In this episode Trent puts what he taught in yesterday’s episode into practice and models how you can defend the faith even if you’re only allowed to ask questions.
Welcome to the Council of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Council of Trent podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers’ apologist and speaker Trent Horn. This is kind of a part two episode. In part one, I shared a talk I gave at the Franciscan University of Steubenville last summer at there, defending the faith conference on the easiest way to defend your faith. You don’t need an encyclopedia of Catholic knowledge. If you just learn how to ask questions, listen, and find common ground, you can have great conversations. In part two, and this is something I do in a lot of different places, and it’s always is fun because it’s always different, I want to show people, you can do this. So I’ll play a game where I’ll ask the audience members to role play and present objections to the Catholic faith to me. And I don’t know what they’re going to say.
Trent Horn:
They’re not plants. It’s just random audience members and I’ve done this at different conferences around the country. I ask them to give me a random objection. And my goal is to try to get as far as I can in the conversation by only asking questions. I kind of tie my hands behind my back and I only ask questions and that’s to demonstrate you can have great conversations, even if you don’t have a lot of knowledge about a subject. You can ask questions to help another person see their position that is critical to Catholic faith has problems with it. So that’s I want to share with you all today. I think you’ll all find it to be a lot of fun.
Trent Horn:
If you would like me to give a similar presentation at a conference in your area, maybe they put on a conference and bring in speakers and you think this would be a fun talk to have at an event like that, definitely go to TrentHorn.com, fill out the contact page there, and you can submit event request to me there. But yeah, without further ado here is my Socratic experiment at the Franciscan University of Steubenville.
Trent Horn:
Who would like to try to voice an objection? And it could be maybe one you’ve heard from a friend or family member. Let’s see. I think we have some individuals here in the back and we’ll try to go through a few .and I will ask each of you, what do you think about… And we’re going to role play. You’re going to take on that role. Feel free to stand up, go ahead and stand up. And so, yeah sir, what do you think about Catholicism?
Volunteer:
I want to know why the Catholic church is always focused on abortion and not immigration in the environment. That’s what turns me off.
Trent Horn:
Okay. What makes you think… What makes you think that Catholic… So you’re saying you feel like the Catholic church focuses too much on the issue of abortion and not on things like immigration?
Volunteer:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
Okay. Do you think every issue deserves equal attention?
Volunteer:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
Every issue?
Volunteer:
You’re dealing with human life and you’re dealing with our world. So yes, I think these are issues of equal weight.
Trent Horn:
What do you think is the wrongness of abortion? Do you think abortion is a moral wrong?
Volunteer:
The woman’s right to choose.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So that’s interesting. So your concern is not so much inconsistency. Would you rather have the Catholic church deal with immigration and not with abortion?
Volunteer:
No. You just deal with them in an equal way. You seem to put more emphasis on one on than on the other.
Trent Horn:
Do you think the church should try to help make abortion illegal?
Volunteer:
Tolerated.
Trent Horn:
Excuse me.
Volunteer:
Tolerated.
Trent Horn:
Okay. Can I ask you another question? What is abortion?
Volunteer:
The woman’s right to choose.
Trent Horn:
The right to choose what exactly?
Volunteer:
Well, if the church looks at its conception, but this early beginning of maybe a child, I don’t think they have the right to tell me what to do with it.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So the right to choose to do maybe a child. What thing are you talking about? Are you talking about a pregnancy?
Volunteer:
Well, that’s what be the start of it, yeah.
Trent Horn:
What’s the difference between someone who’s pregnant and not pregnant?
Volunteer:
Well, it depends on how far along they are.
Trent Horn:
Right. What does it mean to be pregnant?
Volunteer:
Well, there’s some indication that there’s a beginning of life.
Trent Horn:
What kind of life?
Volunteer:
Oh, hopefully human.
Trent Horn:
Have you ever heard of someone being pregnant with life that’s not human, like a dog or a cat?
Volunteer:
You look what’s happening in China. It’s a possibility.
Trent Horn:
All right. Why don’t we… We’ll put a time out right there. Thank you, sir. Let’s find our next volunteer that led me. But what is some things that you noticed? Even our… And I was appreciative for our volunteer showing an appropriate level of feistiness, if you will. But notice in my response, I did not try to make a lot of declarative judgements back.
Trent Horn:
I sought to really understand him, where he’s coming from and notice in asking questions, I helped to understand his position. I could have misunderstood, because I could have thought he was against abortion morally, but he feels politically things should be treated equally. But in finding out he thinks abortion is not a moral wrong, I move the issue and the dialogue to what’s more pressing to talk about, not the prudential judgment over where the Bishop should allocate their resources, but is abortion right or wrong. That’s the more important conversation and the more fruitful one to have. So when you have conversations, it’s better to move away from areas of politics or judgements of prudence to what’s true about our faith and the main, big moral issues. All right, let’s try our next one.
Volunteer 2:
I don’t believe that the Catholic church is true because Catholics worship Mary and I believe we’re called to worship one God alone. Nobody else.
Trent Horn:
Why do you think… What makes you say Catholics worship Mary?
Volunteer 2:
They’re bowing down to her all the time and putting things in front of statues of her and treating her like she is more important than Jesus.
Trent Horn:
What makes you think… Well, do you see Catholics bowing down before statues of Jesus? It seems like they treat Jesus as pretty important too.
Volunteer 2:
Well, I don’t think they should be treating them the same. Jesus needs to be more important.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So it’s not that Mary’s more important. It’s that Mary and Jesus shouldn’t be given the same worship.
Volunteer 2:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So what do you mean when you say worship? Like what is worship?
Volunteer 2:
Worship is giving the highest possible honor, like that you would give to your God.
Trent Horn:
Okay. Well as a Catholic, what’s the highest, most important thing a Catholic could offer God or anyone?
Volunteer 2:
Their lives.
Trent Horn:
What do you think the purpose of the mass is for? Do you know what happens at a Catholic mass?
Volunteer 2:
Not too familiar.
Trent Horn:
Okay. Have you heard about the sacrifice of Jesus being offered to the Father that the mass is for Jesus?
Volunteer 2:
I think so.
Trent Horn:
Okay. I feel bad here. I’m starting to stray away from just my asking of questions to give a theological explanation, which can be helpful. Let me see if I can try just a few more questions here. Do you… What kind of… Let me ask you this. What kind of respect do you think the Virgin Mary should… Do you think the Virgin Mary should be respected?
Volunteer 2:
Well, yes.
Trent Horn:
Okay. Do you think the Virgin Mary should get more respect than just other people?
Volunteer 2:
Well, I don’t know. I think she was human like the rest of us.
Trent Horn:
Do you think she played an important role in salvation history?
Volunteer 2:
I mean, I suppose.
Trent Horn:
Why would you say that
Volunteer 2:
She was the mother of Jesus.
Trent Horn:
Is Jesus God?
Volunteer 2:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
So if Jesus is God, would it be fair we can call Mary the mother of God?
Volunteer 2:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Do you think that the mother of God would deserve… We shouldn’t worship… We shouldn’t put the mother of God above God, but it sounds like we agree she should get a decent amount of respect or veneration.
Volunteer 2:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So I think we agree. We should venerate, have respect for the mother of God, but not treat the mother of God as if she were equal to the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Is that what you’re saying?
Volunteer 2:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
Okay. But it sounded like you were concerned about things like statues or bowing before someone.
Volunteer 2:
It just seems like there are some Catholics out there that go beyond venerating Mary. It seems like they’re worshiping her like they worship God.
Trent Horn:
Do you think we should judge a religion based on its best teachings or its aberrant practices?
Volunteer 2:
I would… The best teachings.
Trent Horn:
Okay. And then, well, why don’t we put a time out right there. Thank you so much for that, for your addition to that. All right. We’ll try some more. See, this is fun. Giving talks can always get kind of old. You feel like an audio animatronic. Having these live discussions like this, I think is very fruitful. But notice there also, when I ask people questions, I try very hard to find common ground with the person and also to shift the disagreement.
Trent Horn:
So notice… And what was your name? Kimberly. So notice Kimberly started with Catholics worship Mary more than Jesus. And I said, well… And then in our discussion, she conceded, well, maybe not more but equal and I don’t like that. Okay. But should we give Mary some veneration? And so there part of this, when we ask questions and give examples, sometimes our best goal in a conversation is to make something intelligible.
Trent Horn:
We may not fully convince a person, but they might say, “Okay, that makes more sense to me.” And to clear up misconceptions. And of course I got some hands tied behind my back. I would give some theological explanations here, but notice that any of you could ask questions like that, right? There’s nothing I ask that’s beyond what anyone would save to understand well, why do you think we do what we do? Let’s try another one here. Let’s see. Who do we… How many mics are floating right back here? Okay. Here we go.
Volunteer 3:
Hello.
Trent Horn:
Hi.
Volunteer 3:
So I don’t understand why the Catholic church isn’t allowing gay and lesbians to be part or the church or why they think it’s wrong. Love is a good thing. So why can’t they just love who they want?
Trent Horn:
Okay. Let me ask you a few questions. And first my name’s Trent, what is your name?
Volunteer 3:
Jamy.
Trent Horn:
Jalene.
Volunteer 3:
Jamy, like put on your jammies.
Trent Horn:
Jammies, I love it. Jamy, let me ask you a question. You said the Catholic church doesn’t let gays or lesbians be a part of it. What do you mean? Like the Catholic church says like they can’t even enter the building. What do you mean by that?
Volunteer 3:
Yeah, they don’t really let them take part in communion and they just say that they can’t live the life that they want to live.
Trent Horn:
When you say they can’t live the life they want to live, is there a… Are you talking about like the church is saying there’s a specific behavior? Like what part of their lives of the church saying that they can’t do?
Volunteer 3:
Well, they can’t get married. They can’t love the people like the man or the woman that they love. If they feel like a man or a woman, they can’t dress like that person.
Trent Horn:
Well, when you say they can’t love that person, I’m not… Where does the church say like can’t bring them their medicine if they’re sick? Or does the church say like they can’t help them if they’re in a really difficult financial spot? Does the church say they can’t love them in that way?
Volunteer 3:
No, but like one way to express love is through sexual union and the church says that they can’t do that.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So what you’re saying is it’s not that the church is saying they can’t love each other, but you’re saying that the church has said that two men or two women can’t engage in sexual behavior with each other and you think they should be able to do that. And that’s kind of the beef you have with the church. Am I getting that right?
Volunteer 3:
Yeah. I mean, what are they doing wrong? It’s the privacy of their bedroom and they’re not hurting anybody. They’re just loving each other.
Trent Horn:
Well, can I ask you a question? What is sex for?
Volunteer 3:
Pleasure.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So do you think sex is totally normal as long as it’s consensual and for pleasure, it’s fine.
Volunteer 3:
Yeah. I mean, it’s just a way to express how much you care for someone and seek pleasure.
Trent Horn:
Well, can I ask you a question? Would you have any problems with, let’s say, two family members expressing love for each other in that way, or like an adult and a child? Like, do you think that sometimes sex, if it’s just for pleasure, it seems like there’s sexual behaviors that are pleasurable for people, but we agree that they’re wrong, right?
Volunteer 3:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So, and you’re saying it’s only for pleasure.
Volunteer 3:
Well, I mean, it’s just, I don’t understand why they can’t. Like, they’re just saying I love you in a physical form.
Trent Horn:
Sure. Is there a limit to how many people-
Volunteer 3:
And it’s consensual?
Trent Horn:
Sure. Could I ask you a question? Can we love lots of people?
Volunteer 3:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
Sure. Okay. Let’s say a married couple, the husband wants to show his secretary how much he loves and appreciates her. Would it be wrong to have sex with her?
Volunteer 3:
Yes, it would be wrong.
Trent Horn:
Well, but if sex is just for pleasure, I guess what I’m trying to figure out is, what’s the big deal? What’s the big deal?
Volunteer 3:
I don’t get what you’re saying.
Trent Horn:
Well, why is it wrong? If if he’s just doing something pleasurable, why should his wife care? Well, I don’t mean to box in. What I’m saying is, it seems like sex is for something more than pleasure to me. And so if it’s for something else, if we misuse it, like, I think… Would you and I agree, misusing sex can be a really bad thing?
Volunteer 3:
Yeah, absolutely.
Trent Horn:
So in order to know how it’s being misused, do we have to figure out how to use it the right way?
Volunteer 3:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So what I’m trying to listen to your understanding of what sex is for, it sounds like the use under your view would lead to a lot of misuse. I think sex is for something more than that. So why don’t we do a timeout right there? So thank you, Jamy, very much. Give her a hand everyone. That was helpful.
Trent Horn:
So notice a few things in that conversation. It’s also very helpful when you ask people questions and you’re having a dialogue to strip away the euphemisms, as much as you can, because what was the very first objection that Jamy made? Anyone? They can’t love each other. The church says these people can’t love each other. And sometimes we kind of let that stand or we use that language, but that’s not true.
Trent Horn:
And so, people will say in the other example earlier, women should have a choice. I don’t think women should have that choice. Well, I mean a choice for what? It’s very helpful and notice in a reserved help me kind of way I’m saying, okay, well you’re talking, I think not about love general, but you’re talking about something very specific. Then when we talk about something specific, I try to get to something I call a key question.
Trent Horn:
So in that case, we’re talking about sexual morality. I’m asking her if someone says a certain behavior is right or wrong and they disagree with the church, sometimes instead of saying, here’s why the church is right on this, I might ask them, well, wait a minute. Let’s look at your world view, your sexual ethics. How do you know what’s right and wrong with sexuality? And if you can’t coherently say that what is normally understood to be right or wrong with sexual morality, and I feel like your sexual ethics is very shaky. Maybe something you shouldn’t trust. Maybe mine makes more sense of the world. Bad news before good news. Let’s try one last one. Yes. Right over here.
Volunteer 4:
Well, I’ve got a bunch of Catholic friends that are saying that churches just not got enough priests. So I don’t understand why priests can’t get married. If that seems to be what other Protestant religions do, have married ministers. I mean, and yet they seem to also talk out of both sides of their mouth since there are married priests in the Catholic church.
Trent Horn:
Okay. Let me ask you a question. I’m Trent, by the way, what’s your name?
Volunteer 4:
Mark.
Trent Horn:
Mark. So Mark, you have Catholic friends, but you’re not Catholic.
Volunteer 4:
No, I’m Catholic too.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So you’re just wondering about the teaching on celibacy.
Volunteer 4:
I’m wondering why priests can’t get married when there are married priests in the church.
Trent Horn:
Why do you think they can’t get married?
Volunteer 4:
I don’t know.
Trent Horn:
Do you think there might be some benefits if priests in the church do not… Do you see some benefits of priests not being married?
Volunteer 4:
Oh sure.
Trent Horn:
Like what?
Volunteer 4:
Well, they don’t have to answer to two masters.
Trent Horn:
First Corinthians chapter seven, first Corinthians seven. The unmarried man is anxious. The unmarried man is anxious to please the Lord, the married man is anxious to please his wife, but then, I digress there. Okay. So you see there could be some benefits, but do you think the benefits don’t outweigh what you think are the cons?
Volunteer 4:
Well, I guess I look at it more simply and say, why are there married priests in the Catholics church? And then why does the church say priests can’t get married?
Trent Horn:
Do you think priests should be like Jesus?
Volunteer 4:
Sure.
Trent Horn:
Did Jesus ever have a human wife?
Volunteer 4:
Not that we know of.
Trent Horn:
So it sounds like if priests don’t get… So Jesus just spends his whole life serving the body, right?
Volunteer 4:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
So if a priest were to not get married and spend his life serving the body, it seems like he’d be acting a lot like Jesus, right?
Volunteer 4:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
So maybe it’s a good thing to have priests act like Jesus in that way, what-
Volunteer 4:
Well, I think that’s true, but that wasn’t really my question. My question then is, but there are priests that are married. Aren’t they also serving the body?
Trent Horn:
Sure. And then we’ll put a time out right there. That’s actually correct. And so here, this would… Now notice we’ve clarified the conversation. If Mark had said that he was Protestant, I might have asked him if the church changed its teaching on celibacy, would you become Catholic? And then if he said, yeah, that’d be an interesting conversation. But in many cases, they’d probably say no. That’s also helpful when you have these conversations. When you ask someone… If someone says, “I’m mad about X, I disagree with X,” sometimes it’s helpful in a conversation to say, “If the church changed its teaching on X, would you become Catholic?” Nine times out of 10, they’ll say no. And for example, women priests is a great one. If the church allow women priests, would you have any problem with Catholicism? Well, would you agree with every other single teaching of the Catholic faith if women priests were ordained?
Trent Horn:
No, because then there’s contraception, abortion, homosexuality. Sometimes it’s helpful when we have these discussions and someone raises an objection, we can say, “Okay.” Sometimes I offer that as a test. If they changed X, would you be totally on board with everything the church teaches? A lot of times by asking that way, it’s helpful to get away from the side issues and get to the main issues, which is authority. Who is the ultimate authority? Is it God? Is it the church he established? Or is it you? And that’s something we always have to ask ourselves too, to be able to humbly serve, are we the ultimate authority or are we going to allow God to be that and to operate in that way through the church that he established.
Trent Horn:
So I’m very grateful that you all are here. If you would like to learn more about this method, I haven’t written a book on this one yet. There’s a book called Tactics by Greg Koukl. He’s a Protestant author, but a lot of the skills in there might be very helpful. The method that I’ve been describing here, you can also go to catholic.com and listen to our Catholic Answers live radio shows. If you listen to me on there, engaging with Protestants and atheists, you’ll see the method in action. And you’ll kind of see how I engage.
Trent Horn:
Although I often include theological explanations, but I try to make about 70% of my replies questions to find out what people think, why they think that, where we can agree and how we can shrink the disagreement. So very grateful that you all are here. And I hope you all enjoy the rest of your time here at the conference.
Trent Horn:
Hey guys, thank you so much for watching and be sure to click on the link below. If you want to attend this conference, I’ll be speaking at Defending the Faith again next summer, next July. So if you want to attend it, be sure to go and check it out. It’s a ton of fun. It’s a great place. Scott Han is a speaker there, Patrick Madrid. It’s awesome. I have a lot of fun being there. And if I’m speaking there and you stop by, I would love to say hi and meet you. So hey, thank you guys so much. And I hope you have a very blessed day.
If you like today’s episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com.