Audio only:
In this episode Trent reviews a new documentary on Fr. James Martin and shows where Fr. Martin subtly reveals how he undermines Church teaching.
Welcome to the Council of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic answers.
Trent Horn:
Hey everyone, welcome to the Council of Trent podcast. I’m your host Catholic answers’ apologist and speaker Trent Horn. And today I want to share with you my review of a recent documentary about Father James Martin. The documentary is called Building a Bridge. That’s the same title as the book he put out a few years ago, that was re-released as a second edition. And the documentary is what I thought it would be. It’s basically a puff piece designed to build up Father Martin. It’s not so much a documentary it really borders more on propaganda. It really paints Father Martin with kind of a one dimensional portrait as just this really kind person who is just trying to tell people Catholics to be kind to people who identify as LGBT, and for some reason, there’s all these Catholics who are mad at him on the internet.
Trent Horn:
That’s basically the documentary. I think it’s about an hour and 40 minutes long. It could have been a lot shorter. So in that respect, there were many things about the documentary that I thought it would be the case and so I wasn’t really surprised, but there were other parts of it that I was genuinely surprised by. Other parts that made me go, “Oh, wow, that’s really interesting.” Though honestly, the most interesting parts of this documentary are the parts that don’t actually focus on Father James Martin, so that’s kind of ironic in a documentary like that. So what I want to do is I’m going to give just kind of a general overview, my review of the documentary itself, some of the issues that it raises, and then I want to share with you a few clips from the documentary that really stood out to me. So let’s just jump right into it.
Trent Horn:
My overall takeaway from it is that it’s really boring. The first 30 minutes of it, I was engaged. It opens on the roof of the religious community where Father Martin lives in Manhattan, and he tends his garden and it sets the stage for the rest of the film where he’s growing these plants, and he’s saying, “Oh, I’m worried about the freeze, but they’re going to”… It reminded me of Jurassic Park, “Life finds a way.” His views on doctrine and practice. “Maybe they have to be buried really deep in the soil, but a spring is coming for the church and it’s going to sprout out.” I mean they really just beat you over the head with the metaphors of what they’re saying here. But as the documentary progresses, it kind of falls into a predictable pattern. Father Martin goes to give a talk somewhere and everybody there loves the talk and talks about how much they love Father Martin.
Trent Horn:
And then there’s people who protest outside, who don’t like it. And then Father Martin goes to an office and people there talk about how much they love him, and then they say, “Oh, look at these people who said mean things about Father Martin on the internet.” And here’s Father Martin going to receive an award and people talk about how much they love him, and there are people protesting outside and why, he’s so nice. That’s basically the documentary so it’s really boring, in that regard when it just kind of cycles through this, it’s not interesting. And also one reason that it’s not interesting is the documentary hardly spend… As much as it spends a lot of time on Father James Martin, it actually doesn’t really dive into the more controversial things that he has said and done. The areas where he doesn’t directly contradict church teaching, but he undermines church teaching.
Trent Horn:
When he says, “That people who engage in same sex relationships or marriages, why shouldn’t they be able to teach in Catholic schools?” In my… If you want the full story on Father Martin, by the way, click on the link below in the description. I have another video on my channel called The Slippery Tactics of Father James Martin, where there, I highlight some of the things that he has said. He said, “Oh, maybe for a teaching to be authoritative, it has to be received, and LGBT people haven’t received the teaching on homosexuality, or they reject it so therefore it’s not authoritative for them. But he always floats it as maybe it’s this, maybe it’s that, he doesn’t commit. At one time, he said in a Q & A, “He hoped in the future that a same sex, couple could kiss one another at the sign of peace at mass.”
Trent Horn:
So the documentary never goes into these controversial things that Father Martin has said, and that he has done, or the ambiguous things that he says and that he promotes. And so when it portrays those who are critical of Father Martin, they look unhinged because the only things they show is Father Martin saying, “Wow, we should be really sad when people who… When gay Catholics,” as he would use the term “Or LBGT Catholics are killed in tragedies, like the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando, Florida.” And we should be sad about that. We should be sad of anybody who dies from an act of violence. That’s an interesting one that was brought up early in the film, because that tragedy is what motivated Father Martin, I think to write Building a Bridge and to get involved in more of this. But people condemn that, but you can condemn the violence there without lionizing, what people were doing at a gay night club.
Trent Horn:
There are swingers clubs. There are clubs for married adults to go and have sex with other married adults. If there was a shooting at a swingers club, we’d feel sad about that, but I wouldn’t say we should stand strong with swingers because that’s an objectively disordered lifestyle. But we should show compassion. So it’s always about walking a fine line, right? Because there was a powerful part in the film, and once again, the most powerful parts of the film have nothing to do with Father Martin, where they interviewed a woman whose son was Catholic. He was, he identified as gay and he died at the Pulse nightclub shooting, and she pulled out the shirt that he was wearing she keeps and interviewed him about it. And she said that there were people who didn’t go to the coroner’s office to retrieve their dead children because they were ashamed they were at a gay night club.
Trent Horn:
And that is sad and that’s wrong. I mean, even if one of my children died in a gang shooting and they had fallen into life of drugs and gang violence and died, I’d still want to bury them. I would still want to mourn for them and pray for their soul, not just going to abandon them. So, I understand that if you have, if you can’t… Catholics can’t have a callous attitude towards those who identify as LGBT. So that is something to watch out for, but that doesn’t mean we should become dangerously ambiguous like Father Martin does, and that’s shown throughout the film. What’s interesting is that, so he’s basically the protagonist of the story. The antagonist of the story is Michael Voris from Church Militant. So Michael Voris is portrayed as the other Catholic voice articulating what would be considered the traditional view on homosexuality in the church.
Trent Horn:
And actually the parts with Voris were more interesting than the parts with Father Martin, and the team did a good job, not misrepresenting Voris. I felt like what he said and how he was portrayed was sympathetic. And what he said is what he normally says, which is true, but it’s just not the best foil to Father Martin. Because Michael Voris’ argument is basically, “Suck it up buttercup. These are the rules, if you don’t like the rules, go to another church. You don’t like it. Bye, bye. It’s the Jaime Escalante treatment from Stand and Deliver. You remember Stand and Deliver with the Hispanic teacher trying to help the kids learn calculus. “Bye, bye, so long, we will miss you. Bye bye. Go. Okay, go, bye, bye.” Watch, Stand and Deliver, it’s an awesome movie.
Trent Horn:
But my point is that it comes off, kind of heartless, but we don’t have that the traditional view on sexuality is underscored by well, Jesus is teaching about marriage. Genesis through to Revelation about the purpose of marriage, the purpose of sexuality, the beauty of sexuality, the dangers of misusing our sexuality and the harms that can come from that. We don’t get any of that, it, just seems very legalistic so it’s not helpful. Though Voris is portrayed in a sympathetic light, they show him in his home with his dog, all his Catholic icons. And actually it’s probably one of the most interesting parts to me was when Voris, he talks about how he used to live, engage in homosexual conduct. I don’t know if he, I don’t think Voris calls himself gay. He doesn’t use that language, but he may have a same sex orientation, a homosexual orientation. He’s been forthright about that. He came out on Church Militant and said that a few years ago and that’s featured in the documentary.
Trent Horn:
And so he talks about that and he says in the documentary, he says, “I was living the gay lifestyle. People told me, ‘You’re more Catholic than gay.’ And I said, ‘I don’t know what that means.’ And he said that his mom prayed for him and prayed for him and prayed for him and said, ‘We love you, but we can’t support this.’ And then I think when she was dying and his brother died, his mom told him, ‘I’ll see him soon.’ And he was just really moved by her faith and that helped him to reject a same sex lifestyle and come back to the church.” So actually the most beautiful portrayal of how to authentically witness to someone who identifies as LGBT and to help them come back into full communal with Christ church and to shed anything that would keep them from God, was this story involving how Michael Voris came back to the church.
Trent Horn:
So I thought that part was very interesting. But I will say, so that is a good, that was a good story. That part should have been kept in there. But, and I mean the documentary makers, I don’t know what their slant is on all this. I’m pretty sure they, if I had to bet dollars to donuts, they agree with Father Martin. Well, I’m sure many of them think there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality itself. Or if they did agree with someone it’s going to be Father Martin. The foil, the other side to Father Martin’s position should have been articulated by Father Philip Bochanski, who is the President of Courage or I think he’s the chaplain. He is the… He runs Courage, the apostolic in the Catholic church that helps people with same sex attractions to lead chaste lives. So Father Bochanski is very articulate. He un… He’s able to express this truth in a beautiful way. That would’ve been great to see in the documentary to have someone who can speak like Father Martin, but sharing the truth in a way that is not ambiguous or distorted.
Trent Horn:
So, that would be one of the concerns I had. So it’s interesting the different voices they have. And like I said, the other voices are just more interesting. Michael Voris is more interesting. The families who identify as LGBT Catholics are more interesting than Father Martin, also the revisionist theologians. So the documentary has Father Bryan Massingale, who teaches theology at Fordham. Jason Steidl, who is a theologian. I think both of them identify as gay and they just outright say, “The church is wrong on this, and it needs to change.” And they act a little bit miffed with Father Martin that he won’t just come right out and say that. Father Martin is portrayed as like an agnostic, “I’m not going to weigh in on the debate about whether it should change or not.” But honestly, in not weighing in on it, you are. You are making your position known because Father Martin wants to act like, “I’m just trying to be kind to LGBT people.”
Trent Horn:
But as you watch through the documentary, it becomes very clear that he does want the teaching to change. Doesn’t explicitly say that, but he wants to undermine it in a way so the teaching on homosexual conduct, LGBT issues, changes in a de facto way. Because at the end of the documentary, he says to a crowd, “I used to say, the church needs to be welcoming, and that’s not enough. That you all, LGBT, need to lead. You need to lead the church.” Everyone goes in this thunderous applause at this. Because, you think about it, if the lay leaders, the teachers, the Catholic school principals, people who work at the parishes, sit on the parish council, if they are in same sex relationships, where they engage in the sin of sodomy, and they can be leaders within the church, well, how can you also maintain that sodomy is sinful?
Trent Horn:
How could you maintain that? It would be if you had a church that taught on paper, that racism is evil, but all the lay leaders in the church belong to the Ku Klux Klan. “Oh you’re saying that LGBT people are as bad as racist.” No, it’s called an analogy. By the way, that’s my Dave Ramsey voice when people make criticisms that are very poor criticisms. No, it’s an analogy. Or what if you had a polygamist teacher at your high school, or what if you had an adulterer who has a well known mistress leading the parish council. Well, who are we to judge? Right? That the sin is treated. The point is you should not treat the sins involved in same sex relationships, specifically sodomy, different than other sins. For example, if I talk about it as sodomy, rather than as LGBT issues, that applies to opposite sex couples. The people who commit the sin of sodomy the most in the world are people who have opposite sex attractions. Think about it, right?
Trent Horn:
That would be men and women who engage in disordered sexual behavior. That’s sinful. Just like people who over the same sex who engage in disordered sexual behavior. Now with the opposite sex couple, it’s easier to make that relationship ordered again. That’s why the catechism says that same sex attractions are intrinsically disordered. You cannot make the attraction for someone of the same sex ordered in any way, any more than you can make attraction. There are people who are sexually attracted to objects. You got guys in Japan who want to marry their body pillows. Where they’re attracted to other kinds of things that are not a person of the opposite sex and so it’s disordered in that regard. But, and finally, one point I’m going to make before I show you some of the different clips. I would say that the documentary is so it’s more propaganda because it shows the ugly side of people who want to uphold the church’s teaching, but not the ugly side of the people who criticize it.
Trent Horn:
Okay. So it will show people being mean to Father Martin on Twitter saying, “We’re going to spam him, get blocked by him.” And all that does is it just makes a bunch of work for the guy who runs his social media, and it allows Father Martin to portray himself as a martyr. I mean, the film is kind of disingenuous. It treats its like here’s Father Martin bravely talking about how we should be kind to LGBT people. We should be kind to everybody. That he’s some kind of brave hero being persecuted and yet then he walks down the street, “Ah, I’m going to go to Fox News tomorrow, and here’s me on Colbert Report, and here’s me on the late show. Here’s me out in Hollywood.” It doesn’t seem very persecuted to me, seems like lots and lots and lots of people in the world like him. And the only signs of persecution…
Trent Horn:
And also know you and maybe a few bishops, like Bishop Strickland, who are critical, but otherwise the most persecution you see in the documentary is people being mean on Twitter. Father Martin can have all of this praise in, throughout amongst celebrities and all these people, and yet it still seems like he’s bothered by a few people on Twitter who are mad at him. It’s… I don’t know that’s the impression that I seem to get when I was going to the documentary. But my point is, don’t give him ammunition guys. Don’t when you do these things online and you just say, “You’re a heretic.” That doesn’t that… I’ve said before that doesn’t help. Instead ask specific questions or say, “Would you be willing to dialogue with someone? Would you sit down with Father Bochanski?”
Trent Horn:
“Would you sit down with me? Or would you sit down with a Bishop who’d be willing to dialogue with you, like Bishop Barron, Archbishop Chaput? Would you be willing to sit down with someone who’s willing to…?” Because I’ve never seen, never, not in a… I’ve never seen Father Martin in an environment where someone is able to extensively challenge his position. He doesn’t put himself in that position. And I, another bet I’d be willing to make when it comes to this documentary, I bet he had full creative control over it. I bet that when he sat down, I mean, if he wants to, if he wants to say online, “No, I did not.” Great, I’d love to find out from him. But if I had to take a bet, I would say that he had some kind of contract with them saying, “I’ll sit down for your documentary, but I have to have editorial control. The final cut has to be run by me.”
Trent Horn:
I am sure someone like him he does not leave anything to chance. And so what you get from the documentary is very well manicured, but it makes Father Martin come off very one dimensional. When you watch it, if you do watch the documentary. Really good documentaries, show a person being very three dimensional, as a full human being. Watch it and ask what’s Father Martin’s biggest flaw. Everybody has one. Kind of interesting you can’t find one in the documentary, because he’s essentially in comics, we call that a Mary Sue. It’s a character who is written to be the most awesome best person ever, because you want to show they’re the most awesome best person ever, like Ray in Star Wars. And when that happens, they’re just very, very uninteresting. What’s more interesting are the other people who are in the documentary.
Trent Horn:
And so those the things I want to show you and then a few revealing moments from Father Martin. So let’s take a look. Okay. So I tried to record one of the clips seared offer commentary on it, but when I used my screen capture software on my computer, the documentary just had a black screen, it wouldn’t show anything. It showed the audio, but not the video. So I’m going to do a work around here. I got my cell phone put here on a little mini tripod so at least I can get a little bit of the video to show it to you. I think that’s an anti-piracy measure, but this isn’t piracy what I’m doing, it’s fair use commentary. So let’s jump into some of these clips here. This first one is from a protest at one of Father Martin’s talks, and I want you to contrast the people who are protesting, who are just praying the rosary, being very calm, being very civil versus those who go into the talk.
Peaceful Protesters:
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners. Now in the hour of our death. Amen.
Peaceful Protesters:
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners.
A Passersby:
Go (bleep) yourself. Go (bleep) yourselves. Yes in case nobody’s told you today, go (bleep) yourselves. Go (bleep) yourselves.
Peaceful Protesters:
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now in the hour of our death. Amen.
Trent Horn:
All right. So what’s interesting here. I mean, I don’t know this guy’s backstory. He could have had a really rough life, a really bad experience with Catholics and now he’s lashing out at people that aren’t really doing anything. But the people here, there’s signs, even the ones that say, “Sodomy is a mortal sin.” It is. That’s the thing that father Martin wants to draw people to Christ and that is a good thing, but in his message, the call to repentance seems to be so far down the line that it’s not really there at all. And so that’s problematic element. So I feel like a lot of people want to go to hear Father Martin speak might be people who just want to hear things that make them feel good, but then when they’re confronted with the bad news of sin, for which the gospel is good news and should make us feel good, they lash out in anger as a result.
Trent Horn:
So let’s jump ahead a little bit to an interview that Father Martin has with a professor from Harvard and he asked Father Martin, “Did you need help from the hierarchy to be able to set out on this mission you’re trying to accomplish?
Professor from Harvard:
In the church. So did that surprise you?
Fr. Martin:
One of the things that has been a surprise to me is that if you had asked me 20 years ago, what’s the way to go about this?
Professor from Harvard:
Right.
Fr. Martin:
I said, “Oh, just do it.”
Professor from Harvard:
Right.
Fr. Martin:
But I found that doing it with the support.
Professor from Harvard:
Yeah.
Fr. Martin:
Strengthens it.
Professor from Harvard:
If you can get the support.
Fr. Martin:
Well, if you can. Right. And I was very careful about what I said, and the fact that it did not challenge any church teaching made it fairly easier.
Professor from Harvard:
Right.
Fr. Martin:
If I had done it just off the top of my head and without any sort of approval, I would’ve, it would’ve been much harder to kind of stand firm.
Trent Horn:
This, the plot thickens a little right. Hearing the way he’s talking about this, “Oh, I watched what I said. The fact that it didn’t challenge church teaching made it easier.” It just sounds like he wants to challenge church teaching, but it’s easier for him to put forward his message because he’s not overtly doing so. So I’ll just say that this clip, I think it’s very revealing. The plot thickens is what springs to mind from it. Next. I want to go to a family that he interviews. This is very interesting. It is a family with three children, one of whom is identifies as transgender. I think a transgender man. So probably a girl who identifies as a boy. I think that’s what it was. And then later after that happened, there are two other siblings who later go on to identify as being queer and bisexual.
Trent Horn:
And the mom is like, “We’re the great big gay family and why doesn’t the church accept us?” And of course, I don’t know all the background with this family so I don’t want to assume anything about this family in particular. But if I was to hear about a general case about one sibling who identifies as transgender, and then quickly after that, two other siblings identify as queer or bisexual that to me is indicative, not necessarily in this case, but I wouldn’t be surprised in other cases or what have you of a social contagion effect. And we’ve seen this documented online that there are many cases of adolescents who have never had gender dysphoria, who later go on to claim their transgender only after being inundated with it, through social media and through their friends on social media. So they’re talking about this and the family is saying, “Why won’t we be fully accepted?” And I want to play this clip for you, because it’s actually very sad, and I blame Father Martin for it. So here we go.
Mom:
Could you love your kids? And what else were you supposed to do? And you want to keep them in the church?
Child:
Hearing Father James Martin talk about that we’re at the beginning of what could be a great change to the church is helping me I think.
Mom:
People just want to be accepted and loved who doesn’t want to be accepted and loved.
Trent Horn:
But listen to what that individual said, this LGBT individual saying, “It gives me hope from father Martin, that there’s change in the church.” When the CDF, what was it last year when they came down and said that the church cannot bless same sex unions because the church cannot bless sin. I remember going on Father Martin’s Twitter page and seeing all this anger from LGBT Catholics saying things like, “How Father Martin had deceived them. Making them think there was going to be this change in the church that very soon the church is going to say, ‘There’s nothing wrong with same sex behavior. The church teaching is going to change’.” And when he tells him this, “That you can be Catholic” and then he’ll say, “Well, I’m not saying this,” but look, that’s what they’re taking from you, Father.
Trent Horn:
They’re taking from you this idea, even if you’re not explicitly saying it, the proof is in the pudding. They’re saying, “Father Martin gets me this, a springtime in the church. It’s going to be different soon.” And you’re selling them a lie. That’s not going to happen because you cannot change God’s plan for our sexuality. And so it gives these people a false hope that they can find happiness in a church of their own making rather than in God’s plan for them. So it’s sad to see that.
Trent Horn:
Here’s another example of that, of another young man who identifies as a gay Catholic. And you see the struggle for him that I think, Father Martin wants portrayed as, “Oh, we’re welcoming to LGBT people and we want to be so affirming of the LGBT identity,” but of course the church teaches that this conduct is immoral. And Father Martin acts like there’s no cognitive dissonance here. But this young man, he actually shows the dissonance, the problem in that it’s either you can’t… Father Martin’s position is just not tenable. You either have to go full dissenter, like Father Massingale does in the documentary, or you have to accept that the church teaching is what God has revealed and my life needs to conform to that. Father Martin is a halfway house that is built on a… It’s a house of cards. It’s a halfway house of cards is what it is. So take a listen.
Young Man:
The biggest issue comes when I step into the church. When I start, when I surround myself with that environment, there are times where I feel like I kind of leave the rainbow flag at the door. There… It’s almost as if I have to separate the two, there’s no blending. It’s difficult to talk about it because I don’t even know how to talk about it with myself. I grew up learning that committing homosexual acts was wrong, not okay. And that I’m Catholic and I have to agree with that, I have to believe that. It took me a while. I want to say sophomore year when I came out and when I had to face that reality, it was my hardest year. I wasn’t too happy with myself.
Young Man:
I felt like I was betraying my church, my school, my father. If you ask me where I am now, I think now I’m in a period where I try not to think about it too much. I’m not ready to face that I don’t think. I’m not ready to… I don’t think I can find a place where both of them fit as much as my father has tried. As much as Jim has tried. There is a bit of doubt in my body, in my mind. I don’t think. I don’t think I’ll find an answer to that question. Yeah.
Trent Horn:
This to me is one of the most interesting parts of the documentary. That you can see in this young man, he’s trying to put two opposing things together that he understands what the church teaches and he knows he has to accept that to be Catholic, but he can’t harmonize that with celebrating LGBT, gay pride, everything that Father Martin says, everything that in his community where this is something to celebrate and to be proud of, he can’t put the two together. They don’t mix, it’s like oil and water. And so he doesn’t see how you could really be a gay Catholic like Father Martin would say. That you really have to go to in one of two areas, what Father Martin offers is not tenable. It is a halfway house of cards. All right.
Trent Horn:
You either have to be a full blown dissenter and just say, “The church is wrong. I am right. One day, the church is going to catch up to me,” which is what Father Massingale and Jason Steidl do in this documentary, the revisionist theologians. You got to be a full blown dissenter, or you have to affirm what has been traditionally taught, which is the deposit of faith, what God has given us, our plan for our sexuality, and then conform your life to that plan and find joy in the midst of that sufferings, whether you are identified as LGBT, divorced and remarried, whether you are carrying a cross of abuse, trauma, poverty, we all have crosses that we carry. And the question is, will we carry that in conformity and ask God to help us or try to rearrange the church to make it in the image that we want. And that path will ultimately not lead to the joy and fulfillment that God wants for us.
Trent Horn:
But I really appreciated they included this young man, because I think it shows just like with the previous interview, with that family, with the transgender, queer, and bisexual children, that what Father Martin wants to offer, it’s really, it’s almost unfair in what it tries to do. Either just be out, come out of the closet, if you will, and just dissent and say, “The church is wrong, we are right, and that is that.” Or maybe the church. “I cannot be a part of the church until I wrap my head around this teaching.” Or submit to what is being taught and be led by Christ in the fullness of what he desires for us, that’s what we need to do. And I think that this really, this one interview itself shows how hollow Father Martin’s approach can be. Also by the way, something else I noticed in the documentary, a lot of people refer to Father Martin as Jim.
Trent Horn:
Now I’ve known people for who are friends of mine. I’ve known them before they were priests. I’ve known them for 20 years since I was in high school. I’ve known them long before they were priests. I know Father Matt Lowry at the NAU Newman Center, one of my best friends, mentors when I was in high school, I don’t call him Matt. I call him Father Lowry. My sponsor coming into the church is Father John Parks. When I’m with him, I don’t call him John, he’s Father John. He’s, Father Parks. Even someone I’ve known for 20, 25 years before they were priests.
Trent Horn:
But lots of people in this documentary refer to Father Martin as Jim. And I think that’s a little indicative of the attitude they have towards the hierarchy, that bishops and priests they’re just like us, but in different garb or clothes. But we are the church so we get to decide what the church teaches. The subtle detail I noticed throughout the documentary. Here’s another one that I think is interesting when he is being asked about church teaching and I want you to listen to his response. So let’s go to that.
Fr. Martin:
So you got to be kind of careful. What if I got photographed with a banner in favor of same sex marriage, and then that gets sent all over the place and right.
Individual:
Why would that be such a bad thing?
Fr. Martin:
Because I’m not supposed to support same sex marriage.
Trent Horn:
Did you notice the way he phrased it? “I’m not supposed to support same sex marriage.” Instead of just saying, “Because I don’t support same sex marriage or because there is no such thing as same sex marriage.” When you phrase it, as I’m not supposed to do that, that’s like saying, “I wish I could do that, but my bosses won’t let me.” It’s like when you go to a restaurant and the manager says, “I’d like to help you, but I’m not supposed to do that.” I’m not, “Hey, I’m not supposed to do this.” Which means I want to do this, but I’m not allowed to. That’s kind of what that means, right?
Trent Horn:
Or if you’re out with friends, they say, “Hey, do you want to get dessert tonight?” “Oh, I’m really not supposed to have dessert.” What that means is I really want to, but I’m just not allowed to. So once again, I do appreciate the parts of the documentary, where it gives us little, you call them Freudian slips if you will, of what may be going on in Father Martin’s mind on some of these things. But I just thought that was a very interesting phrase to use. And then finally, I would like to take us to just the end, the LGBT mass that they celebrate at the end of the film just because it’s so cringe. It’s just, it’s very cringey. Here take a look.
LGBT Mass:
(Singing).
Fr. Martin:
What does it mean to be an LGBTQ Catholic? Sometimes you’ll feel unwelcome in places just like Jesus did in Samaria. Sometimes it won’t feel like you have a home just like Jesus felt when he had to sleep by the side of the road. Root yourself in your baptism and claim your place in your church. You know-
Trent Horn:
This is a man centered religion. What this is? There is no call to conversion. There is no call to grow in holiness. Now I get that this is just a part of the homily that he gave. But can you tell what position those in the assembly they’re being put in? We don’t identify ourselves with sinners in need of salvation, with those who are pursuing the righteousness of Christ. We are Jesus. Remember just like, if you don’t feel welcome, Jesus didn’t feel welcome either. Jesus had a mission and we have a mission. It’s our church. As if it’s not about us being saved. This gospel, this bridge that Father Martin is building is about the LGBT community saving the church is what it turns into. So instead of being a God centered religion, it’s a very man centered one, that will twist and turn everything so that eventually it doesn’t matter who receives the Eucharist. There’s no such thing as hell. All that matters is taking what was already acceptable for social justice warriors and then accommodating that with a religious apparatus around it.
Fr. Martin:
Lee, I’ve been hearing that it’s not enough for the Catholic church to be welcoming, affirming, and inclusive. And I think I would’ve said something differently a year ago, but I agree because those are the minimum. Instead, LGBTQ Catholics should fully expect to participate in all of the ministries in your church, not just being welcomed and affirmed and included, but leading. Leading.
Trent Horn:
So there you go. That is the ultimate goal. I really do believe that what Father Martin is doing is that he practices dangerous ambiguities in what he says about this teaching in order to make a de facto effort to change the church’s teaching. It’s something he doesn’t explicitly say he’s trying to do, but he implicitly does it with his actions. Undermine not just the teaching on LGBT issues, but so many other teachings would fall to the wayside if the barometer we use to determine whether the teaching is sound is whether as we, as modern people can accept it.
Trent Horn:
And that leads to why is the path that leads to destruction. So I hope this is helpful for you all to get an insight into all of this. I’m definitely studying this a lot more, because I’m very interested in writing a book on rebutting this kind of liberal Catholicism, just for the good of souls and also for our own side by the way to remember. Like I said before, don’t give people like Father Martin, unnecessary ammunition by being mean-spirited or cruel. Matthew 10:16, “Be as wise as serpents, but as gentle as doves.” That is what we need to do in order to preach the truth outside the church and even within the church.
Trent Horn:
So thank you guys very much. I hope this is helpful and I hope you have a very blessed day.
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