As the abortion debate rages, Trent offers thought-provoking questions to ask pro-choice proponents and comments on video of a college student harassing pro-life students.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Counsel of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn: I was going to do an open mailbag episode today. That might have to be pushed to next week probably, because the stars have aligned, the YouTube videos have come together. Things that are happening in the news, I felt compelled, dear listener, to speak with you today and give you some advice and tips on talking about the most important moral issue of our day.
Trent Horn: Welcome to the Counsel of Trent podcast. I am your host, Catholic Answers, Apologist and speaker, Trent Horn. Today I wanted to talk about the issue of abortion. You would expect me to talk about that. I mean, I do “Why are you Pro-Choice” shows and Catholic Answers Live. I’ve written a book, Persuasive Pro-Life. But following the news with the Georgia Heartbeat Bill and Alabama’s Senate, today as I record this, having passed their ban on abortion which is essentially a total ban on abortion in the state, that will go to the Governor’s desk and hopefully will be signed, sets us up for challenges at the Supreme Court over legal abortion.
Trent Horn: Please pray that that goes well, and this goes all the way to the Supreme Court, and maybe the court will rule in a way that allows states to do something, something meaningful in some way, to be able to defend the unborn and the respective wishes of the majority of people in many of these states and many of these places who do want to defend the lives of unborn children. But, you’re bound to hear people talking about this. Maybe Alyssa Milano has invaded your life somehow.
Trent Horn: I’m not sure how she should do that. Alyssa Milano only invades my life on Saturday afternoons if the TV is left on, and there is a rerun of Charmed, which is not a very good television show, not even one to have on in the background if you’re doing the dishes or something like that. I could maybe put Gilmore Girls on in the background. That would be okay. Even Gilmore Girls sounds like two little birdies chitter-chattering away with each other really fast in an incomprehensible way. I actually heard that the Gilmore Girls scripts, or their TV episodes, are three times as long as other shows because they talk so darn fast.
Trent Horn: Alyssa Milano has been in the news. I don’t know why the former Charmed actress somehow is now this major commentator on current affairs, at least on moral issues. I don’t know how that happened. Someone, help me understand that. I think she’s called on people of Georgia to go on a sex strike. It’s not a really original plea. That comes from the old play by Aristophanes, called Lysistrata. I love though other feminists are taking Alyssa Milano to task for saying, “We should not use sex as a bargaining chip. We are not objects.”
Trent Horn: Also, Pro-Lifers have rightly point out Alyssa Milano has said, “If abortion is not legal in Georgia, we have to go on strike. Women can’t have sex. It’s too dangerous.” Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, Alyssa Milano. I thought that if you were worried about getting pregnant, you could just contraceptives. We wouldn’t have to worry about abortion. You can use contraceptives. But apparently, oh no my friend, contraceptives are not anything that you can guarantee for your “safety” when it comes to having sex and not getting pregnant. Yet, you have to have abortion as an ultimate backup apparently.
Trent Horn: I love that Milano is criticized by her own ilk, and proves Pro-Lifers’ points when it comes to the effectiveness of abstinence. You hear this in a lot of different places. People will be talking about it in the news, and they might be asking your opinion. Two things I wanted to do in this episode. First, I want to share with you a video. I have to comment on it because it speaks to me in many different ways. It’s about a Pro-Choice advocate on the university campus taking property from a Pro-Life advocate and finally having campus security and police do something about that.
Trent Horn: We’re going to see this more. People are going to get more heated on the other side when they feel like they’re going to lose when it comes to the issue of abortion. They’re going to resort to, frankly, criminal tactics. We have to respond with grace and witness, and not stoop to their levels, abut also hold them accountable for their criminal activity. Second, I just wanted to go through the nine questions, I think I had nine written down here. Who knows, that might expand as I go on. Questions that you should ask someone who’s Pro-Choice that when you’re in these conversations online, on Twitter, on Facebook or in person with others, remember that the Trent Horn Method, you hear me on Catholic Answers Live, asking questions is the easiest way to move a conversation forward and diffuse any hostility or tensions that are present.
Trent Horn: I’m going to get to those questions here in a sec, and this video, but before I do that big thanks once again to our supporters. Be sure to go and check out TrentHornPodcast.com. I have my catechism study and scripture study up this week. I’m just talking about… They’re short videos, and I want to have a bunch of short ones and eventually combine them maybe into a future app. The scripture study I’m talking about, the beginning of Matthew, Mark and Luke’s gospel, and the little interesting tidbits you’ll find in there in the manuscript histories behind them. So, always good to learn something. If you want access to the study series, special thank you videos from me, the ability to vote on future content, consider becoming a subscriber at TrentHornPodcast.com.
Trent Horn: Now, let’s go to this video. Here’s the situation, the University of North Carolina. This video was put out by Created Equal, they are a Pro-Life group similar to other Pro-Life groups I’ve worked with in the past that go to university campuses with graphic images of abortion to educate students about what abortion is and a dialogue with them. Created Equal was on the campus of University of North Carolina. It was actually raining. I think there was hardly anywhere there, but they were out there in the rain with their signs talking to people. So, good job guys, having the persistence to go out and do that.
Trent Horn: A young girl comes up to one of the guys. She’s like, “What’s on this sign?” He says, “Well, it’s a warning sign. There’re graphic images ahead.” She takes the sign then walks away with it. Now, if you want to watch the video for yourself, you can go to my Twitter or Facebook page. I have linked to it there. I just want to play it here and just offer some of my commentary on it, because it’s indicative of mindsets of those who support abortion, and the mindsets of the left on university campuses.
Trent Horn: Now, I had someone on Facebook say to me in a comment, he said, “Well, do you really need to say that they’re left or liberal? Why not just say they’re heterodox, unorthodox, non-Catholic?” Here is the thing, I can’t do that because in my experience the propensity to want to shut down speech and stifle debate is not a Catholic/non-Catholic thing. I know lots of non-Catholics who are not liberal, not part of the left, who believe in free speech. I mean, you’ve got people like obviously Ben Shapiro for example, who’s Jewish. But, even people that are not religious, people like Dave Reuben. You have other libertarians who are not particularly religious, people you might find in the reason crowd.
Trent Horn: Or, non-religious people like the Joe Rogan types, Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson is quasi religious. These people who are definitely not Catholic, and even not super Christian, who believe in free speech and hate the idea of shutting down speech on campus. The group, to me, that is indicative of one to shut down debate and shut down speech are not non-Catholics in general. They are those who identify as liberals who are particularly campus liberals. There are Catholics in those groups who make convoluted arguments saying that they ought to shut down speech.
Trent Horn: There’s something endemic to modern liberalism, especially on university campuses, that believes that it is in the interest of all to shut down debate and to do things… They consider speech they disagree with to be violence. That if you say abortion not to be illegal, that is the same as committing violence against women so violence can be committed against you and your property. This woman takes a guy’s sign. She’s walking away and she walks right up to a police officer. He kind of heads her off at the pass. Here’s where the video starts off. Here’s when the police officer comes in.
Speaker 3: Don’t do that. Don’t do that.
Trent Horn: That’s the guy whose sign was taken. Here comes the cop.
Speaker 4: Where’s the sign?
Speaker 5: I just moved it.
Speaker 4: You just did what?
Speaker 5: I just moved it.
Speaker 4: You just moved it? So, you took it.
Trent Horn: I love the cop. He says, “Did you take their sign?” And she tries to be all demure, “I just moved it. I don’t know.” That’s the other thing that’s hard for me, that on modern campuses students are treated like five year olds. Even my four year old, I would expect better than this. Students on university campuses… Now, some people may say, “Be kind to this girl,” and you know what? I don’t know what her backstory is. I have prayed for this girl, and you should pray for her that her heart is more open to the truth. I’m not just bashing on this young woman, but the problem is, this is an attitude that pervades campuses.
Trent Horn: Faculty and administrators encourage this by telling young people that they are not in control of their actions, that something they read or see, and they disagree with, can be “triggering”, so they can’t be held responsible for their actions. So, I don’t blame the students even. I blame administrators and the 487 diversity counselors you have to have on modern universities. Do you want to know why universities are so expensive? Because they have to hire like 87 diversity counselors and administrators. They have to hire useless numbers of administrators on many universities. That’s what drives up the costs.
Trent Horn: These people who are charged with maintaining diversity on campus, they don’t have a job unless they show there are problem, and there’s hate and bigotry, which is why you need the diversity counselor to save the day. They encourage students to have a victimized mentality. Robby Soave is a journalist with Reason Magazine. He’s great at this stuff. I love the things that he writes. He has a new book coming out, and I’m probably going to read and review it, called Panic Attack: Young Activists in the Age of Trump, that talks about how young college students are treated by faculty and administrators to act like victims who aren’t responsible for their own actions.
Trent Horn: The cop comes in and he’s having none of this.
Speaker 4: Who was holding it?
Speaker 3: Me. [inaudible 00:10:18] she just ripped it out of my hands.
Speaker 4: She just ripped it out of your hand?
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 4: Why did you rip it out of his hand?
Speaker 5: Because, [inaudible 00:10:26].
Trent Horn: He’s like, “Why’d you rip it out of his hands?” “Because,” she taps the sign, “this sign takes away women’s rights.” So this is that liberal mindset, the campus mindset of speech I disagree with is violent, it hurts people, so I can respond in kind to it.
Speaker 4: [inaudible 00:10:44] women’s rights? Would you get it [inaudible 00:10:46] sign please?
Speaker 5: They’re promoting lies on college campus.
Speaker 4: Okay. Can you get off the sign before you damage the property? Okay.
Speaker 5: I can’t believe y’all protect them.
Speaker 4: Nope, you’re not going anywhere. Right now you’re being detained, okay?
Speaker 5: Detained for what?
Speaker 4: Larceny. You stole his sign.
Speaker 5: He has it back.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah because I got it from you.
Speaker 5: I moved it 50 yards.
Speaker 4: I don’t care if you moved it one foot. You don’t have the right to take someone’s property, okay? Period.
Trent Horn: I have seen this on campus all the time, that when someone restricts my ability to speak or has tried to commit crimes or property crimes against me, they say, “Well I didn’t do anything. I’m not doing anything. I’m not doing anything.” So this girl is saying, “I just moved it 50 yards.” Imagine if I went to Best Buy and I walked out with a laptop, and the police officer got me in the parking lot and I said, “I just moved it. I moved it like 50 yards. What’s the big deal?”
Trent Horn: Uh, you’re stealing it. You took it. It’s yours. It’s just she is dumbfounded because on university campuses, young people are treated really like children. They’re treating like children thinking that you can play like at recess, and you can take things from others, and it doesn’t really matter because you’re just little kids going to college for the experience. You pay $30,000.00 a year to eat in the Memorial Union and climb the campus rock wall, and go to classes 95% of which the material learn you will forget upon graduation. Don’t go to school, kids.
Trent Horn: No, go to school. Go to a trade school. Go to a school where you have a path to learn something useful in life to be able to help others. So, she’s just flummoxed at this idea that she’s done anything wrong, that she should be held responsible for her actions.
Speaker 4: I don’t care what the circumstance is. You don’t have the right to take anyone’s property. He was holding it, therefore it was his. And you took it. Okay? I know you may not agree with what’s being said, but you don’t have the right to take someone’s property. Period. Okay?
Speaker 4: [inaudible 00:12:48].
Speaker 5: Look sir, I’m not trying to get arrested. I just don’t agree with [crosstalk 00:12:58].
Speaker 4: Do you have [inaudible 00:12:58] on you?
Speaker 5: No. Am I being arrested right now?
Speaker 4: [inaudible 00:13:04].
Trent Horn: Okay, so now the cop is detaining her saying, “You can’t-” I love to see explanation. That’s what you would tell a toddler. You can’t take things from people that you disagree with. You can’t do that. This the bedrock of living in a civil society. I want to go ahead here… I’m going to go past the foul language. She’s mad at the idea that he is protecting them, the Pro-Life advocates.
Speaker 5: I cannot believe y’all let this happen.
Trent Horn: She’s like, “I can’t y’all let them do this.” On campuses today, it’s so funny. Young people, more than ever, reject the concept of free speech. Why would you let these people say these things that are hurtful? It’s because young people today are instilled with the idea they have a right to not be offended. That’s what I said in the post on social media about this, you have a right to not be offended. There’s a great interview with Jordan Peterson, and the interview’s got like 10 million views, where a Canadian broadcaster is saying to him, “Why don’t you just call transgender individuals by the pronouns they want?
Trent Horn: He says, “Well, I shouldn’t be forced to do that.” She says, “Well that offends them.” He says, “So what?” The Canadian reporter is just flummoxed saying, “Well don’t they have a right to not be offended?” She said something equivalent to that, and Peterson says, “No, of course not. What you say is offending me, but I’m letting you say it.” The reporter says, “I can’t really respond to that.” Then finally the officer hands down the verdict to the young woman.
Speaker 4: [inaudible 00:14:49]
Speaker 5: What?
Speaker 4: You’re under arrest for [inaudible 00:14:54].
Speaker 5: All I did was I just walked over here. I was going to give it back to him.
Speaker 4: Okay, well I don’t know that ma’am. I didn’t know that. I came over here and then you rested against the sign. So listen, [inaudible 00:15:06]. Take your backpack off, and I’m going to have you put your hands behind your back.
Speaker 5: I cannot believe this is happening.
Speaker 4: Right now I’m asking you [inaudible 00:15:15].
Speaker 5: Is there something else that I can do?
Speaker 4: No, I just told you you’re under arrest. I cannot un-arrest you. [inaudible 00:15:21].
Trent Horn: So then she’s arrested. But the look on her face. Watch the video. She is flabbergasted at the idea she’s being placed under arrest. She’s saying, “Well I didn’t do anything,” so I know I’ve gone on a little bit with this video. It strikes a chord for me because I used to be on campus all the time, and people would do this stuff. This police officer ought to be commended, this campus officer. He had to commended. He handled the situation with professionalism and he did the right thing. I’ve been on campus where officers could not care. Don’t even care.
Trent Horn: I was at the University of California in Santa Barbara showing our Justice for All exhibit, and there were tons of protesters. One guy jumped over the barrier we erected to protect our exhibit. He jumped over it, he went up to the exhibit, took out a lighter and tried to set the exhibit on fire. There was a police officer 15 feet away. I said, “Aren’t you going to do something about this?” He says, “Well, he’s expressing himself.” He’s expressing himself? He was trying to set our exhibit on fire. Now, it was heavy duty polyurethane. He wasn’t going to be able to light it, I don’t think. But there was a guy here trying to light something on fire, and here is the police officer thinking, “I hate these Pro-Life whackos. Who cares? I don’t have to help them.”
Trent Horn: So, I really do commend this police officer, especially if he’s not Pro-Life, but he understands the importance of the rule of law. But yes, I have been on campuses where Pro-Choice advocates have threatened to cut off my genitalia, have tried to burn down our exhibit, have threatened bodily harm to us. I’ve seen people pushed and shove, and engage in bodily harm against others. But that is a risk that I am willing to take, that others are willing to take, in order to share the truth with others. Hopefully though, when you talk to your friends and family about these recent things in the news about abortion, I don’t think you’ll be in as rough of a situation.
Trent Horn: What I want to share with you are some questions I think are helpful in conversations you have, especially on the Heartbeat Bill, the Alabama bill. Don’t worry, especially on social media, these questions are really helpful on social media. If you follow me on social media, Twitter or Facebook, you’ll see when I get critics I usually respond to them with just a question, not a long paragraph of text. [inaudible 00:17:36] conversations, questions move people more. Here’s my favorite questions to ask Pro-Choice advocates:
Trent Horn: 1. What is abortion?
Trent Horn: It sounds simple, right? Well, what is abortion? What do you mean by abortion? Father Frank [Pravone 00:17:49] likes to ask this too, “Is this what you mean by abortion?” Then you ask them to define it, and they say, “Well it’s the ending of a pregnancy.” Then you can do the follow up, what does it mean to be pregnant? Because you want them to say, “Look, abortion is the ending of the life of a human being in a mother’s womb.” Should that be legal? The word abortion obfuscates the issue. It clouds the issue.
Trent Horn: We want to talk graphically what’s really happening here. So, what does it mean to be pregnant though? What’s the difference between a pregnant woman and a not pregnant woman? A pregnant woman has a baby inside of her at some stage of gestation. Some people say, “Well a pregnant woman has a fetus or an embryo, or a potential life.” Well, we’re getting closer to the tracks here. Just keep following up. Well, what is a fetus? What is an embryo? What is… And I was actually having a debate earlier on Twitter with someone who said that I engage in word play. So, we kind of went back and forth a little bit.
Trent Horn: I said, “No, it’s not word play. I have to know. Is the human fetus a human being, or is it a person?” He was more concerned about personhood. When someone says the unborn is not a human being, or not a person, what you want to do in these situations is don’t feel compelled to have to prove an unborn child is human, or to prove they’re a person. If this person is confident that the unborn are not persons, or not human beings, ask them, “Okay, well define that for me. What is a human being? What is a person? What do those terms mean?” Because you have to know what they mean to know a fetus is not a person.
Trent Horn: For example, if I can say that I know a fetus is not a reptile, because reptiles belong to a certain animal species that are coldblooded and lay eggs. I’m trying to remember everything I saw in that one Magic School Bus episode I watched with Matthew where they go to the Herpetologist Institute. I like geometric shapes as an example. If I say, “That table does not have a quadrilateral side… The shape of the top of that table is not a quadrilateral.” Well, I’d have to know what a quadrilateral is, because if the shape is a rectangle then I don’t know what I’m talking about. Quadrilateral literally means four-sided. It could be a square, a rectangle, or the sexy rhombus. The rhombus.
Trent Horn: I always imagined if you did a cartoon about geometric shapes, the rhombus would be the one doing the tango. The rhombus. When it comes to abortion and the unborn, it’s the same thing. If somebody says the unborn is not a human being, they have to know what a human being is. If they say, “Well it’s not a human being. It’s a fetus,” that’s like saying that tabletop is not a quadrilateral, it’s a rectangle. A rectangle is a type of quadrilateral. A fetus is a type of human being. So, you ask them to define the terms, and that reveals they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Trent Horn: Just say, “Well look, what is a human?” And you have to know what a human being is. You have to have a definition of human being so that you can know if this disputed individual, this human fetus, unborn child, is or is not a human being. Just ask them, “Well define it.” When they define it, press them that if the definition is made up just to exclude the unborn, well a human being is anybody who’s born. Dogs and cats are born every day. Are they human beings? No, it’s any human that’s born. “Well what do you mean by that?” Okay, so it’s any human that’s born… Sorry, I wanted to bring up… That just reminded me of something.
Trent Horn: When I was at the Niagara Region Right to Life conference, there was a young woman there, Laura-
Laura Klassen: Human rights.
Trent Horn: Oh, sorry about that. That’s her. I cannot remember… I feel bad for her. I really enjoyed meeting her. She’s a great speaker. Laura Green, I think. It’s from the YouTube page, Choice 42. Let’s see, what is… Laura Klassen. That’s it, Laura Klassen, Choice 42. She gave a great presentation at the Niagara Region Right to Life conference. She shared parody videos that she’s made. When you get people to say, “Well, it’s not human. It’s a fetus,” what does that matter? People say, “Well it’s not human until it’s born.” A human, people say, “A human being is any human whose born.” Ask them, why does birth matter? Tell me, what is it about birth that makes a fetus turn into a human being?
Trent Horn: Otherwise, it sounds like you’re just talking about magic. So, Klassen has this great video. You can look online. Search The Magical Birth Canal, is the video. Here, I’ll play the audio. The video itself is hilarious to see, but it still works just as well with the audio. This is The Magical Birth Canal on the Choice 42 YouTube channel.
Laura Klassen: You may think you’ve always had yours, but you would be wrong. Human rights-
Trent Horn: Okay, so he starts off human rights, here we go.
Laura Klassen: Human rights, you may think you’ve always had yours, but you would be wrong. How did you get your human rights? From The Magical Birth Canal, of course. Disclaimer, birth canal is not the size of an actual birth canal.
Trent Horn: So right now, she’s holding up a piece of pipe that’s cut to see the inside. It’s painted and has glitter. She’s holding up a three foot piece of pipe that’s painted glittery and pink on the inside. It’s just silly, a pipe cut open to show, “Hey, here’s The Magical Birth Canal.”
Laura Klassen: I’m just saying, before the baby, or a fetus is born, it is not a human being clearly. But-
Trent Horn: Right now she’s holding a three month old baby.
Laura Klassen: As it passes through the birth canal, something amazing happens that transforms it into a person. Its human rights. Observe. Not a person. Not a person. Not a person. Coming out the other end, a person. Human rights. Congratulations, you now have value. I can’t say the same for this one. So what exactly happens in the birth canal that causes this magical transformation? No one knows. But, popular scientific theories include fairies, aliens. So of course, a mini Big Bang. I think it’s fairies.
Trent Horn: That’s a great video, actually, to be able to show others. But press them on that. When someone says… Remember, don’t make them defend the indefensible. They say, “Well a fetus isn’t a human until it’s born.” Why? Why should I believe that. Other people will say, “Well you got to be conscious to be human.” Okay, well you mean aware of things? So then I ask, “Which is worse to kill, a rat or a newborn infant?” Don’t pick dogs or cats, or cows, or pigs because are terrible nowadays. A lot of them love dogs and cats more than humans. Pick a very unlovable animal. Rats and pigeons. Pigeons are just flying rats. These are examples that I use.
Trent Horn: “If we agree that if consciousness makes you valuable, and a rat and a newborn baby have the same level of consciousness-” I mean rats can run mazes. They’re conscious of the world around them, but they’re not persons. Even many diehard animal activists don’t treat rats like full fledged persons. That shows that your value comes not from what you do, but from what you are. Let’s go to the next questions while I still have few minutes here with you. When people say, “Well I still have the right to control my own body.” I like to ask, “Does the fetus have a right to control her own body?”
Trent Horn: If we say a female coma patient in a hospital, her body is violated if someone rapes her even though she’s not aware, we would say she has a right to her own body even if she’s not alert and aware. The same is true for the unborn, that if you can see the unborn as a human being, but you think a woman has the right to control her body, doesn’t the fetus have a right to her own body, to its safety and integrity? Well what about back alley abortions? People say abortion needs to be legal because otherwise women are going to die in back alley abortions.
Trent Horn: Don’t get lost in arguing about statistics. Now, the statistics are on our side, that deaths from illegal abortion were vastly exaggerated in order to make abortion legal in the 1970s. But, get to the moral issue. When this is brought up, I like to ask this question. I remember it angered this guy at UC Berkeley when I was debating Malcolm Potts. I asked the question in the debate, “Should killing be legal so that it’s safer for bigger people to kill smaller people?” That’s it. Should killing be legal so that it’s safer for bigger people to kill smaller people? Because that’s what you’re saying.
Trent Horn: When people say, “Well abortion should be safe, right? Don’t you Pro-Lifer want it to at least be safe?” Sure, if it’s as safe for the mother as it is for the child. But you could ask, “Should it be legal so it’s safer for big people to kill smaller people,” and at Berkeley the guy said, “If you said it’s safer for big people to kill small people, I’m going to-” I said, “You’re going to what?” Who knows? Then they come up there, and who knows what they’re going to do. I’m just tired. You got these bullies who say they can treat the unborn however they want. They treat other people however they want. Okay, why don’t you tell me about that?
Trent Horn: You’ve got Representative Brian Sims, who is a bully. I’d love to see him come on the podcast, and he can have a fair fight with somebody on the issue of abortion. He won’t, because he’s retreated now back into his little tower, his little liberal district in Philadelphia that elected him, and probably doesn’t want all the attention he gets. But he goes and he bullies a bunch of teenagers at an abortion facility who were peacefully praying. Let’s see him come to some of us guys, and we’ll have a fair, civil but vigorous conversation face to face with him.
Trent Horn: They’re not going to do it because most Pro-Choice advocates, they’ll raise a stink on campus, or they’ll get in your face at an abortion facility, but most professional Pro-Choice advocates will not engage in a formal debate. I have tried. I have had so many people say, “Hey, we’re going to do an abortion debate,” and they reach out to Planned Parenthood, they reach out to Pro-Choice activists, won’t debate either my colleagues or me because they know they’re going to lose. It’s a wise policy to not get into a fight you know you’re going to lose.
Trent Horn: Here’s the last one. So I’ve got eight. Well, no I’ll do nine because this will come up. People, don’t let them bog you down also when they talk about the Alabama and Georgia laws about punishing women who have abortions. The laws I believe only punish those who perform the abortion, which would be the abortion providers. You can say, “Look, when it comes to punishment for abortion-” just go back to this question. Say, “Look, I want an honest answer. Should we punish parents who kill their own children?” That’s all I want to know, yes or now, should we punish parents who kill their own children?
Trent Horn: There was that mom a few weeks ago. She threw her baby in the car seat to the bottom of a gorge. The baby was luckily found alive. People are outraged by that. Look, I am sorry but you have to hold parents accountable for the harms they cause to their children. Now, some people are mentally ill, they’re disturbed. So they may not be as culpable for the crimes they commit, whether it’s a crime against a born child or an unborn child. But if unborn children are human beings, you have to hold those who are responsible for ending their lives accountable especially if you live hopefully in a society in the future where abortion is illegal, because basically everyone agrees, or almost everyone agrees, that it’s wrong.
Trent Horn: People say, “Why don’t you change hearts instead of the law?” The problem is, the law teaches peoples… Martin Luther King, Jr. said… People said to him, “Why do you want to change the laws? Just change hearts.” He said that the law can change hearts. The law is a teacher, and the law restrains the heartless. It’s important to change hearts and change laws in tandem because law is a teacher. The last one, people will bring up the question of “What about rape?” Matt Walsh actually has a good article about this that you can check out Daily Wire.
Trent Horn: Here’s just one question you could ask in response to the question, “What about abortion in the case of rape?” I would ask this, “Which of these three should we kill, if any: the raped woman, the rapist, the child conceived in rape?” Essentially for many people, even people who are Pro-Choice usually oppose the death penalty. They wouldn’t even allow the killing of the rapist. You could say, “Well you’ve picked two people here we wouldn’t kill, the raped woman or the rapist. What about the other innocent party?” The key here is to always show concern for the woman who’s been raped, as she has experienced a tremendous evil and an injustice. But, abortion does not make her un-raped. What it does, it makes her an accomplice to even more injustice. That’s not a trauma that we should add onto the trauma that has already been inflicted upon her.
Trent Horn: Of course, if you want more tips on how to engage people on this issue, definitely check out my book, Persuasive Pro-Life, or the videos of me talking to Pro-Choice callers on Catholic Answers Live on the Why Are You Pro-Choice shows. I’ll say a prayer for you all after the show. I hope you have good conversations with people, and can show a reasonable and gracious witness of the Pro-Life view. And, don’t forget check out TrentHornPodcast.com. You can always subscribe to get access to the bonus content, and a little nice thank you video from me.
Trent Horn: You guys have been great. I hope you have a very blessed day.
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