just funny. You and I are so removed. But many of these things, people of the ancient world would’ve raised the hair on the back of their necks.
Trent Horn:
So then we fast forward. Lot has been living in Sodom and Gomorrah a mixed, immoral unrighteous people. Second Peter 2:7 says that Lot was righteous, that God rescued righteous Lot. Because you remember, Abraham makes a bet with God. Can I get 10 righteous people? You won’t destroy the city. God says, sure. And his Abraham walks away, good luck, because God knows there aren’t that many righteous people. And so the city is destroyed.
Trent Horn:
But before that, two angelic visitors disguised as men enter the city. Lot gives them hospitality. The men of Sodom come to Lot’s house saying, we want to know your guests. In the biblical sense, they want to rape them. And so Lot says, please do not assault these guests under my roof. Here have my daughters who have never known a man. Don’t rape my guests, rape my daughters instead. And the the mob does not want them. The angels blind the crowd. They flee the city. And then a [inaudible 00:14:41] film commences with fire raining down and they all flee. And they’re told not to look back, and Lot’s wife looks back and turns into a pillar of salt as a result of that.
Trent Horn:
And so they flee. And so it’s Lot and his daughters that have fled the city. And so it’s interesting. You know, it says righteous Lot. How could we say that? He offered his daughters to a rape-y mob.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Here once again, we have to say that just because the Bible describes someone as righteous doesn’t mean the same thing that they’re saying that they’re perfect. Zachariah is called righteous in Luke’s gospel, the father of John the Baptist. But he was punished by God for not believing the angel’s message. So because you’re righteous means overall you try to do good.
Trent Horn:
Like Lot was a judge in the city. He would sit at the city gate and judge disputes. So you’d always want someone who’s righteous and fair, a fair person to be a judge. But I think the people of Sodom, they resented Lot because of that, because he had the moral high horse. So they go to his house and they say, “You were the foreigner and now you come to play the judge among us.” Like he thinks he’s better. You think you’re better than the rest of us. And so it’s like, well, yeah, he’s someone who tried to do good, but at the same time he committed a major moral misstep. It doesn’t mean we should emulate everything Lot did just because he was overall trying to do good.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Trent Horn:
Now some people will say, well look, he does this. And in one sense, he’s trying to protect his visitors. That’s the oath of hospitality. But he fails in his primary duty of being a father in that respect so he is morally wayward. Now some people will say, “Well Trent, look, it says he is righteous Lot. And he does this and God doesn’t even punish him for offering up his daughters.” Here we have to remember that sometimes in the Old Testament we see divine punishment through ironic turns of events.
Trent Horn:
So what happens after this? After Lot and his daughters flee, they go up into the hill country into an isolated place and the daughters say, there’s not a man among us. We’re the last people on earth basically. Let us get our father drunk so we may bear children. So they get Lot drunk, so drunk. He’s so drunk he has sex with his own daughters. And then we learned that the children are the ancestors of the Moabites and the Ammonites who are Israel’s enemies, born of this wickedness.
Trent Horn:
So clearly Lot is still off the horse because he seems to voluntarily drink enough alcohol to allow this to happen. You know, his drunkenness is a sin and he partakes. And so here, it’s kind of an ironic punishment. Lot offered up his daughters to be raped to a mob. And divine Providence allows Lot to end up being raped by his own daughters. And see now the shame that has become of you.
Cy Kellett:
Wow.
Trent Horn:
So I think that if anything the text that is the ironic punishment that Lot’s name will always carry this, what’s happened to him.
Trent Horn:
Another example of the ironic punishment would be Jacob in scripture, right? Remember Jacob steals Esau’s birthright by pretending. He puts on the furry gloves to pretend to be Esau. And you think, wow, this is the hero? Scripture is full of a lot of anti-heroes, flawed people. But he gets his comeuppance because then later his uncle Laban, remember, tricks him into marrying Leah. Think about this, that Jacob tricks Isaac into getting the birthright by making Isaac think that Jacob is somebody else. And Laban is able to trick Jacob by making him think that Leah was someone else, was Rachel the daughter he really wanted to marry. And then he still gets the comeuppance.
Trent Horn:
Later when Joseph is sold into slavery, Joseph’s brothers make Jacob think that he had been killed by animals. They take animal skins and bring it with blood and try to show him, look, he’s been killed. And here Jacob is deceived by animal skins just like he deceived Isaac.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right. So there’s a sense in the Bible that the punishment isn’t this immediate lightning bolt on these people. But there is a sense that there’s this ironic twist that comes into their life.
Trent Horn:
Because God is sovereign. He’s provident over everything. Now, sometimes it is immediate like when David committed adultery. Nathan told him that because of what had happened, he would lose the death of his firstborn child, for example. Sometimes the scripture is very immediate and declarative about punishments that otherwise good people receive for doing evil things. But other times I think it’s more, we see this providential treatment from God through the course of an ironic course of events.
Cy Kellett:
So I have to say, though, from this conversation we’ve had thus far, and we’ve got a couple more of these to get to. The person who says maybe the Bible is not for children, I feel more sympathetic to that person the more of these stories I’m listening to this morning.
Trent Horn:
Yes. Now I think they go too far if they say the Bible is pornographic or trying to compare it to things that we don’t want, especially in a school library.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Trent Horn:
But I think that having obviously holy books from lots of different religions is good to place in a library. Especially we have to think of practical concerns here. Children aren’t going to be picking up the Bible and flipping its way to the prophets to read about the nasty language there, that they will with a book with colorful print designed for kids to be misled on LGBTQ issues and things like that.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Trent Horn:
But on the other hand, we don’t want to follow the other extreme. We should soberly admit, yeah, the Bible is not a book for children. It contains very mature themes. That’s why biblical education for children should be done under the care of their parents, or with trusted people to help them to understand God’s word, to help to understand salvation history. And prudence would require us that when we educate children to protect their innocence.
Trent Horn:
So there are some biblical stories, we’re not going to share every detail with. Some. And we might use different terms depending on the age of the children. But that’s why I have to remember, once again, when we think of the Bible as just warmed over stories we heard in Sunday school that was accommodated to us as children. That’s not the Bible as it is.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right. Okay. So let’s go back to the Book of Judges. Jephthah does makes a pledge, makes an oath to God and he follows through on the oath. So that would seem to be a salutary thing to follow through on an oath you made to God. But to us, maybe even to the readers then it looks awful evil what he did.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. So Jephthah was individual in the Book of Judges. The judges are about these individuals who were raised up to be, I think in Hebrew it’s a shofet, to be a judge, a leader of Israel, to keep them from being enslaved. In this case, to deliver Israel from the Ammonites who we go back, their ancestors were the children from Lot and his daughters. So they go and Jephthah makes a vow. He says to God, if you’ll give the Ammonites into my hand, whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me when I return from the Ammonites shall be the Lords. I will offer him up for a burnt offering. So according to a popular reading of this Jephthah is saying, God, if I win the battle, I’ll sacrifice somebody from my house, whoever walks out the front doors. So then people read this saying that, oh, the Bible promotes human sacrifice, killing people to please God.
Trent Horn:
Well, what happens with the rest of the story and how do we interpret this? So Jephthah makes this vow. And then in a few verses later, it says, what happens. When he came home victorious from the battle, his daughter dancing with timbrels, his only child came out to meet him. “Alas, my daughter, you brought me very low. You have become the cause of great trouble to me.” More like Jephthah, you became the cause of great trouble to her.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right.
Trent Horn:
So now it said later that she wept for her virginity and he did with her according to his vow. And the vow, well, I think he says to offer as a burnt offering. Because some people there’s different ways of interpreting that. Some people think that she was then offered as a consecrated virgin, but it really talks about a burnt offering that I will offer up to you. So I don’t think that’s a plausible explanation. Some people have said the Hebrew word [foreign language 00:23:27], I will offer up, could be translated whatever walks out, not necessarily whoever. So he could have said any animal that comes out to greet me, I’ll offer up. That’s a bit more plausible. There were domesticated dogs in Israel at this time, and small animals oftentimes lived in homes.
Trent Horn:
But I think the horror of the story, and once again the ironic twist, it seems more that Jephthah was willing to sacrifice one of his slaves to offer up to God for a victory, and his beloved daughter comes out instead. And he carries out the vow. And once again, we don’t see God declarative statement, “Look at how evil Jephthah was.” Rather, the ancient Israelites hearing the story when they first heard Jephthah make the vow, would’ve gasped in horror because Israel had always been told that human sacrifices wrong.
Trent Horn:
That’s why the story of Abraham and Isaac, when Isaac is told by God to do this, is so horrifying. Because you think, well, God would never ask us to do this. What’s going on here? If it was just something you could do, oh, you know, whatever, I guess I got to make a big sacrifice today. Rather over and over, it’s told do not be like the Canaanites. Do not send your children through the fire to Molech.
Trent Horn:
And so here, Jephthah is just another example of that. He is partaking this Gentile morality, trying to wed it to the God of Israel by saying, I’ll offer you a sacrifice. It’s going to be something really good, a human being, one of my slaves, reportedly. And instead it’s his daughter who comes out. So once again, just because the Bible records it, does not mean that God recommends it. Rather, especially all throughout the Book of Judges, we have these flawed people, Jephthah, Sampson, Gideon. These people who also have some virtues, who did things by faith, who weren’t totally bad, but they weren’t totally good. They also had extremely serious flaws.
Cy Kellett:
But I mean, when you, when you use the phrase salvation history, immediately we should be made comfortable with the fact that a history has stages to it. And so that a virtuous person in the early part of salvation history is not going to be the same thing as a virtuous person at the end. You have to go through the process to get to that full virtue.
Trent Horn:
Right. And so I think that is what is important here to see. Look, it’s like what St. Paul says about the Old Testament law. In his letter to the Galatians, he calls it a [foreign language 00:25:55]. Okay. So it’s essentially like a nanny or a tutor all mixed into one, that this is something that guides and walks us through, that as the children of God develop, essentially, throughout salvation history, there are things expected of them in the Old Testament or expected in the New, not necessarily in the Old. Just like you give different responsibilities to your 16-year-old than you do to your six-year-old. And you tolerate behaviors in your six-year-old. You tolerate, let’s say, a two-year-old throwing a tantrum or a one-year- old. You don’t tolerate a teenager doing that.
Trent Horn:
So the people of God had this same progressive understanding that God had to move them through. That’s another theme in Benedict’s apostolic exhortation. Oh, I also want to point out though, before we go on, we should understand that this graphic nature of scripture is not written for children. There are graphic parts to it. Two examples that I would give where God, sometimes the human author who under divine inspiration, he’s got to get the message out to his audience. And he has to smack them across the head to do it.
Trent Horn:
So one example is in the prophets. Ezekiel 23:20, where oftentimes in scripture, Israel’s idolatry is compared to an adulterer’s infidelity. That’s a very common message, that to betray God is as serious as betraying your spouse and they don’t pull any punches. Ezekiel 23:20, this is the NIV translation, renders it this way of Israel: She lusted after her lovers whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
Cy Kellett:
Gross.
Trent Horn:
But there he’s trying to drive on the point. You would go to these idols, you are like a barbaric idolater, an animalistic person who only wants graphic sexuality. Look at the sin that you have committed.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right.
Trent Horn:
And so here, the point of these descriptions, it’s not pornographic. So to go back to our original discussion, is the Bible NC-17? It’s like when Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once said of what is pornography? He says, “I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.” Okay? This would be explicit themes, but it’s not written for the purpose of arousing the viewer. It’s written more for the purpose of getting the reader’s attention.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right.
Trent Horn:
And then there’s other parts where there uses romantic language, that are using language to understand the relation that when things are going well with Israel and with God, it’s like when a marriage goes really well. And the biggest example of that would be the Song of Solomon. The Song of Solomon, it’s a love song of one’s beloved. And I mean, it’s not as explicit as what we heard in Ezekiel 23, but he talks about the things he enjoys about his beloved spouse. Her breasts, he seems to enjoy that. You blow upon my garden, let its fragrance be wafted abroad. Let my beloved come to his garden, eat its choicest fruits. There that that might be something that might go over a kid’s head, but you see, wow, this is this passionate stuff here.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
But once again, it’s not written for children. It’s not written for children, but it’s not pornographic. It’s written for an adult, for the sacred author to reach an adult at various levels sometimes with very visceral language.
Cy Kellett:
It’s certainly not pornographic because it’s analogical and there’s no analogy in pornography. Pornography is merely stimulus. It’s visual, auditory stimulus. It’s not an analogical way of communicating.
Trent Horn:
Right. And there’s not explicit descriptions of sexual acts. You know, he knew her. He came into her, things like that.
Cy Kellett:
All right. So you gave us a couple of video clips that I’d like to close with about kind of infantalizing the Bible, and your take on the story of Noah. First of all, the story of Noah is not a charming little tale.
Trent Horn:
Well, that’s the thing. What’s interesting here, Cy, is that many of these examples like Jephthah, the Levite, and the concubine of Gibeah, Lot, or even Sodom and Gomorrah, what happens afterwards with Lot and his daughters, a lot of people don’t know about those stories, because they’re not told in Sunday school. These really difficult parts of scripture, many of them, we do not hear as children and rightfully so.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
But there is one story I worry about infantilizing people and not taking the Bible seriously in treating it like it’s a children’s book. There’s one very grim story that we infantilize that we turn into a children’s tale. And that would be the story of Noah’s flood. Think about what is going on in this story. Mankind has become so wicked God has decided to drown every human being. Now whether you interpret it as the entire globe or just the entire world that the sacred author knew, God intended to drown men, women, and children, to end human existence.
Trent Horn:
That is a grim story that would have to be justified. Like how wicked would humanity have to be and how much would they have to understand that God is the sacred author of life, and that if we do not show respect to God, God is within his right to, he can give us as much or as little life as he wants. These are heavy and weighty themes and a grim story that’s horrifying. And yet it is one of the most popular stories to have fun for children.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
And I owe my friend Randal Rauser made this observation, so I’m borrowing it from him. It’s stuck with me. You know, there’s plush toys. I think there’s a water park called Noah’s Arc. There’s kids songs. It’s in all kinds of children’s literature. And especially now in modern times, Cy, I’m really concerned that it is infantilized. In the clips I want to show you here, there’s two separate ways of sharing the story with children. One I don’t like, and one I actually do like,
Cy Kellett:
All right, so let’s start with the first clip, which is a Veggie Tale depiction of the story of Noah.
Clip:
All right, son, what is it?
Clip:
Why did God ask you to build this boat?
Clip:
Because the earth is going to be flooded, Jim.
Clip:
Okay. What!?
Clip:
God has seen that no one cares about doing what’s right anymore. So he’s going to start over.
Clip:
You mean-
Clip:
The arc will save us from the flood. This is God’s plan
Clip:
Dad. This is the craziest most unbelievable thing I’ve ever heard.
Clip:
We must trust in God. If we do I know that he will see us through. There are things we believe.
Cy Kellett:
Oh man, the songs are the best part of Veggie Tales. All right. So give us your take on that Veggie Tales Noah’s Ark story.
Trent Horn:
Blimey, they’re going to flood the earth. Sounds like Jerry Lewis first a little bit for Noah. But here’s the thing and, yeah, I’m just not a big fan of Veggie Tales. I understand some people like it. I’m not going to condemn people who enjoy showing that to their children. But the biblical stories need to be taken real seriously. And I just don’t see how it can be taken seriously when the biblical characters are tomatoes and zucchini. It turns it to the level of like a cartoon, like a children’s cartoon instead.
Trent Horn:
I don’t mind using the medium of animation to share the stories, but not to turn the Bible into a cartoon. And I think the problem here is look at what he says, like he’s going to flood the whole world. Why? Well, people just don’t want to be good anymore. What? It’s a bit more to it than that. Like this is a huge thing that is happening. The loss of human life. And no one cares about doing what’s right. It makes it sound like people got kind of morally lazy.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. It sounds like God’s very capricious too. I mean, children don’t miss this kind of stuff. They’d be like, well, wait a second. Does that mean God’s going to flood my house if I have a bad day? I mean, it’s very capricious stuff.
Trent Horn:
Yeah, if I don’t care about doing what’s good. Obviously I’m not expecting a children’s cartoon to be able to answer the philosophical difficulties of does God have the right to end human life. And I understand people having difficulties with that, no matter how it’s portrayed. And that’d be a subject obviously for another episode. But my point is that when we enter into the story, it should be taken seriously in this regard as to why would God do something like this? And that’s why the second clip, I way prefer. In fact, I don’t show my kids Veggie Tales, stuff like that.
Trent Horn:
For Bible animated shorts, I like that better than cartoons, I show them The Greatest Stories Ever Told. It’s produced by Hanna-Barbera. This was done, I think, back in like the eighties and early nineties. It has great celebrity voicecasts. Ed Asner is the voice of Joshua in one of them. And it’s about three people from the modern world who get thrown back in time to the biblical era. And so they’re the fish out of water and everyone explains to them what’s going on. And I think it’s done in a good way.
Trent Horn:
Many of these stories understand the serious issues that are at hand. And the episode about Noah’s arc opens with a prologue that really talks about the wickedness that happened before the flood. So we can definitely check that out.
Clip:
So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people for the earth is filled with violence and corruption. Because of this I am going to destroy both them and the earth.” Thus because wickedness abounded everywhere, mankind had condemned itself to extinction. In all the land only Noah-
Trent Horn:
Okay. Also people, if you’re just listening to this via the podcast, it shows like people fighting in a tavern.
Cy Kellett:
Robbing somebody.
Trent Horn:
Clubbing somebody over the head and taking their money. Women dancing around, people gleefully laughing and killing each other. I mean, it’s not graphic, but it’s disturbing. You have dark clouds, lightning. You have an idol that people are sacrificing to presumably. So at least gets the point across. Why would God do this? And it’s because God is a God of justice, and sin is serious. The lesson I’d want a kid to take away from this is sin kills our relationship with God. And that when we choose grave mortal sins like idolatry, malicious violence, adultery, these different things that kills our relationship with God and incurs a judgment as a result.
Trent Horn:
Now, will I say all of that to my four-year-old who’s watching? No, but I’m more comfortable with him watching this because he gets the idea at the very least, Hey, this is serious.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
And when I want him thinking about the Bible, I want him to know this is serious. It’s joyful. And we have joy that comes from this and hope. But we have that because that there are stakes at place here. There are high stakes.
Cy Kellett:
Well, thanks, Trent. I really appreciate this conversation. I mean, my kids did watch Veggie Tales and I do not know if you know this, but there has never, ever, ever, ever, ever been a show like Veggie Tales.
Trent Horn:
I believe you. Imagine if there’s like a rip off of it. Fruit fables. Tell the Bible stories the fruits. You have been sued into oblivion.
Cy Kellett:
Tomato is a fruit by the way. All right, well, Trent, I really appreciate it because it is important for us. And as a matter of fact, I almost think there might be an apologetic value when someone presents the Bible to you to say, well, you’re not a child. Like, let’s think about this as an adult. Like, here’s what happened. Here’s the condition of humanity.
Trent Horn:
And this is what sin does to us.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
What am I going to do about my sins and what will you do about your sins?
Cy Kellett:
Thank you, Trent.
Trent Horn:
Thank you, Cy.
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