Some scientists claim there is no such thing as porn addiction, but in this episode Trent Horn and Matt Fradd set the record straight and offer resources for those who want to break free of the sin of pornography.
Welcome to the Council of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent:
Welcome to the Council of Trent podcast with super fancy digs because we’re here in Steubenville, Ohio, recording in the Pints with Aquinas studio. We were joking last night people get that wrong. It’s not Pints for Aquinas, it’s Pints with Aquinas. And it’s an interview with the host of Pints with Aquinas, Mr. Matt Fradd.
Matt Fradd:
Thank you for having me on your wonderful podcast.
Trent:
Well thank you…
Matt Fradd:
For providing the equipment.
Trent:
For providing the one row of equipment, lights, set up here. One day, I will transform my closet to look more like your excellent studio here. But no, it’s great. We actually just finished recording a two hour interview, for Pints with Aquinas. You called me the apologetics ninja. Now I’m worried that someone’s going to challenge me with I will take your honor. Or someone’s going to be, you know now that I think about it, maybe you should have said apologetic samurai. Because ninja are like criminals, I think.
Matt Fradd:
Oh, okay.
Trent:
Ninja is like a criminal…
Matt Fradd:
That might be cultural appropriation. I’m not sure.
Trent:
What if I just showed up apologetics ninja but I’m dressed like complete samurai kimono…
Matt Fradd:
With a mask on.
Trent:
Yeah. Right. So yeah. So I thought it’d be cool since we were here, I wanted to chat with you, on Council Trent we want to edify people, build them up in a lot of different areas. I know before you did Pints with Aquinas, I feel so bad, people were like not Fradd the porn guy. Please don’t call me the porn guy.
Matt Fradd:
Yeah, I don’t actually mind being called the porn guy. I love speaking on this topic and I’ve written books on the topic, as you know. And I don’t travel as much as I used to, but whenever I get to travel and speak at a high school, I just love speaking to teens about this issue. So I’m still super passionate about it.
Trent:
Well, no, it’s huge. And I’m glad that you did and still do speak about it because it’s sort of an evil whose name you can’t raise. It’s kind of like abortion, abortion is bad. And we need to fight pornography, but it’s like, oh, well. Because when you look in a parish, the odds of people there secretly being involved with the abortion industry are actually probably pretty low, at least currently. Some people might have had abortions in the past. But odds are you, you talk about it in church, no one is currently involved in the abortion industry usually. Pretty low. But the percentage of people who are involved in the pornography industry, even being a consumer of it, is distressingly much higher.
Matt Fradd:
What’s interesting is when I started doing this work, I started working at Catholic Answers back in 2012 and I was really passionate about speaking on pornography. And of course, Jason Everett was working with Catholic Answers when I joined and he would travel and give chastity talks. And so when they were trying to get me out to speak at high schools, I wanted to speak just on pornography, and the response was crickets. It was no, please, please don’t. You’re the cheaper Jason Everett, just give a moderately good chastity talk, incorporate the topic of pornography, but basically just give a chastity talk like Jason’s. And Jason’s brilliant, you can’t replicate what he does, but I did my best. But it’s been interesting to see since I did that in 2012, I would say three years later, maybe four, I couldn’t keep up with the demand of schools and universities who wanted me to speak specifically on pornography. So it was a cultural shift that occurred at some point between then and now.
Trent:
No, it’s huge. And I think, thankfully, people, even people who are not religious, are starting to see this is… Well, we’ve born fruit. We’ve now had access to high-speed internet and videos for 20-25 years. So we’ve got a large data set of what it does to you, especially men. And people are not liking the results. Even non-religious people.
Matt Fradd:
Kanye West spoke against it. James Hetfield, lead singer of Metallica, narrated an anti-porn documentary. Terry Crews has spoken about his own struggles. Chris Rock, in a standup routine, mentioned in a sort of offhand way that porn led to his divorce. But in another interview, he said he’s getting help and he’s a lot healthier. So it’s almost as the studies begin to pile higher and higher, we realize we can’t keep just pretending that this is a religious issue.
Trent:
Right. People see that it really does stuff to your brain. And it’s so funny, people want to treat sex like it’s not a big deal. But when there’s a sex scandal, it suddenly becomes a big deal. We understand that. What I want to talk about today, though, when it comes to arguments for the faith, things like that, there are some academics, Academics with quotation marks. There are people who may try to argue that there’s no such thing as sex addiction. And there’s some people, even qualifying what that term means. I think Nicole Prause is one of these individuals and others.
Matt Fradd:
She’s gone off to me repeatedly on Twitter. I have to ignore her. Bless her.
Trent:
But I mean they are obsessed with the idea to try to say there’s nothing wrong with pornography. No one’s ever really addicted to pornography. The only problem is if you have outdated religious views that cause you grief when it comes to porn. But otherwise there’s no such thing as sex addiction. What is wrong with the arguments they’re making?
Matt Fradd:
Okay. So we used to think, I say we, I mean, you’re a scientist, that in order for something to be addictive, it had to be a substance that you brought into your body – nicotine, alcohol, forms of medication. Since neuroscientists started looking into the brain, it’s changed how we understand addiction. We now know that behaviors can be just as addictive as substances can. In the DSM-5, put out by the American Psychiatric Association, they recognize pathological gambling would come under the heading addiction. So we reckon nothing is ingested, nothing’s injected, and yet we see this can be addictive. Today, as far as I’m aware, we have 56 neurological studies on porn users and every one of them, except one, so 55 of the 56 neuroscience science-based studies, lends strong support for the addiction model. And what that means is the findings of those studies mirror studies done on substance abuse.
Matt Fradd:
So I understand people’s hesitancy, even Christians’ hesitancy, to maybe embrace the term addiction. Sometimes it feels like people are just making excuses for their behavior and they’re a victim now, they have more control than they’re willing to admit. And all that might be true, but just because a term can be abused, it doesn’t mean it can’t be used correctly. And I think most Christians, if you were to say to them, I understand maybe you and I don’t really know what an addiction means, so maybe we can’t even agree on that term. But would you agree that drug addiction messes a person’s brain up or could, and that if we were to do say an fMRI scan on that brain, that that brain would look different to say a healthy brain. I think most people would say sure, even if I’m not really sure what that means or how to read a scan, I would say yes. So what we’re saying here is these 55 neuroscience-based studies show the same thing or very similar things.
Trent:
Right. And I think this is helpful because actually for a long time, I did not embrace the label of porn being an addiction because I had a very narrow view of addiction, even narrower than just a substance. I thought really something is only an addiction if you suffered life-threatening physical withdrawals. For me, I narrowed addiction so much that you could be addicted to drinking, but not smoking. If I was to be consistent, I’d have to say because nobody’s going to die not smoking a cigarette. But you can die if you’re just taken off alcohol too quickly. If you don’t go to certain clinics, things like that. But I think others might say even if you use the word addiction, maybe you could use the word compulsion. But I think your brain changes, and you’re right, doesn’t have to be a substance.
Trent:
If somebody goes to a casino, and what is it, they’re looking at lights on a screen. They sit in front of a slot machine for 18 hours. What they want is they’re pushing a button and seeing certain lights in front of them. And they get a high when it’s three bars and they get a low when it’s not. And so we think what does someone who has a compulsion or addiction to pornography do? They click a button, they see an image, it gives them a high. And then let’s say they go back to porn and they see the old image, they get kind of a low such as I already saw that. And so it starts to do that re-wiring you’re talking about.
Matt Fradd:
Nicole Prause has two studies, both of which weren’t invasive, they’re not like an fMRI. They basically put pads around the brain, I’m forgetting the name of that scan, but they’re not terribly efficient. But here’s how she tries to say pornography is not addictive. She said if you show a crack addict, say an instrument of their addiction – white powder or a pipe or something like that – they’ll have a spike EEG, electroencephalogram. But she says when you show a supposed porn addict vanilla porn, like something that’s not too risque, you actually don’t see that same spike. So what’s funny is she concluded from that, therefore porn is not addictive. But some of the top neuroscientists in the world reviewed her data and said we have no problem with your data but it actually proves porn addiction. First of all, you’re not showing something surrounding the drug, you’re showing the drug itself. Secondly, the fact that there wasn’t a spike is actually showing that people can become desensitized to pornography. So it actually shows the opposite of what she’s trying to show.
Trent:
That’s not a good comparison because especially either a crack pipe, that is the direct instrument, or the actual crack cocaine powder, that’s the thing you want. So it would be better if, most people who are addicted are past soft core, they want the hardcore stuff. I’ll leave some links in the description below by the way of this video if you want more resources on the arguments and the studies that show this. And so I think that’s helpful, though I do think, Matt, part of it that it’s a bias from a moral perspective, I think trying to defend this. I mean, there’s no way around this. If this was some other thing they didn’t like such as religion or something, I’m sure they’d even be willing to say you could be addicted to religion or this and that.
Trent:
Or I’ll tell you the problem. I think a lot of them say an addiction occurs when you do something and it inhibits a healthy life. So you’re addicted to gambling, if you bet your house. You’re addicted to alcohol, if you can’t hold a job, you’re drunk all the time. But I’m sure someone like Prause would say you could look at pornography every night…
Matt Fradd:
And it will enhance your life.
Trent:
It’ll enhance your life. And pornography doesn’t inhibit your life like these other substances or gambling would. And then I would say what about the husbands? The fact that let’s say a husband is looking at pornography, does that not inhibit his ability to have a healthy marriage with his wife? I think Prause and those would say maybe she should just realize it’s not a big deal.
Matt Fradd:
Right. So it does. And in my book, The Porn Myth, I lay all this out. There are over 70 studies that show a correlation between porn use and sexual dissatisfaction. There are over 40 studies that show a correlation between porn use and sexual dysfunction, like premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction. Twelve of those 40 studies show causation because the one thing that was removed, namely pornography, they removed that and these people regained their sexual functioning.
Trent:
Right. I want to know what you think of this argument. Someone says porn isn’t harmful. I say if it’s not harmful, why is it a crime to show it to children? Well, children can’t consent. Children can’t consent to buying a house, but I won’t go to prison if I show them my loan application. If I show them the house I bought. Yeah, children can’t consent to this, but I’m not asking them, they’re not doing it, they’re watching the stuff.
Trent:
But clearly we would say it’s not harmful, but yet it’s a crime to show it to a child. In fact, it’s a crime to show pornography to someone who doesn’t want to see it. That’s sexual harassment. If you’re in a workplace and you’re just showing it on your computer to people who don’t want to see that, you can get fired. So clearly there is something that it can, it can inhibit your life. So let’s draw it together a little bit. If someone does feel like they’re addicted to pornography, they’ve tried to give this up, they feel like they’re trapped, what are resources you’d recommend?
Matt Fradd:
So I think the three big things that I would point people to is to go find a certified sex addiction therapist – cast. If you were just to type in csat in my area, that would be a good idea. Going to a good SA group in your area is a good idea. Now, often people have objections to this. They say if I go to an SA addiction, maybe I’ll see someone who’ll know me, but I say you’ll also see them. It’s really okay. And then maybe spiritual direction. Those would be the three big things.
Matt Fradd:
As far as small things, I would say, get my book, The Porn Myth. A hundred percent of the royalties go to help sex traffic victims in San Diego, actually Children of the immaculate Heart, they get all the royalties to that whether you get the ebook or the audible book or whatever. I also have a 21 day course for men called strive21.com. It’s a 21 day detox from porn course. If you’re a woman struggling with pornography, check out my friend’s website, magdalaministries.org, because there you’re going to find a supportive group of women who are all trying to overcome sexual sin together, like pornography and masturbation.
Trent:
Tell us a little bit about Covenant Eyes because you used to work for them and they have something that I think is superior to filter technology. Just blocking websites a lot of times doesn’t work, the willpower for it. But they have something that I think is a little better than that.
Matt Fradd:
Yeah. So most free filters will have a black list of URLs. Covenant Eyes actually goes into the page, not just to scan the text, but they even now have image recognition software. So as you’re using Covenant Eyes, they’ll take these low res picks every now and again and if it’s flagged as pornography, your accountability partner will get an email.
Trent:
So, that’s the difference. The accountability partner, than just a filter.
Matt Fradd:
Yeah, so filtering blocks the bad stuff. Accountability gives someone you trust a report of your online activity. And why this I think is superior is because it connects you into relationship. It’s not just blocking, it’s helping you have an outside of the internet conversation with a friend or a loved one. So you go to any websites you shouldn’t, your accountability partner will get a report by email every week, every two weeks, once a month, you get to decide the frequency. And I just think that’s really neat. I mean, if you knew put it this way, I often think this, because I do often think we have more self-control than we’re willing to admit.
Matt Fradd:
If you knew that you were being filmed like Truman was in the Truman show 24 hours a day, how long would it take before you would be I just can’t help it anymore. I’ve got to do it. You’d probably have more self-control than you’re willing to admit. And Covenant Eyes helps that because it brings this dark stuff into the light. I’m a big fan of it and I don’t think parents should be giving their children any access to technology unless they have Covenant Eyes or something similar on all their devices. If you’re not willing to monitor it, you should not provide it. I think that’s the thing we should keep in mind.
Trent:
Amen to that. Well, thank you so much, Matt, for being on Council of Trent podcasts, and for letting us use your awesome studio.
Matt Fradd:
Indeed. Great to be with you.
Trent:
Very good. Thank you guys for listening. Definitely be sure to like this video, subscribe to the channel, go to Pints with Aquinas, subscribe there. Check out my interview that I did on Pints with Aquinas. That was a ton of fun. And if you go there, you’ll be able to get a discount code for this…
Matt Fradd:
Summa Contra Gentiles. Yeah, all of August. If you go to St. Paul Center, stpaulcenter.com, go to books, go to Aquinas Institute. You can get any Aquinas work you want. And for this month and the month of August, you’ll get 40% off by using the coupon code Pints for Zero. Pretty cool.
Trent:
All right. Thank you so much, Matt. And thank you all for watching. I hope you all have a very blessed day.
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