In this episode Trent is joined by Catholic Answers Live assistant producer Marie Bates and former marketing intern Annie Barrack to answer patron questions on how Catholics should discern dating and face challenges in marriage.
Welcome to the Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
Welcome to the Counsel of Trent Podcast, I’m your host, Catholic Answers apologist and speaker, Trent Horn. We’ve got a special in-studio version of the Counsel of Trent Podcast today, I’m doing one of my regular quarterly visits to Catholic Answers 2020 Gillespie in San Diego, always fun to be here, to be in the studio, to see all of my colleagues, and to be able to record Counsel of Trent episodes here in the studio, where we record Catholic Answers Live, and Catholic Answers Focus.
Trent Horn:
For this episode, we’re going to talk about open questions about marriage and dating, I have two excellent guests to help me. The questions are provided by our patrons at trenthornpodcast.com. So, if you want to provide questions for Open Mailbag episodes… We do these pretty frequently, you can submit your questions there. Just go to trenthornpodcast.com. You also, if you become a premium subscriber, get access to bonus content, or catechism study series. Soon, we’ll be having a New Testament study series, all that and more at trenthornpodcast.com, do check it out.
Trent Horn:
Now, onto the topic of today’s show, Open Mailbag, Marriage and Dating, let me introduce our guests to help us answer the questions that were submitted to us about, how should Catholics look at being married, being dating, discerning the married life? My guests are Marie Bates, assistant producer here at Catholic Answers, and she represents our newly married host. We’ve done this show before, you’ve undergone somewhat of a change.
Marie Bates:
Yes. David and I were just dating, actually, we weren’t even engaged when we last did the show. So, this will be fun today. [inaudible 00:01:45].
Trent Horn:
I know. I’m really excited that the last time we did the Open Mailbag, you and David were just the young happy dating couple, now you’re the young happy, married couple, and special news for everybody.
Marie Bates:
Yeah, baby on the way. Baby boy on the way, due September, so I’m really excited.
Trent Horn:
Baby boy. A little half British baby. I love it.
Marie Bates:
As David says, “A beautiful British baby.”
Trent Horn:
I love it. He’ll come out and say, “Mum, where’s my tea? [inaudible 00:02:10] the spot of tea, mum?”
Marie Bates:
That’s a reality… Yeah, that could happen.
Trent Horn:
Quite possible. Our other guest today is Annie Barrack, and he is representing the dating crew. And actually, you’re engaged, when are you getting married?
Annie Barrack:
November 6th.
Trent Horn:
And I want you to share with everyone… I think you have an amazing story about how you met your fiance, or really how your fiance met you. So, can you share that with us?
Annie Barrack:
[inaudible 00:02:38] Yeah. So, a lot of this story, when I tell it, is just from what I’ve heard. So, my fiance, he’s not from San Diego, he lives here now, his parents and him are huge fans of Catholic Answers. My mom works here. So, when his parents were visiting, they came from out of town, and they took a tour of the studio, and on the tour, they take you to everyone’s office, and they went through my mom’s office, and they kept going on the tour, and then my mom thought to herself, “Oh my gosh, I need to set my daughter up with him.”
Trent Horn:
That’s so what your mom would do, so-
Marie Bates:
Wait, he was with your parents on the tour, or no?
Annie Barrack:
He was with his parents.
Trent Horn:
His parents.
Marie Bates:
Oh, got it.
Trent Horn:
So, your fiance was with his parents, they’re coming to Catholic Answers on a tour, and then they run into your mom, who is the director of marketing here, and she’s like, “This is the guy that needs to marry my daughter.” And she takes matters into her own hands… And then, could you lean a little closer to mic, tell us?
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. Sorry.
Trent Horn:
That’s fine.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. Exactly.
Trent Horn:
She took a picture of you.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. So, she took my Facebook profile picture, runs down the hall, and goes up to him and she goes, “Sorry, I don’t mean to bug you, but are you single?” And then, [crosstalk 00:03:56].
Trent Horn:
He’s like, “You might be a little old for me, and I think you’re married, but-”
Annie Barrack:
Exactly. And he goes, “Yeah.” And then, my mom… So, she shows him the picture, and she goes, “I’m just giving you information, she’s singing this weekend at this Mass, if you want to go [crosstalk 00:04:13].”
Marie Bates:
What a wingwoman.
Annie Barrack:
I know.
Marie Bates:
Oh, my goodness.
Annie Barrack:
I know. Oh my gosh, the thought of it there just makes me anxious. And so, he ended up coming to the Mass that she told him I was singing at.
Trent Horn:
Wow.
Annie Barrack:
And then, he asked me to go to some Bible study thing, and then after that, we started dating, and-
Trent Horn:
When he asked you to the Bible study, did he tell you he had already talked to your mom, or did he just say, “Hey, do you want to come to the Bible study?”
Annie Barrack:
My mom gave him strict instructions not to say anything to me-
Trent Horn:
Whoa.
Annie Barrack:
… because if I had known my mom went up to him at work, and tried setting me up with some random guy-
Marie Bates:
You would’ve not been interested.
Annie Barrack:
I would have been totally uninterested, embarrassed, mortified.
Trent Horn:
Your mom is very clever, especially because she told him to meet you to go to Mass. So, she didn’t tell you, but you were cantoring singing at Mass… Excuse me, and so you were already dressed in your Sunday best. So, if you think about it, it’s clever on her end that he goes… You don’t know he’s meeting you, but you’re already dressed up nice for Mass anyways. It’s not like she invited him, “Come by the house,” he shows your Facebook picture, and you’re at the house, you’re just in sweats, no makeup. Like, “I promise, I do look like that.”
Annie Barrack:
Oh, gosh. Yeah.
Trent Horn:
But it worked out.
Annie Barrack:
It did. It worked out great. And I met his parents the same time I met him.
Marie Bates:
Oh, my goodness.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah, I know. So, it was a lot. But yeah, it was a great way to meet someone, and super easy. Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Lessons to all the mothers-
Marie Bates:
Wow.
Trent Horn:
… who may be listening to the podcast today, you can be your daughter’s best wingwoman and find that excellent Catholic man. We all have to help each other, actually, when it comes to helping singles discern in marriage, helping those who are married. So, let’s jump into the questions. I divided them up based on those that are focused on dating and engagement, and those that are focused on marriage. So, let’s talk about the dating ones first, because those are always fun. Although, I am glad to be out of the dating lifestyle.
Marie Bates:
Oh, me too.
Trent Horn:
I love just the-
Marie Bates:
And you too probably.
Annie Barrack:
Oh my gosh, so glad.
Trent Horn:
I know, you look back here just like, “Oh…” That’s why I always tell Laura, I’m like, “Laura, don’t get hit by a bus because I can’t-”
Marie Bates:
We’re not doing this again.
Trent Horn:
I’m not doing it again. All right. First one, is it okay to go on trips together to get to know each other? How do you avoid temptations related to cohabitation? That’s a big one, you’re dating somebody, you want to go on a trip together, or maybe you’re long distance… Laura and I were long distance for about three years. So, what do you guys think of this?
Annie Barrack:
Well, I definitely think if you’re going to go on a trip alone for an extended period of time, you really prop… That will make temptation really difficult. I probably wouldn’t do it. I definitely wouldn’t do it right now.
Trent Horn:
I’d would say definitely, the red X would be on staying in the same place together, unsupervised, or unchaperoned.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Marie Bates:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
I think though that the temptation here can be mitigated if you have chaperones. I don’t know what you think of that.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. I mean, we went to Joshua Tree with his family, and I mean, we did not stay in the same room alone the entire time, there was no opportunity.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Annie Barrack:
And we were able to spend time with his family, go on a fun trip, have a great experience, and it was a great trip.
Marie Bates:
Yeah. I would say for David and I, traveling is something we both love to do, and we love to go see people and-
Trent Horn:
Do it now before the baby gets here.
Marie Bates:
Yeah. We’ve been traveling a little bit since things have started to get a little more normal in the world. But yeah, I think when you’re dating, you have to know yourselves really well, and know what you’re capable of handling. If this is something that you just know this is your weakness, or together, it’s your weakness, and you can’t handle it, it’s not worth it.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Marie Bates:
However, it is really fun to go see new places together, and it’s really fun to go visit family, or go visit friends. We, in our first year of dating, went to England to go meet his family and friends over there, and we just booked separate rooms everywhere. I mean, it helps when you’re both really on the same page, and you’re working towards the same goal like, “This is just not something that we’re going to consider, it’s not where we are in our relationship, but we want to enjoy this other country, or this other place.”
Marie Bates:
Yeah. I think the easiest thing for us was when we were traveling in the US, it wasn’t possible when we were going back there, but we were with family for a lot of the trip anyway. But we traveled with friends a lot here, and we would just do a big Airbnb at a house, and all the girls would stay together, and all the boys would stay together.
Trent Horn:
Right. All right, here’s the next one, what’s the best way to get to know each other while you’re dating? I think one of the hazards, sometimes, that comes up with dating is, you kind of put on sort of a mask, and some people treat it like a game, it’s like, “Oh, I got to win the other person over.” And there was a time in my discerning life when I was stupid Trent, but where I’m dating it’s like, oh, I’ll just make sure there’s a trifecta of light, fire, and water, and all the… It’s like, give her… Did you seen the movie, Hitch?
Marie Bates:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. So-
Annie Barrack:
Oh, yeah.
Marie Bates:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
It’s just like, I’m going to have all these special elements. I had this CD that I would play when I would go on a first date with a girl, and it was just my girl CD, so it had music on it that almost any girl would like, like Jack Johnson, Eric Clapton, [inaudible 00:09:44]… It was just acoustic guitar.
Marie Bates:
You’re like, “This is a good way to make a first impression on a girl.
Trent Horn:
Yes.
Marie Bates:
On any girl.
Trent Horn:
It had original Jason Mraz, not when he went professional, but when he was acoustic at Java Joe’s. It was so [crosstalk 00:09:56].
Annie Barrack:
Oh, very thoughtful. Very thoughtful.
Trent Horn:
I know, but here’s the problem, I shouldn’t have led with that, because then, four dates in, I put in my real CD mix, which has a bunch of Phil Collins on it, and it’s-
Marie Bates:
I remember you like Phil Collins, I forgot about that.
Trent Horn:
Hey, I love Phil Collins, okay? Leave him alone. I should just lead with who I am. You should lead with that, and not try to… Because you’re only going to keep up the illusion so far. You want to really figure out if you are on the same page, the important values, the core values, and then the peripheral things. But what do you guys think is a good way to figure that stuff out when you’re dating?
Marie Bates:
I would say, definitely be on your best behavior, but be honest on your best behavior.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah, I agree. I also think that it’s super important to, I think, practice and just go on a lot of dates, because you don’t really realize that until after you’ve been on a bunch of dates that you’re like, “Oh, that really isn’t my thing, and I don’t feel like I know you at all, because we’re not talking about anything that I actually want to talk about.”
Marie Bates:
Yeah, that happens a lot in dating, that you spend time with somebody, and there are different ways you can spend time with somebody, talking, doing activities together, volunteering, whatever, but you can realize that you don’t have something that is really important to you, or that you just don’t connect in the way that you speak to each other, or whatever. And just be open to, you may go on 10 dates and they’re fun, but then you realize something’s not there, and that’s not wasted time. It’s good to figure that out.
Trent Horn:
Well, it’s a discernment, you’re discerning with this person, and I think it’s important to keep Christ at the center of it, so always having things like Mass, praying together, going to adoration to keep that at the center. But I also think having a variety of contexts. I mean, if it’s always dinner and a movie, or it’s always like, “I planned a super fun activity,” life isn’t a bunch of super fun activities.
Marie Bates:
Yeah.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
So, I would say, for example, like you said, volunteering. Laura and I really got to know each other while we did pro-life mission work together. And so, when you’re side-by-side doing something towards a common good together, you can see that person. Another thing is, honestly, spending time with that person in their family.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. That’s another. They’re different when they’re with their family, for sure.
Marie Bates:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
Oh, really?
Marie Bates:
Yes.
Annie Barrack:
Yes. Making sure you can get through the holidays too with their family, and experiencing that is huge.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Marie Bates:
[crosstalk 00:12:31].
Trent Horn:
Well, your fiance already spent time with your family before he met you, so-
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. So, we checked that off right at the beginning.
Marie Bates:
Yeah. You have to see them in a variety of situations. One thing I loved seeing about David in our dating, was that he was… At the beginning, I noticed, oh, he’s really generous. I don’t know, he always tips well, or he always pays for friends when we go out to dinner, whatever.
Trent Horn:
Well, the British pound is worth eight American dollars, so come on.
Marie Bates:
Right. But as time went on, it was something that he always did, and has always done. Even now that we’re married, it’s like something that we do together. And it wasn’t something that he was just doing to impress me in the beginning, it was like, he’s generous, and he’s generous all the time. And it was something that, over time, I could see was this lasting quality about him, and not something that he was just kind of putting on for show.
Trent Horn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And did you find those experiences in your dating with your… What is your fiance’s name?
Annie Barrack:
Steven.
Trent Horn:
Steven.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
So, did you see some of that with Steven, certain personality traits, like, “Oh, I’m seeing this as a constant, this is who you are, and that’s something I appreciate.”
Annie Barrack:
Yeah, absolutely. Definitely, one thing that I noticed was, he’s very dedicated to everything that he does. He does not-
Trent Horn:
Well, he’s in the-
Marie Bates:
He doesn’t do things by halves.
Annie Barrack:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
He’s in the Navy, right?
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. He’s in the Navy.
Trent Horn:
Well, of course, they have to fold the bed the right way, and they have to do 100 pushups.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. And he’s really good at everything he does too. And I’ve just seen that in every aspect of his life with his relationships, his friends, his family, but just when he’s… He loves to bake, and so if you don’t bake it exactly the right way, it’s not done as good as it could have been. One of the things I admire about him is how detail oriented he is, and I can see that in every aspect of his life, but I wouldn’t really know that unless I saw him in every aspect of his life.
Marie Bates:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I’m kind of going on, so I’m going to jump down to another question, because it’s related to this. Here’s the question that came in, “I suppose it depends on each couple, but is there a general time, one year, two years when we spend enough time together to discern if we’re meant to marry?” My answer to that is, it totally depends. I know some people who they knew after a month, and they have been married for 50 years. Some people have dated for 10 years, and they got married, and they were divorced six months later. I think there’s going to be some extremes, if it’s been a week, it’s like, “I’m going to hold off there a little bit.”
Marie Bates:
[crosstalk 00:15:10].
Trent Horn:
I don’t know if I would look at the time as much, but what are the reasons? And then, also, are you getting buy-in from people that you trust and respect? I think that’s an important thing too.
Marie Bates:
Totally.
Trent Horn:
Was that important in your guys’s discernment of marrying, the buy-in from other people?
Annie Barrack:
Oh yeah. I mean, obviously I had no idea my mom set me up with him at all.
Trent Horn:
When did you find out?
Annie Barrack:
I mean, it didn’t make sense to me when… This whole thing, how it all went down, and so I was very skeptical for a few months. And then, probably around the third month of dating, I was like, “Someone’s got to fess up because I know this doesn’t make sense.” And then, once I knew that my mom had actually set me up, I was already in love with him.
Trent Horn:
No, you want to come in? Your mom is outside here.
Annie Barrack:
Oh, my gosh.
Trent Horn:
There she is.
Marie Bates:
She’s listening.
Trent Horn:
She’s right on the outside. I’m going to… Let’s see. I can’t turn the cameras in the studio around, but I’ll try to edit this in here, I got it on my camera. Hello, Donna.
Marie Bates:
The good lady herself.
Trent Horn:
Good wingwoman right there. I love it. So, eventually, you found that out, but what’s funny is, with your story, that sounds like the plot to every romantic comedy, that’s in the end of… Midway through the third act, you’re like, “You only asked me out, because my mom set you up.” And then, you separate, and then there’s a big romantic gesture to come back together, but yeah. So, let’s go back to the time factor. I would say it really depends on the reasons. I think though experiencing… Because you also have to factor in engagement with that. Even when you’re engaged… I mean, we’re all crossing fingers for you, but it’s not 100%.
Marie Bates:
No.
Annie Barrack:
Oh, yeah. Totally.
Marie Bates:
Till the day. Yeah.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
I worked in the Office of Marriage and Respect Life for the Diocese of Phoenix, so I also handled all the logistics for the marriage preparation classes, and I did have to send a few refunds to engaged people who broke off their engagements. But that’s way better. That’s way better to break off your engagement than to get married and realize you’ve got some serious issues going on in your marriage.
Marie Bates:
Absolutely.
Trent Horn:
Or to find out the marriage is invalid even.
Marie Bates:
Yeah. As far as the time thing, I think that there’s definitely… As Trent said, there’s not a hard answer on it, I think it is different for every couple. I will say there are some kind of… And maybe these are just common sense, but there’re kind of some reasonable boundaries though that you can have with time. As you said, a week is… I’m sorry, that’s too short for anyone, we’re not being honest.
Trent Horn:
This isn’t frozen.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Even Elsa knew that that was too short.
Marie Bates:
You cannot see this person enough and enough of them in one week to make a lifelong decision based on that. At the same time, I think dating for years, and years, and years is not healthy either, especially if you’re trying to live a chaste Catholic dating relationship. And at some point, you need to make a decision. You can’t know this person your whole life, and then decide to spend the rest of your life with them, you-
Trent Horn:
It has been tragic. I knew a girl, she dated the same guy for 10 years, and then he just broke up with her one day. And what’s sad is that during those 10 years, she is off the market to meet a good Catholic guy. Because this is not like the movies, it’s not like the good guy could swoop in and be like, “You should marry me instead.” Because the girl should be like, “I have a boyfriend, he’s terrible to me, but he’s my boyfriend.” And so, she has missed by being invested for 10 years with this guy. For me, I mean, I’m not kind of too fixed, but I feel like after a year, you kind of know, or you don’t.
Marie Bates:
Yeah. David and I have talked about it before, I think after six months, you have an idea, a strong idea. I think in most of my relationships, by six months, I’ve known for sure if I want to break up with someone. I might not be sure if I want to marry them yet, but I’m at least leaning that way, if I am continuing to date them at that point. And then, yeah, by a year, you know if you love this person, you know if you’re down to go through anything with them.
Trent Horn:
And if you know it’s not right, you just have to let the person go. I think the worst is when people are like, “Well, this person isn’t right, maybe they’ll break up with me, and then it will be easy.”
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. And that’s not fair to them. That is so not fair to them, especially if you know, because then you can give them those 10 years back.
Marie Bates:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
And then, they can find someone who is right for them. All right. Lightning round on this one. How long did it take before you knew that this was the person you would want to marry? So, I will start-
Marie Bates:
Oh my God.
Trent Horn:
I will say three days for Laura, because she made me laugh. We were driving together once, and she did an impersonation of somebody, and it got me to just have a huge belly laugh, and I was like, “This is the one.” I mean, not three days, I’m being a bit facetious here, but I had that initial feeling, I guess, after a few months, but I’m just super like Obi-Wan Kenobi, “Your feelings can betray you, don’t trust them.” That’s more Yoda. It didn’t take that long, but I always was worried my feelings were going to betray me. But I knew pretty soon, but I was still keeping them at arms length. I don’t know about you guys.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Marie Bates:
What was yours, Annie?
Annie Barrack:
I feel like, for me, I definitely was ready, I knew three months exactly, because my dad said, “If you guys are still dating at three months, then you’re getting married.”
Marie Bates:
Oh my gosh.
Annie Barrack:
And I’m just like, “Okay. So, I just have to wait till three months, and if we’re still there, then I’m done.”
Trent Horn:
Your parents just really wanted to push you out, like, “Can you just take her off our hands?”
Annie Barrack:
Yeah, honestly.
Marie Bates:
Your feelings actually matched up with what he had said, that kind of timeframe.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. Honestly, before that, I definitely was set, but I didn’t, similar to you, want to put everything into this when it’s only been a month, or whatever. But I was set at three months.
Marie Bates:
Yeah. Mine was four months. I knew at four months that I loved him, and I knew that I would like to marry him. I don’t know what David would say. I think he took a little longer. I think we both saw the potential for it at the beginning, for sure.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. Alrighty. Let’s go to… Let’s see here. One last one on dating, then I want to jump into a few things on marriage. “I find that advice tips from Catholic speakers are usually very limited, it’s always on purity and chastity. I know these things are important, but how do you learn about preparing useful skills for marriage?” And this is a good segue into the marriage questions. “How do you develop skills related to communication, trust, financials, conflict resolution?” How about Marie? Let’s start with you because you’ve gone from dating into marriage.
Marie Bates:
Sure.
Trent Horn:
How have you guys grown? Because you’re right in marriage prep… No, I think chastity is important because a lot of people are not living chase lives. That’s a serious matter. But also to have a healthy marriage, communication, finance, conflict, how have you guys grown and learned to grow in those areas?
Marie Bates:
Well in dating, we both went to therapy at different times for different reasons, and that was helpful. One of the things that… I was going through a lot of stuff personally that I probably should have worked through before I started dating him, but he recommended to me at one point, “You could see a therapist.” And it taught me something about relationships, which is that everything that you need to tell to a therapist is not everything that you need to put on your spouse, or your significant other, they’re not your therapist. You can be open and honest with them, and obviously share your life with them, but don’t treat them like they’re a therapist. It’s not a nice way to be. So, anyway, that was really helpful for us at different times when we had communication issues, or things, talking about it in therapy actually really helped.
Marie Bates:
And then, I would say, in marriage prep, which Annie is probably experiencing right now, we had a wonderful priest prepare us, he was Trent’s priest at the time too. And he gave us a great book on finances, and a really good book on just understanding what marriage really is. And it’s not good to just focus on the chastity aspect of it, because there’s so much more that you need to master in order to have a happy, peaceful marriage with someone. So, yeah, figuring out how to do a budget, figuring out our finances, reading through that, and having great conversations about that together, doing planning.
Marie Bates:
And then, just realizing that the mindset that we had towards marriage had to be always about the other, and that we’re entering into a sacrificial relationship where we are going to put the other first, and in putting the other first, we’ll always have our own needs taken care of also.
Trent Horn:
Right. So, Annie, how have you been navigating? You’re in the middle of marriage prep right now, are you having big conversations about these kind of issues?
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. Well, my fiance is actually on deployment right now, so we’ll be picking that up in a few weeks actually, he’ll be back.
Marie Bates:
Oh, great.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Annie Barrack:
But before he left, we had this huge question and answer form, and it had all the questions like, where do you see yourself financially in 10 years?
Trent Horn:
Oh, was that the big survey you take down at the parish office? Was that something the church gave you?
Annie Barrack:
Actually, his parents gave it to us before we got engaged, because we were… I mean, we were talking about it, everybody knew we were talking about it, and they wanted to make sure that we weren’t going to have any huge disagreements down the line. So, we went through that whole thing before he left, and it was super helpful. It turns out, we were on the same page for pretty much everything, which is great.
Trent Horn:
Oh, good.
Annie Barrack:
Clearly, my parents are very involved in my relationship, so they are a huge resource for us too. And they’re a great example of what a Catholic marriage should look like, so [crosstalk 00:25:44].
Trent Horn:
Yeah. I would recommend… For people listening, one book is called The Temperament God Gave Your Spouse, because for Laura and I… And I’ve said this on the show before, I’m very introverted, analytic, melancholic, can easily be in despair. Laura is the social butterfly sanguine, extroverted. And so, we help, we balance each other out well, but you have to understand what your spouse, or your fiance needs based on their temperaments. Budget, I think is huge. A lot of people… I feel like if you’re not on the same page financially, the things that are normal stresses in marriage, having a baby, or living together, or navigating things, if you’re financially stressed, it adds a huge burden to make the other things hard. But if you take away financial stress, you have more energy to focus on these things.
Trent Horn:
So, talking about… Yeah. And Laura and I had to do this, what are we doing about retirement? What do we feel about spending? Suddenly now, when you’re married, it’s like… When I was dating, I used to buy Laura all these… That’s one thing I missed about dating. One thing I missed, is I could just buy Laura an extravagant gift, that’s like, “Oh my gosh, thank you. That’s so nice.” Now, it’s like, “Where did this come from? Which envelope?”
Marie Bates:
It’s like, “I hope you sold another book to get me this gift, Trent.”
Trent Horn:
And even then, “Why isn’t it in the 401(k)? We could have [inaudible 00:27:04].” So then, you’re married, it goes in that way. So, I like Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University. The other thing I talk about too nowadays is, you got to be upfront about your debts.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Marie Bates:
Yeah, absolutely.
Trent Horn:
Because that’s a big thing you’re bringing into marriage.
Marie Bates:
People think you just have to be honest about past relationships, or your life in general, but that includes your debts, and what you’re bringing into-
Annie Barrack:
And your spending habits. Because if going to Starbucks every day or whatever… Getting coffee every day is your thing, but they’re like, “Oh, I don’t want you spending money on that.” Little things too, it’s important to be honest about it.
Marie Bates:
Totally. And it’s good if you happen to both be budget-minded in the same way or whatever, but often, people have differences, so yeah. It’s not the end of the world, but you have to work out what you’re going to accept.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Marie Bates:
Actually we did do a book called 101 Questions to Ask Before Getting Engaged that we did… Or Before Getting Married. One of those, before we got engaged, your list of questions. Some of them are so stupid. If you haven’t talked about them before, I don’t know what you’re doing. The last question of the book was, “Have you had any previous marriages?” It’s like, if you haven’t told somebody-
Trent Horn:
That was 101?
Marie Bates:
Yeah.
Trent Horn:
I’d probably make that one.
Marie Bates:
Yeah. It’s like, if you haven’t told somebody that you’ve been married before, then there’s something wrong here. But a lot of the questions were good, and they were just conversation starters to get you going.
Trent Horn:
Question number one is, is this your real name? Are you a fugitive from justice?
Marie Bates:
It’s like, should I do a background check on you?
Trent Horn:
Right. Let’s go to a few more here on marriage. Here’s one, “Should we talk more about miscarriages, and pregnancy loss in marriage?” So, I don’t know what your [inaudible 00:29:01] thoughts on that.
Marie Bates:
I would say, absolutely, yes. We lost a baby in the fall… Actually, I saw Annie the day that we lost our baby, which is just a crazy coincidence, but we were both on a trip, and we ran into each other. And I felt like my whole life growing… Up until that point, I just thought, miscarriage and all of that, it’s really taboo, you don’t tell anybody, it’s a private thing. But we really needed our family and friends. It was really devastating, and we wanted that support, we wanted people to pray for our baby, we wanted people to pray for us. And so, we ended up sharing it… Not with the whole world, but we ended up sharing it with all of the people who are close to us, and it was really helpful. I mean, you need community at a time like that, I think.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. I agree. I mean, I’ve obviously never experienced that, but I couldn’t imagine not having the support from my family, or from my friends. That must have been hard to-
Trent Horn:
Do you think it’s helpful for you now, Annie, to see other people going through this, and being prepared for it? Because it’s not statistically unlikely for you yourself to face that in marriage.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. I mean, that’s something that’s really scary actually. And to see somebody get through it, and have success in other… You’re pregnant right now, and everything’s going great. So, to just know that it’s not the… I mean, it’s devastating, but you can move past it, it’s huge.
Trent Horn:
And I think that goes to a bigger thing, whether it’s when we are married, or when we’re preparing for marriage, it’s, remember, the vows are for better or for worse. And I think another good book I’d recommend is by Greg Popcak, it’s called When Divorce is Not an Option, because I think a lot of [inaudible 00:30:57] have a mistaken view, in the stage where Annie’s in right now, like, “Okay. The best way to not get divorced is marry the… If I could just figure it out right, and marry Mr. Perfect Navy man, or Mr. Perfect British man, or Mr. Perfect British Navy man, in the majesty service, the archetypal perfect man, then it would be fine.”
Trent Horn:
But we’re all human. Now that gives you an edge, when you don’t marry someone you severely mismatched, you’ll have problems. But I can tell, and I’ve been… Well, how long have you guys been married now?
Marie Bates:
It’s been nine or 10 months. Yeah.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. So, we’ve been married for… This May, it’ll be eight years. And then, other people, it’s always hard. It’s like, it feels long, and we want to shoot for the 50 or 60 years. But to know, throughout the way, you’re going to hit different trials based on where you’re at, and you’re growing through them, whether it’s pregnancy loss, or anything else.
Trent Horn:
Let’s try another one here. “Hi, Trent…” Ooh, this is the Catholic honeymoon dilemma. The Catholic honeymoon dilemma. “Getting married in a month, we’re [inaudible 00:32:08] charting, we’re pretty sure we’ll be around peak fertility during our wedding night and honeymoon. We are open to life from the start. My fiance is worried about her family, we get a lot of comments from them like, ‘NFP doesn’t work.’ How would you advise us to talk about, or approach this? We don’t see NFP as something that works, or doesn’t work, but our family members don’t see it that way.” And that is a legitimate thing that-
Marie Bates:
Oh, God, bless this-
Trent Horn:
… Catholic couples… Because Catholics, obviously, contraception is sinful, but God gave us brains to know when couples are fertile or infertile. And so, you can space your births for just reasons. The question is though, what do you do when it comes to, “Oh, we’re fertile, do we want a space a birth and give ourselves some time in marriage, or not?” How did you guys look at this?
Marie Bates:
For medical reasons, we needed two months at the beginning of our marriage that my doctor said, “Please do not get pregnant in this time.” And I have a Catholic doctor and stuff.
Trent Horn:
Oh, wow.
Marie Bates:
And that was fine. And so, we actually faced the same dilemma, we weren’t sure… We learned how to do NFP, and we weren’t sure. So, you can always hold off being together until a week later, or whatever you need to do. But I would say, as far as approaching family and friends who think that NFP doesn’t work, it’s funny because they think it doesn’t work because people have children, but that’s such an illness in our world today, that you look at a family that has-
Trent Horn:
It’s horrid.
Marie Bates:
… multiple children, and you think, they’re doing something wrong.
Trent Horn:
I have an in-law who went to a restaurant, and had five children, and a guy there said, “You have too many children.” I was like, “Who would say something like… I mean, this person must be [crosstalk 00:34:11].”
Marie Bates:
It’s like, “Which one do you want us to send back?”
Trent Horn:
Mine is like, “Oh really? Because I think they’re all paying for your social security, you monster.” But it’s a great witness. But I think then for people to think like, “Oh, what if you get pregnant on your honeymoon?” Well, what if? That could be really good. So, I don’t know. What do you think about facing that as a couple?
Annie Barrack:
Well, I mean, when you say, “I do,” on the altar, you’re saying that you’re willing and accepting of any children you have, and so I think you just… If you’re postponing, then you have to be respectful of the NFP, whatever you do to postpone.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Annie Barrack:
But if you’re not, then just… I mean, it’s okay to have babies.
Trent Horn:
Yeah. Be open to God’s will.
Annie Barrack:
It’s okay.
Trent Horn:
I’ll tell you what happened with us, I think we basically said, “You know what? Up to God’s will. And if we have a baby-”
Marie Bates:
[crosstalk 00:35:07].
Trent Horn:
… right there… Because always growing up with chastity messages, I thought people got pregnant of a guy, like look at them. Like, “Oh.” [inaudible 00:35:18] always worry, like, “Oh, I’m not… Ooh.” And so, I thought, in marriage, you see Catholic families, and it’s like, “Well, I guess we’re going to have 15 kids, because that’s how it works.” And then, it took a year for us to get pregnant, we actually struggled with that. And then, with tertiary infertility after our second child. I think something else for marriage prep is to say, “Yeah, chastity is super important, but we could use a little…” I mean, priests get four years of training to be a priest, and we’re like, “We need to go to these two classes,” then you’re ready to get married.
Marie Bates:
Yeah.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Marie Bates:
That is something we’ve learned. You really do not know how your family growing is going to look, and how it’s going to go, and that’s okay. But NFP does work. As the couple said, you can use it to successfully have a baby, which is one of the hardest things for even just in the secular world, lots of women struggle with… Or couples struggle with infertility, and what a beautiful thing to be able to actually learn your cycle, and aid you and your husband in being able to have a child, so many people struggle with that. So, be proud [crosstalk 00:36:32] and just have your babies.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:36:34].
Trent Horn:
People say NFP doesn’t work, they’re like, “Dieting doesn’t work.” I tried dieting, and I went to in and out a bunch, and it’s like, “Well, no, you stopped dieting.” Or you’re like, “Exercise doesn’t work.” “Well, you haven’t gone jogging for a month.” So, with NFP, like, “NFP doesn’t work. We stopped charting and counting.” I’m like, “Well, then, you’re not doing the method anymore.” Here’s the last question. “What do you see as the biggest threat to a healthy marriage, or relationship, either marriage or engagement, dating, what’s the biggest threat to the relationship, and how do you ward it off?”
Marie Bates:
We just talked about this the other day. I think that… I mean, we haven’t been married too long, but it seems we have known a lot of people who’ve been married a long time, and the most peaceful marriages we’ve seen, and the ones that seem to be the most successful, are the ones where they’ve kept really good communication throughout, and never stopped checking in on the other person, and making sure that you’re always working as a team. The ones that haven’t done so well, whether or not they’re still married, they kind of stopped talking to each other, and stopped seeing how the other person is doing, or seeing what they were thinking about what’s going on. I mean, good communication is a result of a lot of things, praying together, checking in on each other, going on dates, all of that kind of stuff, but yeah.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah. I mean, I would say, in my own life, and also witnessing my parents, and other couples, our relationship is so much stronger when we are prayerful, and keeping that at the center of our life, because when we kind of let that go, because we’re lazy, or we just don’t have the time, or whatever it is, everything else seems to fall apart. So, keeping that as a priority, and not as a benefit, or something extra, is huge for us, at least.
Trent Horn:
Alrighty. Yeah. I would say, falling into a routine, a drudgery routine, like, “Oh…” It’s more of a temptation in marriage than before marriage. I think the temptation before marriage is to think, “Oh, marriage will fix my problems, so I’m not going to confront them right now.” Marriage, I see as something more… It just magnifies what’s already there. So, if you have got great stuff, that’s magnified. If you’ve got bad stuff-
Marie Bates:
Puts a spotlight on it. Yeah.
Trent Horn:
So, then, in marriage, falling into just routine, like marriage is your nine-to-five, then the devil works his way in there. So, prayer, frequent reception of the sacraments, confession. But I think even yet, getting spiritual direction, and seeing counseling.
Marie Bates:
Yeah, absolutely.
Trent Horn:
Counseling is not something you need to wait to until you’re Retrouvaille-
Annie Barrack:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
The ministry for marriages that are on the rocks. I always feel bad, I can always spot that brochure in the vestibule that has the yelling couple, they’re yelling at each other, I’m like, “Oh, Retrouvaille.” But strengthening your marriage before all that.
Annie Barrack:
Yeah.
Marie Bates:
Yeah. You can see a counselor together or separately after three months of realizing you’re not communicating well about something, and you just want to communicate about it better. You’re not even angry at that point, you’re just like, “We said we were going to set a budget about our food, and we haven’t done a good job of it. I don’t know how to do it better. Let’s talk to somebody for one session and see if we can figure it out.” And then, you don’t have whatever financial stressor is going to come down the line from the continuation of that habit, or whatever.
Trent Horn:
Right. Well, thank you, ladies, for both joining me. I’ll ask our listeners to pray for you. Pray for Annie as you discern your engagement. What’s your date? Your-
Annie Barrack:
November 6th.
Trent Horn:
November 6th.
Marie Bates:
Yay.
Trent Horn:
All right. So, we’ll pray for your upcoming marriage. And what is your due date?
Marie Bates:
September 9th.
Trent Horn:
September 9th. And we’ll pray for the birth of little baby British David. I’m so happy. Thank you both for being here today on the Counsel of Trent.
Marie Bates:
Thanks for having us.
Annie Barrack:
Thank you so much.
Marie Bates:
Thank you.
Trent Horn:
And thank you guys for listening, I hope you’ll check out more of our great content at trenthornpodcast.com.
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