In this episode Trent sits down with autistic priest Fr. Matthew Schneider and John Kraemer, a lay Catholic with cerebral palsy, to discuss what we can learn from people in the disabled community and how we as a Church can better minister to them.
Welcome to The Counsel of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
Hi and thanks for stopping by The Counsel of Trent podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers’ apologist and speaker Trent Horn. Before I introduce the guests that will be joining us today, want to give a big shout out and thanks to our supporters at trenthornpodcast.com. I’m so grateful for your support, because you’ve allowed our podcast to grow. We’ve gotten to over a thousand ratings on iTunes and other podcast review apps. So we’re really growing, we’re reaching a lot of people. And leaving ratings, sharing podcast episodes on social media and supporting us at trenthornpodcast.com, really do make this possible. And so if you want to help the podcast to grow, to reach more people, to expand out to YouTube… And you should go to YouTube. I mean, I was kind of off my video game here the past few weeks, I’ve been distracted by the pandemic, but I got a recent rebuttal video up.
Your support of the podcast by the way, allows us to post those rebuttal videos on our Counsel of Trent YouTube page. So be sure to go and check that out, just search Counsel of Trent, on YouTube. We got a new one up, rebutting Bill Nye the Science Guy, on abortion and sexualities. So you’re not going to want to miss that. And we’ll be doing more rebuttal videos, but your support makes that possible. So consider even for just $5 a month, you make that possible and you get access to bonus content, sneak peaks of our upcoming books, audio books, and the ability to submit questions for our open mailbag episodes. Now, onto the show today. Today’s topic is about ministering to persons with disabilities. So how this got started is actually one of our guests… Well, the two guests we have on today are John Kramer, who’s going to talk to us about his LEGO Church Project and Fr. Matthew Schneider, who is a priest who brings awareness to the issue of autism.
How this got started actually, was that I saw on social media that John was sharing his LEGO Church Project, which we’re going to discuss here shortly. And someone said to him, “Oh, you should go on Trent Horn’s podcast.” And he’s like, “Ah, a man can dream.” And I’m just like, “You bet he can.” And so I just sent him a message and said, “Yeah, of course. I’m always looking for insightful voices who can help us better understand our church and our world.” And I think I got two stellar ones here with us today. So John, why don’t you say hi. We have John Kramer and Fr. Matthew Schneider. Guys, welcome to the Counsel of Trent.
John Kraemer:
Thanks for having us.
Fr. Matthew Schneider:
Thank you for having me, Trent.
TH:
Okay, perfect. So I believe that first voice was John, and Fr. Matthew, second. So first here, what we’re going to do is I’m going to read a news article about each of you and then I’ll allow you to respond. And then I just have some more general questions on the topic that we’re going to be approaching today. So John, let’s start with you. This is an article from Detroit Catholic, this past December. The headline is called, Build my church: Saginaw man’s LEGO project has inspired Catholics for 20 years. And so I’ll just read the opening introduction to the article. “John Kramer has cerebral palsy, which limits his ability to drive or work. Despite the challenge, he has demonstrated brick by brick how those with disabilities can share their God given talents with others. For the past 20 years, Kramer has evangelized by displaying his LEGO Church Project, a replica Catholic parish built using LEGO bricks. Kramer begins each project season in February or March and it takes about two months to finish a church, depending on the detail. He uses anywhere from 20,000 to 25,000 bricks.”
Now John, I’m super excited to talk to you about this, because I am a big LEGO junkie. I remember my brother and I, when we were growing up, we had this… You know, kind of like you buy the sets, you build the sets and then eventually you tear the sets down and everything ends up in one big bin of LEGOs. So you’ve just got this potpourri mix bin of LEGOs and that’s what we had and we built all kinds of stuff together. And now I’m sad, because I think my mom eventually got rid of them a while ago and that’s little plastic gold. Because now I’m buying them for my kids and I’m like, “Oh, I wish I had that giant bins.” So tell us what motivated you to start this project?
JK:
Well what happened for me is, growing up I’d always been doing churches on some kind of level, while they weren’t by no means complex structures that you see now. But when I did my first display in Flushing, Michigan, that kind of opened up the doors a little bit to taking what had been at that point, a childhood hobby and turning into something a little bit more deeper. When I did my first Christmas display at my home parish here in Saginaw, Christ the Good Shepherd, back in 2003, that kind of pushed things even further. That kind of turned this into more of an evangelization of what I’ve been doing with it. And basically, what I do is I literally build a church out of LEGO bricks. In fact, Season 21, I started end of January and by March, 6th I had it finished. So yeah, I really do a lot with the LEGOs, a lot of different things that go into it. And each year is a different design. Each year is a different design, where I’ll tear apart when it comes home from the final display and then I start the process all over again.
TH:
And then according to the article it says, “Although the project takes up much of his time, Kramer blogs his spiritual reflections at prayingbricks.blogspot.com. He sings in his church choir, is a licensed amateur radio operator.” So do you do ham radio or another kind?
JK:
No, it is ham radio.
TH:
Ham radio, right. Wonderful. See, I’m loving this already. I’m loving finding people I can connect with. And, “Is a guest speaker on podcasts, and raises awareness for those with disabilities.” So can you tell us a little bit more about what life with cerebral palsy is like and how you use this ministry to raise awareness about disabilities with others?
JK:
For me, it’s always been about giving help. I have mobility issues, with my walk sometimes. Sometimes things don’t always make sense to me as they should, or even sometimes even basic overreactions to common everyday things, everyday stressors. You learn to live within your disability. You learn to adapt, to try and figure out how to find solutions to problems that you may arise, and in ways that other people may not even think. What I do at the LEGO Church Project and my writings now, is I share my thoughts on it. I share hope, for those who may be struggling in different areas. And I try and give more insight, as to what it means to live the faith, even with challenges that we have.
TH:
Beautiful. Let’s turn now, to Fr. Matthew. I’m going to read an article. This was published in the National Catholic Register , last April, so about a year ago. The title of the article is, Catholic Priest Shares His Story of Life With Autism. And so this is just the introduction to the article. “When Fr. Matthew Schneider was asked to move on after just one year of a three year assignment as school chaplain and youth ministry leader, he was shocked. “I wasn’t expecting it,” he said. “I knew it was a new role and I had made some mistakes, but I figured, well, there’s a learning curve. And almost anybody’s going to make a few mistakes given a new role like that.” But his superiors believed the assignment was not a good fit for him. They cited struggles with social communication as a reason for their decision.”
“While the experience was frustrating for Fr. Schneider at the time, today he looks back on that moment as a blessing, because it eventually led him to be diagnosed with autism. A diagnosis that helped him better understand himself and ultimately define roles and ministries that were better suited to him. In a video released April 2nd World Autism Awareness Day, Fr. Schneider decided to go public with his diagnosis.” So Fr. Schneider, can you tell us a little more about yourself? You also have a significant social media following. I see a lot of your… You blog online and always shared on social media. So tell us a little more about that and how you’ve brought awareness to this particular issue.
FMS:
Well so for me, I had just started actually when I was studying theology in Rome. I started doing a lot of social media and then it just started taking off and turned out I was good at it. And looking back, I find that to a certain extent, the autism might be something that helps me in social media. Because one of the biggest difficulties I think a lot of people have on social media, is that they lack the theory of mind. So when you’re talking to somebody face to face, you’re looking for those nonverbal communication things, through their expressions, through the tone of voice and things like that. And based on those, you know what would be socially acceptable and what would be kind of rude or other things like that. Being autistic, I miss a lot of that on the subconscious level.
So I had to develop a passable, conscious version of that. And the reality I think, is sometimes people who have a subconscious version, when they go online, they forget about that and they lack charity. Even though if they were ever meeting anybody face to face, they’d have that charity. And so that’s one of those things where, because I had to put in all that work to make it conscious, because I didn’t have it subconsciously like most, it actually helped me out in that particular area, where having a conscious theory of mind can really be beneficial. So you are thinking about what you’re saying when it’s just text, as opposed to the voice and the face and everything else you get in a normal, face to face conversation.
TH:
This is something that my wife always reminds me. It’s so funny. I’ll be writing an email and sometimes she’ll look it over before I send it to someone and she says, “Oh this email could be a lot nicer.” And I was thinking, “What do you mean my email is not nice? It’s perfectly making the point, what I’m going to say to this person.” And her solution to that is usually just to change all the periods into exclamation points, to show some kind of excited enthusiasm that might’ve been lost in what I’m writing. But that’s an interesting observation that you make, in that for someone in your perspective, you have to make a conscious effort to see the emotional reactions that other people have. And so you’re on alert, so to speak, for how the way we might speak casually could be misinterpreted by others. And yet when we go… You’re right, when we get into the world of social media, it feels like if you don’t put little emojis next to every sentence, it’s easy for them to be misinterpreted.
FMS:
Oh, definitely. And so that’s been one of the big things that I think has helped me out. And right now, I’m working on a doctoral degree in moral theology. And so some of my articles now are on topics related with that, or topics related with autism and different things, the type of things that I’m blogging, because those are the kinds of things that I’m thinking about. And I figure if there’s something that can be shared and can help a hundred other people, why not share it and help them rather than just keeping it to myself?
TH:
Sure. Now, I have a few questions for both of you. Feel free to answer as you feel comfortable. The first question is this, what are some theological insights or reflections that you have, when it comes to seeing how having disabilities fits into God’s Providence? It was just a few nights ago, my kids are at home and it’s because of the pandemic. We’re a lot more lax when it comes to the TV watching rules. So it’s like, “Ah, the world’s in a crisis right now, you can have a little more TV.” But I always liked them to watch programming, that I think is edifying. So we show them like good, solid family movies. And one they’ve really gotten into now is, The Prince of Egypt, a 1998 Dreamworks film, that’s an adaptation of the Exodus story. And I love how it’s done, it’s so artistic.
And I was just thinking of the scene where Moses meets God in the burning bush. And God says, “I’ve chosen you Moses, to lead my people out of Egypt.” And Moses says, “You’ve got the wrong guy. I am slow of speech. I’m not the one to do this.” And God kind of fires back in the film thunderously, “Who made man’s mouth? Who made the blind and the deaf? Is it not I, the Lord?” And then he draws him back in, comforting Moses, “I will be with you. I will give you power, know what to say.” But think about that though, that God has… For either of you, your thoughts on this. That God is sovereign over the whole world, how having a disability fits into seeing oneself as a child of God?
FMS:
Well, I think that there was a recent book written by a woman named Summer Kincaid, I think that’s the right way to pronounce her name, called, Oh such of the Kingdom. And she’s an Orthodox Christian, but she’s really talking about disability ministry and disability theology. Summer [Kennard 00:13:20], not Kincaid. Thomas Kincaid, Summer Kennard. And she mentions how in Christian theology, we think of God made man in all these different forms. We think of, even in the first chapter of Genesis, male and female are created in his image and likeness, he created them. And she extends that to say, “Well, if God can create in both male and female, he can also create in both with certain disabilities or without disabilities. And that we should see how each person in their bodiliness, is that image and likeness of God and is able to transmit the image and likeness of God.”
JK:
Going back for me, as I was reflecting on this question, for me you look at the lives of the saints, particularly the ones that did have challenges. Fr. Solanus Casey comes to mind right off the bat, because of his learning disabilities and other things. And we realize that, no matter what we do, God has a purpose for all of us in this. And we can use our challenges to draw closer to him, to make us more humble and more receptive to what God wants to do in our lives. And we can share that with others, in a very creative outlet.
TH:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah it reminds me, I guess of two things. One is of course Viktor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning. Where he says that the root of despair, for most people, is not finding meaning in life. That you can endure… And he was a concentration camp survivor. You can endure unimaginable suffering, if you are able to find the meaning in that suffering. So I remember a while back, hearing about a woman, who I believe she was a quadriplegic. I don’t think she had any physical ability beneath her neck, confined to a wheelchair.
And when she would hear a story about someone going through a tragedy or difficult time, she would have those helping her, caretakers, put a pen in her mouth, so she could type out a message on a screen. To email these people and give them encouragement, through the suffering that they’re going through. Especially, because she had gone through so much in her own life. So do you think that sometimes, either having a disability or having a close relationship with someone with a disability, such as having a child or a friend or a spouse with a disability, can provide those kinds of opportunities?
FMS:
I would think so. I mean, I think one of the things that I just remember, not long after I was diagnosed, I told my local religious community, because I’m a religious priest. So I was living, at that time, with about other 10 other priests and brothers, in the Legionaries of Christ. And one of the priests came up to me afterwards and said, “In a way, one aspect of this is now you know what your cross is, because all of us have our cross to carry.” And that disability is that cross to carry, that redemptive suffering that we each go through. And I think for a lot of us, who are disabled in some way, that is a huge part of it. And we can help the disabled to do things, like you were talking about that paraplegic woman, if we are really thinking about that aspect and how that one… How Saint Paul says, “I make up what is lacking in Christ’s suffering and my own suffering, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” And I probably paraphrased that slightly wrong, but…
TH:
Oh, that is a fine translation of Colossians 1:24. John, what do you think?
JK:
No, I actually agree with Father on this one, completely I think. And I think that, for those of us, at least in my own life, I know that people have been impacted by the things that I have done and the things that I have shared. And they have been very grateful for what insight that I can give. People have been very receptive to what I’ve had to say on things in the past and they look… And so even though I have the challenges that I do have, people are starting to realize that there’s more to life and that I do, and the people like us do, have something to offer that’s positive.
TH:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, here’s another question that I have. What are some responses towards with disabilities, that come from good intentions but they may not actually be helpful? Because I think that there’s always trying to find, for a lot of people, especially those who don’t have as much experience with people in the disabled community. But most people have good hearts, especially within the church, and they want to do good. But if you’re not as familiar with how other people live their lives or what they’re experiencing, sometimes good intentions don’t come off as well. So do you have any examples of that of how people might respond? Even if it’s with a very good intention, it may not be the best kind of response?
JK:
Oh yeah. The one that comes to mind is, when people suggest to me that I should become a greeter at one of the local box stores. And the problem with that is, you don’t know what a person’s full limitations are. They see the physical stuff, but they may not see the internal mechanics, so to speak, that would prevent them from actually being able to maintain employment. I’ve certainly run into that with a few of my friends. Good intention, well meaning people, but they don’t fully understand the full scope of what it is that I face.
TH:
Right. I mean, it’s judging a book by its cover. I mean-
JK:
Exactly.
TH:
And just because you say, “Oh, you look like a person that I’ve seen greeting at Walmart.” It’s like, “Oh, okay. But you know what? I might have a totally different personality.” Like me, for example, I wouldn’t be a great greeter at Walmart because my wife’s always telling me, “Trent, be more friendly with people.” I’m just like, “Oh, that’s not my emotional temperament, I have to work on.” Father, what are your thoughts?
FMS:
Well, I think one of the things that we often overlook is something that Bob Quinlan, of the National Catholic Partnership on Disabilities, mentioned to me. It was kind of providential. I was recording a video on a Catholic Ministry Conference, interviewing people. And then like three days later, I actually went and got my formal diagnosis of being autistic. And then I edited the video, right after I had formally been diagnosed. But what he said was, paraphrasing him, was basically, what we can fail to do, is if we think of the disabled only as those who receive ministry, not as those who are also ministers. And if we really want what’s best for them, we should want them, not just to receive the good but to be good and do good and transmit good. Which means finding ways, which might vary, as John noted, some ways might not work. Finding ways for people, wherever they are or whatever kind of disabilities they have, to be ministers in the church, to serve the church, to build up the church.
TH:
Right. I think that for me, when I’ve tried to approach this, in language and in action, I think something that’s always helpful is to always put the person first. And sometimes that can be very subtle. For example, instead of the phrase, “Special needs child,” maybe more preferable to say, “A child with special needs.” Or a person with disabilities instead of a disabled person. It can be subtle like that. But I think the idea for me, and I’m happy to be corrected on this also, if I’m espousing a not great idea with good intentions, is to put the person first. And sometimes I think even with these good intentions, some people will think that someone who has a disability should automatically be praised as a hero.
TH:
When it’s like, and even people in the disabled community would say, “Well no, there are people with disabilities who are very heroic and kind, and people with disabilities that are just the absolute, really need a lot of help and grace from God to overcome character deficiencies and defects. Because these are people, and people come in all different kinds of temperaments and aptitudes.” And so I think the idea of keeping the person first, is probably a good way to go. I don’t know if I’ve summarized it well.
FMS:
I think that that’s generally good. I think that in general, there are a few types of disabilities, where those who have the disabilities, by majority, prefer to be called by the other way around, which we call identity first language. And those would be the deaf, the blind and the autistic, they would generally prefer to be called those. And if we think about it, those three disabilities relate directly to language. And so it’s similar to how somebody who has a different language, speaks a different language. For us on the autism spectrum, it’s the nonverbal section of language that’s different. And when that’s part of the reality, I think that there is something of… Just like I might say, “I’m Canadian,” which I am originally, even though I’ve lived most of my adult life in the States and something like that. So I think in general, that’s right. But I think there’s a few specific cases, where the community really feels that we are better represented by using the term as an adjective, rather than with whatever conditions.
TH:
Oh, okay. That makes sense. And then of course, I guess you can’t go wrong by just asking people what their preferences are, in these different situations.
FMS:
Oh yes. And I mean, I’m saying this as a majority. Even in the autistic community, you’ll get a minority, but not unheard of for people to refer to a person with autism. And so that’s… But at least generally, I start out with what I know that is preferred by the majority in that community, when I’m speaking about a disability.
TH:
Sure. John?
JK:
So for me, I mean, I’d like to be known as someone… I mean, even though I have cerebral palsy, that is just part of my life. And I think, and Fr. Matt touches upon this, is that within each community we have our own preferences and no one person has that same kind of a viewpoint. For me, I’ve always been more focused on doing the project and stuff and that. So for me, the disability kind of becomes secondary to what I am and more about the message of what I’m trying to share. But as I said, that’s just me though.
TH:
Sure. Sure. We’re coming to a close of our time together. My last question is just, how can the church, whether it’s clergy or probably even more for our purposes, lay-people who are attending mass or Catholic schools, how can we as a church better minister to people with disabilities? Either within the flock or those who are outside of the church looking in or may have been away for a long time?
JK:
I think for me it’s always been about attitude, to coming to the understanding, that someone coming into the church may have their own challenges and struggles. And that no matter how hard we want to try and empathize, we may not fully understand what they’re faced with. And we just have to come to them and not be afraid to talk to them, and find out what they feel that they can do and what they’re comfortable doing. And you might be surprised, you might get some unexpected volunteers.
TH:
Okay, great. Father?
FMS:
I would say, more or less, same thing as John. I’d say the first step a lot of times for people is, to first be aware, to understand, to ask what they need or how they might be able to help. Because almost every disability is different, even within a certain disability, the capacities or talents can be very different or the needs can be very different. And then to accept them for who they are. To not say like, “Oh, you have to become this un-disabled person or pretend you’re this un-disabled person to help out.” And then once you accept them there, you can find the things that they can help out on, find the things that they can do, to really build up the church, like John was talking about.
TH:
A quick follow up with that, for you Father. I think one challenge that is faced in Catholic schools and parishes, and we’re talking about the autism spectrum, would be what should we do, especially for children who may have a form of autism? Because autism exists on a spectrum, that some forms of autism, a person is unable to communicate or may have bouts where they make loud noises for example. So where it may become, feeling like there’s a difficulty in helping this person fully interact with the parish or school community. What are your thoughts on helping people with that kind of autism?
FMS:
Well, I think with those who are nonverbal, the thing is to try and find out if they have some way to speak through electronic means or through a touch pad or things like that. I’ve run into a few, where it takes them longer because they use basically like an iPad to type out what they want to say. And it’s either audio or another one had basically like a portable keyboard, they pull out of their pocket and pointed to the letters, to spell out what they want to say. And I think those things, there’s sometimes patience. When they can’t communicate at all, obviously, you just hope that what you say is communicated to them. Hopefully most, by early elementary, are at least able to interact in some way through some electronic or other means and such.
And then when there’s ones who have outbursts, hopefully as they get a little bit older, they can either learn to control them. Or if they’re about to have an outburst, to step outside of the church during service for two minutes, have an outburst, come back in. I mean, we shouldn’t be too worried if somebody steps out of the church for a minute or two to deal with some kind of personal issue in the middle of Mass. We don’t complain when kids say, “I got to go to the bathroom,” and their dad or mom walks them to the back of church, because that’s just life. And I think we have to deal with, like if they have an issue where they’re about to have a meltdown or something like that, or they need some kind of verbal stim at that moment. Well, step outside for two or three minutes, come back in if you’re ready. And don’t feel like it’s some kind of bad thing. It’s taking care of yourself, so you’re being charitable to everyone else as well.
TH:
Sure. And then I’d also make a recommendation for our listeners, that if you want to help more, if you feel a calling to serve, especially if this is a community that you feel a calling to serve and help and you desire to go into special education. Special education is a wonderful field. I have good friends who are involved in that, who have taught at schools dedicated to those who have autism. It’s a field we desperately need, especially in Catholic schools, both to accommodate allowing having special education teachers and classrooms, to have that in the first place. And then to find people who are very skilled in that, to be able to offer that for students in those environments. So it’s definitely something else to also pray for. Gentlemen, where can people go to find out more about what you all are doing and to follow up with that?
JK:
Well, I am on Facebook under the LEGO Church Project Facebook page. A page that I’ve had for a good number of years, that is like the central hub for everything that I do. And I do post updates quite frequently.
TH:
Okay, perfect. Father?
FMS:
You can find me in two different places. If you just go Fr. Matthew LLC, on pretty much any social media, you’ll find out my general Catholic commentary, news, things like that. If you want stuff specific to autism, Autistic Priest on Facebook and Twitter, and you’ll find me. I post on both most days.
TH:
Very good. Fr. Matthew Schneider and John Kramer, of the LEGO Church Project. Thank you both for being with us today on the Counsel of Trent podcast.
JK:
Thank you for having me.
FMS:
God bless you, Trent.
TH:
All right, thank you guys so much. Be sure to go follow up with them on social media online and follow up with us as well. While you’re there, be sure to stop by iTunes, Google Play, leave a review for us. And consider checking us out at trenthornpodcast.com. Thank you guys so much for listening and I hope that everyone who’s listening has a very blessed day.
If you like today’s episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page, and get access to member only content. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com.