In this episode Trent shares his appearance on the “Let’s talk about it” podcast where he discusses with Jacque (a Catholic) and Megan (a Protestant) on how Christians can better discuss their different theologies with one another.
Welcome to the Council of Trent podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
So I’m a big supporter of Catholics and non-Catholics sitting down and having civil dialogue with one another, and that’s why I’m really excited about today’s episode. So welcome to the Council of Trent podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers’ apologist and speaker, Trent Horn. And a few months ago, I was invited on to the, Let’s Talk About It podcast, which is hosted by Jacque Anderson and Megan Bloedel. So Jacque is Catholic and Megan is Protestant, they talk about a lot of different subjects, but one recurring subject they discuss are the differences between Catholics and Protestants. And Jacque and Megan do a really good job of civilly agreeing and disagreeing with one another. So I was really excited to see this because there’s not a lot of podcasts where you have hosts that differ on substantial issues like these but engage in civil dialogue with one another.
Trent Horn:
So it was a real treat to be on their podcast and I would definitely recommend that you go and check it out. I’ll leave links to it in the description below. But without further ado, here’s my appearance on Jacque and Megan’s podcast where I talk about how Catholics and Protestants can bridge the divide and have better conversations with one another.
Jacque Anderson:
So as you interact obviously with Capturing Christianity and Cameron and that group and you working with Catholic Answers and all of this, you’ve had a lot of experience just with talking to a lot of different types of Christians across the Christian tradition.
Trent Horn:
Sure.
Jacque Anderson:
So what have you found to be points that really unite us as Christians? Because we can talk about differences all day long, but what have you found to really unite us?
Trent Horn:
Well, we need each other because the culture as a whole has turned against the historic Christian faith. Gallup I think recently released a poll saying that only 47% of Americans identify as Christian or go to church. I know that the poll recently came out saying that … Excuse me, sorry. I’m a little bit under the weather because I have three kids and they keep me up through all hours of the night. So when you’re up all night, I’m sure it’s because you guys are having, when you’re young, you have those late night conversations with people or have adventures, for me, it’s just people are crying and always someone has to … Our nine month old, with babies, babies are cute until they aren’t. It’s a good thing they’re cute or they would be dead, because what babies do is when they learn a new skill, they like to practice it in the middle of the night, and they get upset about it. So our baby will flip over onto his back like a turtle and can’t get back on his front.
Jacque Anderson:
Oh, no.
Trent Horn:
And he’ll do that all night and it’s wonderful, it’s great.
Jacque Anderson:
It’s great.
Trent Horn:
So we need each other because the majority of people in this culture either are not Christian or they’re Christian in name only, they don’t believe in the necessity of salvation by grace, they don’t believe in hell. I would say a majority of our culture believes there’s nothing wrong with abortion, at least abortion in some cases. So the percent of our culture that believes that it’s wrong to kill children through abortion is very, very low, those who embrace homosexuality or transgender ideology very high. So I would say that the big thing here is that we really do need each other and what unites us is more fundamental than what divides us. What divides us is important, and we do need to talk about it, but what unites us, our belief in one God who is a trinity of three coequal and coeternal persons, the son who became incarnate for the sake of our salvation, died, atoned for our sins, rose from the dead. And we believe these are the essential things, they are the core of our faith. And so it’s good that we’re united in these core elements.
Trent Horn:
The other things are important, it’s not that they’re not important, they’re just not as fundamental as the things that unite us. And it’s important for us to work together to help turn a culture around from its embrace of secularism and all the other isms.
Jacque Anderson:
I totally agree, especially with the abortion issue. I don’t know if you mentioned this, but Megan and I both work in pro-life work.
Trent Horn:
Oh, good.
Jacque Anderson:
And yes, we work together, that’s how we met. But the amount of Catholics at the Catholic churches that we go to, to promote our organization that aren’t pro-life and just totally reject that teaching of not just Catholicism but Christianity as a whole is super disturbing and it’s something that Megan and I have united a lot on even though I’m Catholic and she’s Protestant. I think we found in our own friendship just the similarities we have.
Trent Horn:
It’s very true. In fact, many of my conversations, my in depth conversations of Protestant friends were based in the friendships I had when I did pro-life missionary work. I did that after I graduated college in 2007, after that I traveled the country for a few years doing pro-life mission work. And our team, I was with a group called Justice For All, it was really split down the middle of Catholics and Protestants. So we had all kinds of conversations about our agreements and our differences, and they were very good natured because we shared something so important that even a lot of other Christians didn’t value, which is standing up for the unborn.
Megan Bloedel:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. And I think it’s just so good just to be reminded that at the end of the day we all believe in Christ and His death and resurrection, and that salvation, and there might be doctrinal differences, but we’re brothers and sisters at the end of the day. And so I think that’s just a good reminder that, yes, we can hash it out with our differences and we could really go at it, but at the end of the day we can shake hands as siblings.
Trent Horn:
well because we’re united in the body of Christ through our common baptism, that if you’re baptized, then you’re united to the body of Christ and you’re even united to the church that Christ established. Now obviously, as a Catholic, we believe that the church Christ established, the particular word is subsists, it’s subsists in the Catholic Church and that it has bishops in a hierarchy to give it a historical continuity through time. But we recognize that it’s not identical to that because there are others through their common baptism that are also united to the church though in an imperfect way. So in our conversations between Catholics and Protestants, as a Catholic, I want our Protestant brothers and sisters to be in perfect communion with Christ’s Church, and there’s a lot of dialogue to have there about that. But I will say that it’s easier to have that dialogue because we have so much in common, the gap is much less than between myself and an atheist or you two talking to an atheist where there the gap is much, much more different and wider to cross.
Jacque Anderson:
So yes, talking about these differences between Protestants and Catholics, and I went to a very Catholic school, so I was just surrounded by Catholics. And then when I moved to Chicago, I became friends with a lot of Protestants and then of course Megan who’s like my best friend in Chicago, and I found that I’ve learned a lot from her even though she’s from a different faith tradition that has benefited my faith.
Trent Horn:
So in Chicago, have you interacted with anybody at Moody?
Megan Bloedel:
So I’m from Moody.
Trent Horn:
You are from Moody Bible Institute, where Bible is our middle name?
Megan Bloedel:
Yes.
Jacque Anderson:
Yes.
Megan Bloedel:
That’s where I graduated from.
Trent Horn:
That’s great.
Megan Bloedel:
So Jacque and I joke that we had the same experience but just opposite, she had the Catholic Moody and I had the Protestant Franciscan.
Trent Horn:
Right, yes, good.
Jacque Anderson:
That is so true. Yes. But I’ve learned so much from Megan, and I mean, I’m sure you’ve learned a lot from discussing the faith with Protestants.
Trent Horn:
Yes.
Jacque Anderson:
So what do you think, as a Catholic, we can learn from our Protestant brothers and sisters in the faith?
Trent Horn:
Well, I think there’s different things that we can learn from one another. One thing we can learn is just how to talk about our differences and see that sometimes the differences that we have, sometimes they result in just semantics, that we’re actually talking about the same thing, we’re using different words to be able to describe it. So Pope Benedict XVI even said that Luther’s formula, salvation by faith alone it can be valid if you understand faith to be more than intellectual assent. That it’s as Galatians chapter five says, Paul says that, “We are saved by faith.” What matters he says is faith working through love or charity. So I think that, that can be helpful.
Trent Horn:
Other things, excuse me, that when we talk about the differences we have, I really do feel like sometimes, yes, it’s its vocabulary and sometimes in practical matters we believe the same thing but we arrive at that belief in different ways and we have different justifications for it. So for example, I would say that Catholics, for example, take the doctrine of mortal sin and venial sin. A lot of Protestants will say, well, sin is sin and Christ died for our sins, I’m not going to divide up sins into mortal or venial sins. And what Catholics would say is, well, venial sins damage our relationship with God but mortal sins severe that relationship, and so we’re cut off from God and to die in that state we will be apart from God for all eternity.
Trent Horn:
I truly believe that nearly all, nearly all Protestant Christians do believe in a concept of mortal sin and venial sin but they don’t use that language, because there are some Protestants who say, well, you can lose your salvation, and many Lutherans and others believe that. And if that’s the case, then clearly there’s two kinds of sins. In James 3:2 it says, We all stumble in many small ways. So if you can lose your salvation, there’s little sins that damage your relationship with God and big ones where you would be forsaking your salvation.
Trent Horn:
Even among Protestants who would say, well, you can’t lose your salvation if you’re in that framework, many people I know who believe that, and feel free as I wrap up here to correct me if I’m wrong on anything, would say, you can’t lose your salvation but imagine somebody who was Christian their whole life, and then they leave the church, become an atheist, become a really bad person, don’t repent. Many Protestants I know who believe salvation cannot be lost would say, well, that person was never saved to begin with, and that’s a whole other can of worms open up.
Trent Horn:
But notice here that, that person has engaged in the behavior, the sins that Christians don’t commit, like atheism, apostasy, adultery, abortion, the big A’s. So I really do feel like our Protestant brothers and sisters would agree nearly all. Now there are some Protestants who believe, hey, once you’re saved, even if you become an atheistic serial killer, you’re going to heaven. There’s a small minority that believe that, so that would be bracketed from this discussion. But for me I’m like, well, I think we do believe in these two different kinds of sins, we just cash it out differently. And so I think when we have these discussions we can find that common belief, we just arrive at it in different ways. I don’t know if that all made sense to you guys, I’m just throwing that out there.
Megan Bloedel:
No, yes, I think this is something Jacque and I have seen just with each other. I mean, we’ve just as friends had lots of conversations regarding like, I would be like, Oh, so why do you go to confession? Or she would say, so why do you believe in this? And blah, blah, blah.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Megan Bloedel:
And then we did an episode on Sola Scriptura and on Mary. And I think something, like our big takeaway, obviously we didn’t convince the other person, but our big takeaway was just, wow, we really need to define our terms and actually make sure that the category I’m describing is the same category you’re describing, because even when it comes down to little things, we’re talking about the Bible and we’re both saying tradition and we’re meaning completely different things.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Megan Bloedel:
And so we could completely talk past each other without realizing, well, at the end of the day, actually we do agree on a lot more than we realize, but it’s going to sound like we don’t agree at all because we’re not even talking about the same thing. And so I think that’s a great point to bring up too is that if we actually take the time to listen or ask questions of, well, what do you mean by that? Okay, you have these categories of sin and I don’t use those words, but wait, do I categorize sin at all? And so I think it’s just good to even just take a step back sometimes and let go of some preconceptions we may have of, Well, I know I’m Protestant so I don’t believe in mortal sin. It’s like, wait.
Trent Horn:
Right, but then it’s like, I don’t call it mortal sin, but I believe there are some sins that Christians do not commit on a repeated basis.
Megan Bloedel:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
We’re going to make little sins every day because we’re sinners, but there’s some things if you are a Christian you’re not doing these things, especially in a habitual and unrepentant way. So yes, you’re right, we don’t use the term. Another thing I think is helpful when we’re talking with each other is to correct misunderstandings that can arise. Here’s a classic one, people say, well, Protestants believe that we’re saved by faith and Catholics believe that we’re saved by faith and works, and so we got this divide here. But the thing is, the catholic church doesn’t use the phrase, like the magisterial documents, don’t use the phrase faith and works as if we are saved by faith and works. Instead, when you look at the Catechism in paragraph 2,010, it says that in the order of salvation, the initial moment that we are saved, which as Catholics we would say is in baptism, that cannot come through works, there are no works you can do to merit the initial moment of salvation, it is only received by grace and it’s by grace alone.
Trent Horn:
So I take when a baby is baptized, the baby does nothing, the baby doesn’t even exercise faith, the baby is just saved by grace it. It’s grace through the faith of the parents choosing baptism for that child. But to understand we would say, hey, look, to be saved, it’s by grace through faith. When I was baptized when I was 17, I didn’t move of my own accord to get baptized, the Holy Spirit prompted me to say yes to God’s offer of salvation. And so I received that grace in baptism but there was no work involved in that. However, we do believe that because justification is an ongoing process, it’s something where by being obedient to God, by doing the good works he’s prepared for us … You go to Ephesians chapter two, Ephesians 2:8-9, you can’t boast, you’ve been saved by grace through faith, and this is not of works that any man should boast. But then verse 10 says that God has prepared good works for us.
Trent Horn:
So in the whole Ephesians two and that entire passage, it seems that what Paul is saying, he’s comparing works and good works. Verses 11 through 14 show that the works are probably the works of the Mosaic law, and I don’t want to get in too much of a theological discourses here. But my point being that, we do agree, we’re saved by faith through grace, we also believe that works by simply obeying God as our Father, we are His children through baptism and when we obey Him, God transforms our souls, the light of Christ that’s been given to us shines even brighter when we cooperate with God’s grace to do the good works he’s prepared for us.
Trent Horn:
To give you an example, I got my kids, let’s say my four year old, if I asked my four year old to draw a portrait of me, it’ll look like a bunch of squiggly lines and I’ll tell him, this is the best thing I’ve ever seen. And I might give him a reward for doing that, not because the picture looks amazing, it doesn’t, but it’s because he’s my child and I love him, and he is choosing to obey me and trying to please me. Now if I hired a portrait artist and I paid him, and he gave me that and demanded I pay him that for the work, I would say, sorry my friend, you don’t deserve anything from me, this is horrid. And that is what the Bible is saying when it says that our works when they’re brought to God of their own human accord, they’re like the squiggly lined portrait, it’s terrible.
Trent Horn:
But when those same works are brought to God in a spirit of humility, because we obey him as his sons and daughters through baptism, then through that God wants to reward us and he wants to increase our justification to conform our nature to be more and more like Him. So that’s just a little bit to throw out there to help, because some people, yes, on the justification issue, there can be misrepresentations and it’s all about trying to see it in the right light.
Megan Bloedel:
Yes. So I grew up in a very interesting circumstance, because I personally had Catholic friends but I grew up in a very reformed evangelical, conservative culture, that was the environment I was in. And so it was funny because I had this one friend group of Catholics and then another friend group that were like, Catholics aren’t Christians, that divide.
Trent Horn:
Thankfully, that’s shrinking. I’ve seen also in the past 20 or 30 years it’s a small minority among Protestants who would believe Catholics are not Christians.
Megan Bloedel:
Yes, and the same the other way too I think.
Trent Horn:
Right. Yes.
Megan Bloedel:
I think there’s a lot more of a bridge being built. But it was funny because a lot of times when I would really dig deep and ask, well, why? What do you think they believe that’s wrong? It was mischaracterizations, it was, well they believe that you have to work your way to heaven.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Megan Bloedel:
And when I would explain, well, no, I really don’t think that’s what they believe, I’ve talked with them, they’re my friends, it was just very much dismissed. And so I think, and this is what Jacque and I talk about all the time too, this endeavor just to bridge that gap and have understanding is so important because I could sit at home and read theology books and think I know everything about Catholicism or I could just go and ask Jacque, someone who’s a Catholic, and that would probably be a lot more fruitful in my understanding.
Trent Horn:
And it’s important for Catholics to do the same thing, and this is especially important for Catholics to do, because for you as a Protestant and trying to understand Catholicism, at least you could go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and look up stuff and have a uniform source of Catholic belief. But to say Protestants believe X, that’s a wide, wide gamut. I’m hesitant to really utter Protestants believe X, except on things like Protestants believe that the Pope does not have special authority, they don’t believe these Catholic things. But among those who identify as Protestant and some Catholics who have not had these relationships to other Protestants may not realize, hey, there are Protestants who have beliefs that some of the beliefs are really close to Catholicism and others are further away. So you’re right, I think it’s important to be able to understand that and to have those honest discussions with one another, at the very least, that we firmly understand where each person is coming from.
Megan Bloedel:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jacque Anderson:
Yes. I know I had a very similar misconception when I was at Franciscan I thought, oh, by faith alone or that you can’t lose your salvation that it meant that Protestants could just act however they wanted. I thought all Protestants thought the same thing as you were saying that very small like percentage of them that really think you can do whatever you want and not lose your salvation at all.
Trent Horn:
Yes. It’s a very tiny group. They do exist, but the vast majority, I would say, of those who believe in eternal security, the idea that you can’t lose your salvation, they would say, well what that means is anyone who looks like they have, they were just never saved in the first place. And so this is helpful actually when people try to say that, well, some people argue that eternal security is superior to Catholicism because some people feel like, hey, look, when I was a Catholic, I’m always worried I’m going to go to hell, I need to go to confession, I’m really, really worried that I’m not saved, I got to go to confession.
Trent Horn:
And you could think and embracing this notion of Protestantism that says you can’t lose your salvation, it’s going to be so freeing, but it’s not because if you’re neurotically worried about whether you’ve lost your salvation, whether you’re no longer a Christian, if you join one of these denominations, you’re just going to switch your neurotic worry to then being, well, was I ever saved in the first place? Because then if you do something really bad, you’ll just be saying, man, maybe when I gave my life to Christ I wasn’t really sincere, I never really was saved in the first place. So I think that in understanding it, neither side has a win here on psychological security, so we can just take that off the table and just say, okay, well, what do the Scriptures tell us about this then? What was the received tradition in the Christian Church on this? And then the dialogue can continue.
Jacque Anderson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes, for sure. Yes, I just I think I definitely had a misunderstanding of what most Protestants thought, which I think goes back to, yes, what Megan was saying where Protestants will be like, oh, Catholics think that works just save them, they have to work for their salvation.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Jacque Anderson:
And on the other side, we’re thinking the extreme of, they think they can do whatever they want after they become Christian, which I did meet one person that did think that and then I just blanketed all of Protestants as that and Megan was like, “No, that’s really not how it is.”
Trent Horn:
And there are Catholics who think that Protestants aren’t Christians and that if you do these superstitious practices, you’ll definitely go to heaven. So we always have to make sure that we judge a belief system by its teachings, primarily first, then the fruit from its best believers. Definitely you judge it by the teachings, not by the conduct of the worst believers. But on the works question, I would summarize it this way, people say, oh, Catholics believe they have to do works to get into heaven. There is no work we do to earn our salvation, earning implies I do something and I’m given a payment for what I’ve done. Rather, there are consequences for our behavior.
Trent Horn:
So the Catholic Church would say this, we’re saved by grace and baptism, grace alone through baptism. And then after being baptized, there is only one work you must do to go to heaven, there’s only one work you do, it’s not even works, it’s just one work, do not commit unrepentant mortal sin, that’s it. That’s all. We’re baptized, you’re brought into the body of Christ, do not commit an unrepentant mortal sin, do not forsake your salvation and do so in an impenitent way until your death. Now what kinds of behaviors would entail severing our relationship with Christ? That’s where we’re going to have agreements and disagreements, but that’s where we can have a dialogue about that.
Megan Bloedel:
Yes, so we’ve talked a lot about some of our similarities, but what do you think are still the main issues dividing Catholics and Protestants? And we’ve already touched on some of the misunderstandings, but what are the main misunderstandings that exist between us?
Trent Horn:
Well, I think the main things that are dividing us, ultimately, it’s going to go back to the issue of authority, because when you look at let’s say the doctrines that divide us, Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception and the bodily assumption of Mary and Protestants don’t, you pick these different things, or believing in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or the necessity of a priest who has Holy Orders given to him by a successor of the apostles. When you start with these doctrines, and this has probably happened with you two when you talk about the assumption or when you talk about purgatory, invariably what’s going to come back to is, well, by what authority do we believe these things?
Trent Horn:
Do we just look at it by what the Bible says in and of itself and we’ll just believe what the Bible tells us, or do we believe the Word of God is found not just in the written word, but in unwritten sacred tradition, and that Christ intended for the authority of the apostles to not perish with them but to continue with successors. Even on salvation, we’ll have difference of opinions about salvation, and we can even look at scripture and disagree, well, the scripture means this, no, it means that, it is going to go back to that authority question. So there are these doctrines that we’ll have disagreements about. Though it depends, some Protestants believe in baptismal regeneration, so they would agree with Catholics, and they believe salvation can be lost. So it will depend on the domination. But at the end of the day, I really think it’s the authority question that has to be resolved if we’re going to seek further union and unity within the body of Christ.
Jacque Anderson:
Yes, the authority one is definitely a big one.
Trent Horn:
Yes.
Jacque Anderson:
I think you know Austin Suggs from Gospel Simplicity.
Trent Horn:
Yes.
Jacque Anderson:
We talked with him a while back and he was saying, “Well, the papacy really is the big turning point. If I believed in the papacy, how could I not be Catholic? But if I don’t believe in the papacy, how can I be Catholic?” And it does really come down to that of, well, if we have a different source of authority, in a sense, then there can be a unity in spirit but we can’t come to an agreement in doctrine?
Trent Horn:
Well, we can’t because we differ about how we understand where we get our understanding of how we know what the Church teaches, because for me, if we just talk about the church as lowercase C and it’s just the everyone who is Christian and has been validly baptized. To me, that can have no authority whatsoever. I mean, none of us feel moved by just everybody who is baptized because all of our beliefs are so different and we don’t feel like they have authority over us to tell us. They might give good examples in certain things, but at the end of the day, to have authority we have to say, okay, well, where does that come from?
Trent Horn:
So for me though, as I’ve been having these conversations, I really do believe, and my challenge to Protestant listeners would be to not start with the position of Protestantism being correct and then seeing if Catholicism passes the evidential test, because for me, when I was in my conversion experience, I looked at the Bible like it was just a set of human documents, not even the Word of God. Okay, I believe is a God out there, there’s this guy, Jesus, what can I know about him? And I can know historically, he claimed to be God and He vindicated that claim by rising from the dead.
Trent Horn:
So okay, I believe God exists, he became man, and he rose from the dead. But then after that, well, that doesn’t mean I automatically believe that these 66 or 73 books, depending on how you count them, there’s a difference there, of the Bible are inspired, and inerrant, and this is my authority. For me it’s like, wait, that’s a really big jump. I’ve just got the resurrection of Jesus and now I have to stay here and say, all right, I believe in God and Jesus, and he rose from the dead. Do I go to Protestantism with Sola Scriptura? What’s the evidence for that? Do I go to Eastern Orthodoxy with apostolic succession, but all of the bishops and patriarchs are equals of one another? Or do I look at Catholicism that one of them is different in carerisms and serves as unity amongst the other bishops?
Trent Horn:
So for me, I think it’s important for all of us to not, even if you’re Catholic also, okay, if you’re looking at everything here, don’t just say, okay, well, I’m right, why are these other people wrong? All right, let’s start at, it’s like the end of Castaway with Tom Hanks, did you guys ever see that movie?
Jacque Anderson:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
Spoiler. Well, I’m not going to spoiler alert because they actually spoil the movie in the trailer, so I don’t care. But at the very end, he goes and he’s standing at that crossroads, and he’s got the package he’s trying to get back to the lady or whatever. But he’s just standing there at that very metaphorical ending of where there is the crossroads goes in the different directions. When we’re trying to understand what Christian denomination possesses the fullness of the truth, we don’t want to prejudice one over the others when we’re in this investigative mode, rather, we should look at where the evidence points to each of them, whether it’s Protestantism, the eastern churches, or Catholicism.
Megan Bloedel:
Yes, I think that’s been helpful for Jacque and I to even just as we talk to each other, is don’t come at it with the attitude of, Okay, this is what I believe, now tell me what you believe so that I can tell you why you’re wrong.
Trent Horn:
Right.
Megan Bloedel:
Which isn’t helpful for anyone and it also isn’t helpful for yourself to truly understand, because I know when I’ve approached Catholic beliefs with the open mind of being like, okay, what is this really teaching? Is this true? What does this mean? You get so much more out of it. And I think going in it with this closed mind of, well, I know I’m right, I already know everything, which is impossible, whatever, there’s no way any of us in this room know every single thing about anything. But to go at it with an open mind of, okay, well what is this actually saying? Let me hear this out, let me understand this, I think breeds a lot more fruitful dialogue between people and helps us actually have more unity too. So with that, what would your advice be maybe for conversations people are having with across faith traditions or even as Protestants across different denominations? What maybe is your advice as you’ve gotten these conversations quite often, just to have fruitful dialogue?
Trent Horn:
I would say that my advice would be the same as talking to anybody who disagrees with you, go into the conversation, I’m not here to win a theological debate. If you set the goal of just being, I want to perfectly understand what this other person believes and why they believe it, then you’re going to have a good conversation. And then if that person can perfectly understand what you believe and why you believe it, so that’s good in and of itself, but also, if you believe that what you believe is true and it corresponds to reality, and that other person perfectly understands what you believe, then they may see, hey, wait a minute, what I believe there’s an inconsistency here, there might not be something that’s right, and then I gravitate more towards what you believe.
Trent Horn:
Now it doesn’t mean we just sit around and sing kumbaya, we can challenge one another and we can do so in a respectful way. But I think the best thing to do is when we’re in these conversations, to focus primarily on asking questions, what do you think? Why do you think that? Listening to reflect, as in you can listen and then repeat back to the person what they said rather than listening to refute and just trying to shut them down as soon as they’re done giving their answer. Finding common ground wherever you can, because the more common ground we have, the easier it is to make the step across the gap if the gap closes in more with common ground. And then just knowing that the conversation is a journey, you don’t have to resolve everything in one sitting and always leave the door open to continue to have those discussions.
Jacque Anderson:
I think, yes, for sure. And just as Megan was saying, coming into it not just listening to respond, but really listening and thinking about their arguments. I think sometimes when I’ve gotten into conversations with Protestants I was too afraid to do that because I was like, what if they prove me wrong or whatever? But if you’re going into it in the pursuit of truth, that should never be your mindset, because you’re going to come out on the side of truth no matter what if that’s what you’re eventually truly and prayerfully looking for and discerning. And I’ve learned so much more about the faith by entering into conversations like that or listening to a very intelligent Protestant thinkers like Dr. Ortlund, who it’s so funny how we even connected Trent, because I watched a video of his and then also of him responding to your video with Gospel Simplicity. And I had never listened to good arguments against the papacy and so I was a little shaken.
Jacque Anderson:
I was like, I’ve never heard this, they made it super simple at Franciscan and a lot of I think Catholic apologists do. And then I dug into it more but I had a better understanding of my belief in the end, and a better respect for people that didn’t believe in it even though I don’t agree. But that helped me feel more, I don’t know, in a way have greater respect and have more fruitful dialogue with Protestants.
Trent Horn:
Right. And that’s good to see, what are the clearest and ablest positions that are put forward by the other side? And that’s why in my book, The Case For Catholicism, for example, I draw from the classic reformers and what I would consider the best apologists representing Protestantism and their critiques of Catholicism. There are critics out there who I’m not a big fan of because of their demeanor, I think Gavin has an excellent demeanor. He’s intelligent and he is gracious and I hope to maybe I’ll engage him in a live format on one of these questions in the future. That’s why it’s always nice to be able to find individuals that. And so it’s funny when I see Gavin responding to me, when that happens sometimes I don’t try to get into a responding infinite feedback loop with people I usually try-
Megan Bloedel:
Video after video.
Trent Horn:
That’s true. Well I have a rule on my YouTube channel, I will respond, I will make videos critical of people who are anti-Catholic or anti-christian, not anti-Catholic, if you’re critical of Catholicism or Christianity, I’ll make a video replying to you. Sometimes you will make replies to my replies, and then my firm rule is the next step is we can have a public discussion or a debate on the issue. But you’re right. And I think that’s also important that wherever you’re at in proposing what you believe, you should understand the best arguments of the other side, and apologists do a disservice when they act like those arguments don’t exist.
Trent Horn:
But I will say, if you’re leery of getting in a conversation because I might not know what to say or I might get stumped, it happens to everybody. You can always say, because you’re afraid of saying I don’t know and looking like you’re foolish, you can say, hey, that’s a really good question and I want to get a really good answer to that or for you, so I’m going to go research people who’ve looked into it more than I have and then I could get you some more to look over on this.
Megan Bloedel:
Yes. And I would also just encourage people too, it can be really fun to engage with people in charitable disagreement.
Trent Horn:
Sure.
Megan Bloedel:
I think Jacque and I both just have a lot of fun going back and forth on these issues because it’s something we both care about and it can be really fun to learn, okay, why do I even believe what I believe? I should have a reason for believing this. I shouldn’t just believe it because, whatever, I’ve always done it. And I think if we go into it with this feeling of, well, it all rides on me, I have to prove my side right, maybe we just need to lighten up, maybe we just need to have some fun.
Trent Horn:
And we can also build up our spiritual lives together, we can do Bible study together, or we can work together doing apologetics in a common cause, like pro-life or atheism. Getting together to do praise … I’ve done praise and worship with Protestant friends that we are united in prayer on the common theological elements that we have in our adoration of the one Triune God.
Megan Bloedel:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Trent Horn:
So then that way we build one another up and we help one another as we face a culture that is really that where we are both in the minority.
Jacque Anderson:
Yes. So with this last question, we also asked this question to Austin Suggs from Gospel Simplicity, but do you think it’s possible that all Christians will be united on this side of heaven? Or do you think Christians should strive for unity or is it a fruitless pursuit? Because I’ve heard people on both sides say, we’re never going to be unified because it would take people on both sides to really compromise on things that they believe in. But also, Jesus wants us to be unified, so is that something that we should be striving for?
Trent Horn:
Well, I think in Matthew, what is it? Matthew 5:48 Jesus says, “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” [inaudible 00:37:58] wow, that’s dumb, because I can’t be perfect in this life. Well, no, you you can’t be but the point here is Jesus is saying that this is what we should strive for because God has given us His grace to be able to do that, and for God, nothing is impossible. And so in doing that, we should not allow our human limits to prevent us from trying to carry out God’s will. God’s will is that we follow Him, we don’t fall into sin, we love our neighbor as ourself, and that all of us, as Jesus prayed for in John 17, that we are one, that we are united together in a unity just as Jesus and the Father shared a perfect union together in the glory that they share prior to the creation of the world. He wants all of us to have more true beliefs and less false beliefs, He wants us to be free from sin and to be free from error. God doesn’t want us to sin and doesn’t want us to be in error.
Trent Horn:
So clearly, then when it comes to these beliefs where we can’t just merely compromise on them, we have to figure out who’s right and who’s wrong, we have to continue to seek out our understanding and to seek out that union, even with our feeble human minds if we can’t understand how that union could occur at someday in the future, doesn’t mean we should stop and we should not strive for it. I mean, I’m sure if you ask the apostles 2,000 years ago when the world was shrouded in pagan darkness and 0.1% of the world believed in the true God at all, I’m sure a lot of Christians at that time could never have imagined the world looking like it is today where half the world professors belief in monotheism and a third believes in the true God. In The ancient world they could have never imagined it’d be like this in 2,000 years, who knows what will happen in another 2,000 years? I say we should strive to do God’s will, He’ll figure out everything else after that. Romans eight, everything works for good for those who love God.
Jacque Anderson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s so true. And it’s convicting for me because I am one of the pessimistic people that every time we would ask that question I’d be joking, I’d be like, no, that’s not going to happen. But that’s really convicting that all we have to do is strive to do God’s will and He really will take care of the rest and we can’t see how he’s going to do that. If he will do that on this side of heaven, I don’t think any of us have the answer of how he would do that. But he definitely can and I think that’s good to remember.
Megan Bloedel:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, thank you so much for coming on. And for yes, dialogue with us and talking. This has been just really awesome because both Jacque and I just really love encouraging people to just talk about things, just disagree, it’s okay, let’s have a conversation, let’s figure out what each other believe and understand. So yes, I’m just so thankful and grateful that you were able to come on and talk about this from your perspective as well.
Trent Horn:
Thank you guys so much for having me. I’m very grateful for the conversations that you’re having and we need more Christians to be willing to have these important conversations. So I was very grateful to come on and just keep up all of your good work.
Jacque Anderson:
Yes.
Megan Bloedel:
Awesome.
Jacque Anderson:
Yes, thank you and I’m sure we’re looking forward to if you and Dr. Ortlund do debate. We’re having Gavin on actually in about a month or so to talk about baptism because Megan and I disagree on that, so that should be really interesting. But yes [crosstalk 00:41:48].
Trent Horn:
So does Gavin, he’s a Protestant who does not believe in baptism regeneration?
Jacque Anderson:
Yes, he’s a believer’s baptism, he’s a Baptist.
Trent Horn:
Interesting. Yes.
Jacque Anderson:
Yes.
Trent Horn:
Then you’re going to have a Lutheran to come on [crosstalk 00:42:05] to talk about baptismal regeneration, because that’s what that is one of those interesting issues where there’s that … And I think that’s important also for Protestants to consider because some Protestants will say, well, we have our tradition, we have our beliefs, but a concern I have is because some Protestants will say, well, look, we all agree on the important things, what else matters? Well, no, the other things do matter, like, should we baptize babies or not? If baptism is what saves us, you better believe we should. But if baptism is not what saves us, you’re just getting the kid wet for no reason. That’s something you got to consider. So yes, I’d love to see how your conversations go in that regard. All right-
Megan Bloedel:
Hope you have a good night and are able to get some sleep.
Trent Horn:
Pray that I do.
Megan Bloedel:
Right [crosstalk 00:42:51].
Jacque Anderson:
All right. Thank you so much, Trent.
Trent Horn:
All right. Thank you guys. Hey, guys, thank you so much for watching and be sure to go and check out, Let’s Talk About It, Jacque and Megan’s podcasts, I’ll leave a link in the description below. And if you like the work that we’re doing here at the Council of Trent, don’t forget to go to trenthornpodcast.com to continue to support everything we’re doing. Thank you guys so much and I hope you have a very blessed day.
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