In this excerpt from his rebuttal to Josh at the Servus Christi YouTube channel, Trent shows how the Bible does not teach salvation by faith alone but that we need to do other things to be saved, including being baptized.
Welcome to the Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent:
Hello, everyone. As promised, here is part two of the excerpts of my rebuttals to Josh at the Servus Day YouTube channel, and his video: The Catholic Church, Masterpiece of Deception.
Trent:
Part one at the beginning of the week, we talked about the church’s teaching on the Eucharist. Today, it’s Justification and Baptism. So, if you want to get the full video, go to my YouTube channel, Counsel of Trent, on YouTube. If you want to listen to the full audio file, it’s nearly four hours long this rebuttal, but if you want to listen to the whole audio file in one place, I’ve got it for patrons at trenthornpodcasts.com. Be sure to check that out.
Trent:
If you haven’t already, either in a few hours or it’s already happened by the time you listen to this episode, go to Matt Frad’s YouTube page, Pints with Aquinas. I’ll be doing my live debate there at 12 PM Pacific on Thursday, July 30th against Alex O’Connor, the Cosmic Skeptic, on the question: Does God exist? So, so much great stuff. So many things are going on. I won’t have a Free-For-All Friday tomorrow, but Free-For-All Fridays will be back next week along with other great episodes. We’ll do a debrief of this debate. I’ve got my dialogue on Sola Scriptura coming up soon with a Protestant who has a lot of interest in the Catholic faith. So many great things.
Trent:
But this is part two. If you missed part one, check it out. Otherwise, the whole thing is at Counsel of Trent YouTube, and don’t forget about the debate happening later tonight. So, thank you guys so much and here is part two of my excerpt of my reply to Josh at Servus Day focusing on Sola Fida, justification by faith alone, and how Christ gave us the sacrament of baptism to effect our salvation.
Josh:
Here described for us in the Catholic Church is a Jesus whose blood cannot perfectly cleanse you. It is insufficient blood, and therefore, it is a false Christ. The notion of-
Trent:
Okay. This is a fallacy that comes up a lot, I think, when Protestants talk about how it is Christ’s blood that sanctifies us and cleanses us from sin. And notice, it’ll come up over and over again as Josh explains this. This idea that if Christ’s blood does not perfectly purify you in a single instant, then it is insufficient. As if, in order for Christ’s blood to be sufficient to purify us from sin, this has to happen at one single moment in an irrevocable way.
Trent:
But just because the process of sanctification is itself a process, that doesn’t mean Christ’s blood is insufficient, that Christ’s death on the cross is insufficient just because it’s spread out over time. That doesn’t make it insufficient. It’s perfectly sufficient, because it is the only thing. It is the thing that is cleansing us of sin.
Josh:
Anyone being imperfectly purified by the blood of Jesus has no part in scripture. The Bible teaches that, “Christ in you is the hope of glory,” Colossians 1:27. “But of Him, you are in Christ Jesus who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification,” First Corinthians 1:30. Listen, “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him,” Second Corinthians 5:21.
Josh:
The Catholic Church renders all these verses lies, and therefore, they make the Holy Spirit a liar. “But now, in Christ Jesus, you who were once a far-off have been brought near by the blood of Jesus.” So, the Jesus, according to Scripture in First John 1:7, “His blood cleanses us from all sin.” The blood of Jesus Christ, his son, cleanses us from all sin. “Jesus loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood,” Revelation 1:5. “In Him, we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of sins,” Ephesians 1:7. Jesus purified,” It uses the exact same word, “Purified for Himself His own special-”
Trent:
I should comment here though, that the perfecting of us, that it is something that does occur in one instantaneous moment, it’s just not irrevocable. Think about when Christ was crucified, that blood and water flowed out of his side at the crucifixion, which is of course symbolic of how the church will flow from Christ, but also the sacraments of the Eucharist, receiving his body and blood in the Eucharist, and of course, receiving baptism which cleanses us from sin. So, the blood of Christ, the graces that Christ merited upon the cross, it is through that, that we are perfectly purified of sin at baptism. It is through baptism that the grace that Christ has merited for us perfectly purifies us from sin. We are perfected in that moment. But the error here, of course, is this idea that Christ’s perfection of us is a solitary moment and a irrevocable one.
Trent:
As in, once it occurs, it can never change because through baptism, as the Council of Trent says, there is nothing that hinders us after baptism from attaining heaven. The only thing that would hinder us would be any future actions where we reject the grace of God that we have been given. So, I would say that, yes, it actually does perfect us through the sacraments that Christ gave us, but it’s not an either, or. It’s not either Jesus or sacraments, this point will come up again as well. It’s not, well, it’s either the blood of Jesus or these man-made sacraments. It’s through the blood of Christ on the cross, Christ gives us his grace, and he’s given us specific means to receive that through the sacraments. Not either, or. It’s both, and.
Josh:
“People,” Titus 2:14. “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,” First John… What is that? First John 2:2. “You were redeemed not with corruptible things, but with the blood, the precious blood, of Jesus,” First Peter 1:18 and 19. “Jesus Himself bore our sins in his own body on the tree by whose stripes you were healed.”
Trent:
I also need to talk about perfection here. So, it’s true that through baptism we are perfected in that moment, but of course, the Letter of James goes on to say that we stumble seven times a day, the righteous man makes many mistakes. We still sin in this life. We are not perfected yet. Josh’s idea that if you just believe in Jesus, and believe in the salvific efficacy of his death on the cross, that you are just perfectly purified and made perfect in a single moment, and there’s nothing else that you have to do upon having faith in what Christ has done for you. But that’s not what the Bible teaches when it comes to us being perfected. This idea that he’s saying, “Well, we’re perfected by the blood of Christ, and we don’t have need for any other kind of works or sacraments or anything like that.”
Trent:
That’s not what the Bible itself teaches because look at what Hebrews chapter 12 says, “And to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant.” What’s talking here is about the saints in heaven, they are made perfect when they get to heaven. “The spirit of just men who are made perfect,” that they are not perfect in this life. Now, someone could say, “Well, they were made perfect in this life by the blood of Christ.” That’s not what Paul says. Let’s go on. Paul says in his letter to the Philippians. He says in Philippians chapter three, verses nine through 12, he talks about how he is not having a righteousness of my own based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ. The righteousness from God that depends on faith. “That I may know him in the power of his resurrection and may share his sufferings. Becoming like him in his death, that if possible,” That’s interesting, “I may attain the resurrection from the dead.”
Trent:
Remember what Paul said in First Corinthians, I think it’s First Corinthians 9:27, Paul says he’s not shadowboxing, he’s not messing around, he’s not playing games. He trains his body for fear that he himself may be disqualified by his own sins. Even Paul did not believe his salvation was a guaranteed matter. But notice more important part where he comes on here in verse 12, “Not that I have already obtained this, or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.” So, very clear here. It’s not the case that through faith we become immediately perfected in this life, because Saint Paul denies that. Not that I’ve already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own. So it’s not like we work to earn salvation, or that Christ just maneuvers us like we’re marionettes or puppets on a string. God is fully in control in sovereign, yet he allows human beings to freely cooperate with him.
Josh:
Now notice it says, “He bore our sins on the tree,” not on the Eucharist. Not on the Eucharist. That was figurative language. Now they make Peter a liar, because according to First Peter, our sins were born in his own body on the tree. Peter doesn’t seem to think that his body was in bread and wine.
Trent:
Well, of course not. We don’t say that Jesus died for our sins in the form of bread and wine. When we say the sacrifice that Christ made is present in bread and wine, we’re not saying that bread and wine are what secured our salvation or are the atonement. We’re saying that Christ died on the cross as the pascal lamb has been sacrificed, as Saint Paul says, and now to receive the pascal lamb, to receive the passover lamb, we receive that sacrifice in the form of bread and wine. So I don’t understand what he’s getting at here. There is no contradiction in saying that Christ was crucified on a cross on the Hill of Calvary, and yet we can receive that on the form of bread and wine as the new passover lamb.
Josh:
Now again, don’t over correct and diminish the importance of the Lord’s supper, there is a place for it, but to the extent that people are genuflecting in front of bread and wine, this is idolatry. First Peter two says, “Jesus bore our sins in his own body on the tree, by whose stripes you were healed.” That’s the only sacrifice the Apostles know of. That’s the only sacrifice the author or Hebrew knows of. One sacrifice forever. Not a bloody end and unbloody sacrifice, which makes no sense. One sacrifice.
Trent:
But if that’s the case, then why do we have, let’s go to the Letter of the Hebrews, for example, in Hebrews chapter 13, what the author of the Hebrews is saying, and it’s quite possible Hebrews was written early enough that the Jerusalem Temple was still standing, which would be before 70 AD. Because he’s trying to say here, “Look, don’t go back to the old covenant. It has been surpassed now. It has been replaced with the new covenant that we have.” And he says here in Hebrews 13, “Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings. For it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited their adherence.
Trent:
We have an altar, from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat.” Those who serve the tent are the priests who serve in the temple in Jerusalem. And Hebrews seems very clear. Doesn’t talk about the temple being destroyed, because that would be a great quiver in the author of the Hebrews, in his argument of not relying on old sacrifices that, “Look the temple’s been destroyed anyways.” So it seems here, they have an altar, he’s saying, we have an altar as well.
Trent:
Saint Paul in First Corinthians chapter 10 he talks about how you cannot partake of the table, the cup, and the table of demons, or the cup and the table of Christ. The table here is not just furniture. Table is another reference in Paul anthology to alters. And an altar only makes sense with a sacrifice, and since Christ was sacrificed once, it’s not a bloody sacrifice, it is an unbloody sacrifice that is re-presented to the father.
Josh:
Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse or purify us from all unrighteousness. I think it was John Wesley who made the argument, “If ever there was to be somebody that was classified as not yet holey purified, surely it would be the thief on the cross, who up until that point, had lived a life of sin, culminating in his death sentence, and there he hung. If ever somebody could be described as imperfectly purified, surely it would be a man whose whole life was filled with sin until the very moment of death.” And what did Jesus say, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” Why? Because his blood cleanses from all unrighteousness. He purifies for himself his own people, we become the righteousness of God in him, he bore our sins on the tree so that everyone in Christ is perfectly purified.
Trent:
The thief on the cross, and we’ll address the thief on the cross also here, in a little bit. But why should we think that the thief on the cross was not perfectly purified of sin before death? He was contrite in the very presence of God the son, of the son of God. He was contrite before God himself, and is not God capable of perfectly purifying someone in an instant? In First Corinthians 15, Saint Paul says, “We will be transformed when we receive our resurrection body.” Paul talks about it happening in the twinkling of an eye. So why shouldn’t we believe that the good thief, because he was penitent, because he was contrite, why shouldn’t we believe that through the grace of God, he was made whole and purified.
Trent:
Just because God gave extraordinary grace on the cross to the good thief, that doesn’t follow that he hasn’t given us ordinary means to receive it. And we should be looking not at specific examples, we should not be looking at exceptions to the rule to create our theology, we should be looking to the rules and the norms clearly laid down in the word of God, whether it’s the word given to us in scripture, or the word preserved in sacred tradition.
Josh:
What does Romans eight say? “There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” There’s no reference, there’s no hint, there’s no allusion to being imperfectly purified. Therefore, the Jesus referenced in the Catholic Catechism, the Eucharistic Jesus kind of blurried notion of purification you must undergo has to happen, where you achieve a certain holiness. The Jesus of Catholicism has insufficient blood, and therefore the Jesus of Catholicism is a false Jesus.
Trent:
Okay, so he’s talked about Romans 8, but once again we have to move forward. Before we do though, let me bring up another point about sacrifice and how the early Christians understood that Christ’s death on the cross was represented in the Eucharistic sacrifice. Go to the early church. Go to the Didache, the first Catechism in the church’s history, at least the first one that we’ve been able to recover I should say. Didache 14 says “Every Lord’s day, gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with this fellow come together with you until they be reconciled that your sacrifice may not be profane.” What is this? It’s the Eucharistic sacrifice that’s being talked about here. “For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, and every place in time offered to me of pure sacrifice.” This is a reference, of course, I believe to Malachi 1:11, how sacrifice to the Lord will be offered all over the face of the Earth. “‘For I am a great king’, says the Lord, ‘And my name is wonderful among the nations.'”
Trent:
Now when we talk about Romans, he goes to Romans 8, but what about Romans 11:22, the idea that in Romans 8, well there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Right. For those who are in Christ Jesus. But it does not follow that you will permanently reside in Christ Jesus, no matter what you do. Because Paul warns at the end in Romans chapter 11, he says, “For if God,” he’s talking about how even the gentiles will be grafted into the kingdom of God here, Paul is saying that if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. That there are some who are part of the covenant who rejected God, those who are far from the covenant, that were brought into it, like the gentiles.
Trent:
Note then, the kindness and severity of God. Severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you too, will be cut off. So, we have faith in Christ and we offer ourselves in faith to submit to believe in Jesus and receive the means by which he has given us to receive his grace in baptism and the Eucharist. In confessing our sins, to confess our sins that if we have ruptured our relationship with God, how are we made right with God again. John 20:23 the Apostles are given the ability to forgive sins or retain them. James 5:16, to confess your sins to the elders, the [Prespideroy 00:16:21], from which we get the English word priests. So we have to look at the whole picture here.
Josh:
Which begets the false gospel of Catholicism, that is wrapped up in all the sacraments. Because the Jesus of Catholicism is insufficient, therefore you must adhere to all these other doctrines of the Catholic church. You need other modes of purification, which include being dipped in water. If you think water saves you, then Jesus died in vain. If you think eating bread and wine saves you, then Jesus died in vain, and his blood is insufficient. If you think being subject to the Roman Pontiff saves you, then Jesus died in vain and his blood is insufficient. Different attributes equal a different Jesus, and a different Jesus equals a different gospel.
Trent:
No, of course we don’t believe water saves us, or bread and wine saves us, anymore than Josh you believe that words save you. Like, do you think the words Jesus Christ be my personal Lord and savior, do you think those words are what saves you? No, of course not. You’ll say those words are the means by which you are forgiven through the person of Christ. So, we’re not that different. You and I agree, God has to, I mean, think about it, God is infinite immaterial, eternal, infinitely beyond us. So he has to use some means to communicate his divine life to us, to communicate his grace and his forgiveness. So obviously that’s why Christ became man, so that God becomes man and we’re reconciled through the mediator-ship that is seen in the person of Jesus Christ. Fully man and fully divine. But still for us to come into union with Christ, there is something that mediates that. There is a means. Whether for you, it’s going to be words that you pray. Or ideas that you have about Christ, or the material means Christ has given us in the sacrament.
Trent:
We don’t believe water is what saves. I mean, the New Testament even addresses this point. Let’s go to First Peter 3:21. In First Peter 3:21 it says, “Baptism now saves you.” And it says, “Not as the removal of dirt from the body.” It’s very clear here what Peter is saying. First Peter 3:21, he says that the water of baptism is not a magical potion that saves you, it’s not the water that saves you, per se. But it is the grace of God, given to you through the water that saves you. Just like, “Jesus be my personal Lord and savior,” the words don’t save you as if they’re some kind of magical incantation, but rather they save you as an articulation of faith to recognize that Christ is the one who I am to have faith in. And not just faith as to believe.
Trent:
Earlier in the video, I think maybe later on, Josh says that faith and belief, that the word basically means the same thing, it’s just believing things. No, the Greek word pestist, it’s more the idea of trust, confidence… I would say a better English word would be allegiance. So, if you say that we are saved by faith, if you translate faith as allegiance, to refer to not just believing in, but trusting in, following in, and obeying… Pope Benedict the 16th even talked about this, he said “Luther’s formula being saved by faith alone is not necessarily incorrect, if by faith you have a larger view of faith that isn’t divorced from charity. That faith includes not just what you believe, but obeying Christ, following his commands, and remaining in union with him.”
Trent:
So, John 63:57, classic text on the Eucharist, we’re not saved by bread and wine, we’re saved by Christ. Christ has just given himself to us under the form of bread and wine. That’s what we believe, and that’s what the scripture clearly teaches. Why should we reject it?
Josh:
Here’s what Jesus said, “This sacramental gospel, as proclaimed by the Catholic church, all of these things are necessary because the Jesus is insufficient. And the Jesus is insufficient because he’s not the real Jesus. Here’s what the Bible says, “Jesus,” At least six times or more says, “Your faith has made you well, your faith has made you well.” It was their faith that made them well, nothing else. Your faith has made you well. Repent and believe the gospel. The word believe and the word faith are effectively the same words. Not salvation by sacraments, salvation by faith. Whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. The power of God-
Trent:
Well look at that. What is a sacrament? A sacrament is an outward sign of inward grace. So I’m sure Josh would say, “We are saved by grace,” right? Of course we are saved by grace. So, what is a sacrament? A sacrament is just an outward sign of the inward reception of grace. So are we saved by means, are there means we undergo through which we receive grace. I think really both of us do believe that, in some form or another, I’m just going with those means that scripture shows, Christ actually instituted.
Josh:
God, to salvation for everyone who believes. Romans 1:16, “When Jesus saw their faith,” Listen to what he said, “He said to the paralytics, ‘Son be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven you.'” Why were his sins forgiven? Because Jesus saw his faith. Jesus didn’t see his baptism, Jesus didn’t see his sacramental indulgence, Jesus saw his faith, and said his sins-
Trent:
So, you’re going to say that someone for whom the church did not exist yet, to offer indulgences, which themselves are not means of communicating eternal salvation, but only the remittance of the temporal punishment of sin, or the fact that Jesus had not instituted baptism yet as part of the New Covenant right of the church, we’re going to judge that? I tell you what, let me play and then offer my thoughts on this argument, which I’ve heard a lot, which is “Look at Jesus how he saved,” Saved, let’s put saved in quotation marks, “These people, in his Earthly ministry. And recognized that their salvation,” Quotation marks, “Came about through faith.”
Josh:
Are forgiven you. Your faith has saved you, go in peace. The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith as it is-
Trent:
Okay, so let’s stop here, because Josh is jumping, and I don’t like this approach, obviously. I don’t like this is machine gun exegetics. We’re just going to load up all our Bible verses, like rounds in a clip and fire them off. And it’s impressive to people who maybe haven’t read these ever, or in a long time, or know how they all fit together, and our interpretative position will win with overwhelming firepower. That is probably my least favorite hermeneutical approach to scripture. Just overwhelming biblical proof text firepower.
Trent:
So, here he’s transitioned away from what Jesus said to what Paul is talking about in the dynamics of faith and works in Paul. Let’s go back to Jesus. When Jesus says, “Your faith has saved you,” What are people being saved from? Usually we have the case of the paralytic, who is usually they’re saved from a natural kind of evil, paralysis, death, sickness, exorcism. So, here what you’re there saved from is a natural evil. Though, also in the case of the paralytic in others, we have Jesus saying that their sins are forgiven as well, they’re saved from eternal damnation, they’re saved from spiritual harms. But most of these cases, when Jesus says to people during his Earthly ministry, “Your faith has saved you,” this is not a model for us as Christians, because the words faith and save are so different here. They’re saved from natural evils through, what kind of faith did they have? They just had faith in Jesus as a human prophet. They didn’t confess him to be God incarnate. They didn’t believe that. These are people who recognize that Jesus is a mighty prophet and they had faith in Jesus as a prophet and they were saved.
Trent:
So, by that logic then, will I be saved from sin if I believe Jesus is a prophet? Will Muslims be saved because they believe Jesus is a prophet? They believe Jesus is a prophet, are they going to be saved by that kind of faith in Jesus to lead them to Allah? This goes back to the thief on the cross a bit. Think about the thief on the cross, “Today you’ll be with me in paradise,” he quote, unquote believed in Jesus. I would ask Josh, “Well, what do I have to believe about Jesus to be saved? Do I have to believe that he’s God? Do I have to believe in the Trinity? Do I have to believe that he is God and he is Lord? He is my Lord and savior and died on the cross for me? Is that what the thief on the cross believed?” The thief on the cross probably just believed that Jesus was a mighty prophet of God, to go and serve in God’s kingdom, and someone who is that close to God would be able to secure mercy for him and intercede for him.
Trent:
There’s no reason to believe that the thief on the cross recognized the divinity of Christ. I mean, Christ could have revealed that to him in his heart, for sure, but the text says nothing about it. So here, if you’re going to take these exceptions, you have people who recognize Jesus as a prophet and they’re saved from natural evil, or even from spiritual evil, does that mean that’s all we have to do? Well no, Christ is, and the scriptures, as Josh would say, have fully revealed to us what we are to believe about Christ, and how we’re to live as Christians. Well, then you can’t just take these singular examples and draw a whole soteriology, or theology of salvation, out of them. And so we have to look at the entire picture.
Josh:
Written the just shall live by. Faith, not by sacraments, by faith. Romans 1:17, “The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe or have faith.” Romans 3:22, “He demonstrates his righteousness that he is just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” Romans 3:26, “It is by faith, not of works, lest any man should boast,” and the Roman Catholic will say, “Yes, but James says that a man is also justified by his work.” These are not liturgical works James references. One of the works James talks about is from a harlot letting people out a window. That’s not a liturgical or a sacramental work. This wasn’t a ceremonial work, it is the proof that she had real faith. Yes, real faith will be demonstrated in action. But the action didn’t save her, it proved that she had real faith. What action did the thief on the cross do? He confessed with his mouth and believed in his heart. That’s what he did.
Trent:
Wait. Wait, wait, wait. He is referring here to Romans 10:9, if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, you’ll be saved. Paul says that. But the thief on the cross doesn’t say that. He just says, “Remember me when you come into your kingdom.” So here, when we’re talking about faith, we have to understand what these words mean, and I would say allegiance is actually a better translation of pestis than faith, but let’s also talk about work. In Greek, ergo, work. That it’s funny he’s created this dichotomy or this classification that “Oh, well James is only talking about works of mercy,” I guess would be the term. He’s not actually talking about quote, there’s like, there’s liturgical works or sacramental works, and then there’s works of morality, and James has no concern about sacramental works. No, he just says “Work.”
Trent:
So I would ask Josh, what is a work? What is a work? And there’s a simple definition I’ll give for work. A work is that which we do that pleases God. So, while I guess those are good works, because you could have works of iniquity, works of unrighteousness. Works are what we do, right? A work is what we freely choose to do as human beings. And a good work, or the Greek agato ergo, I think. Ergon is work, but you have to, the Greek clench in there. A good work, then, would be something we do that pleases God. So under that definition even, faith is a work.
Trent:
Hebrews chapter 11 says, “It is impossible to please God without faith.” So faith, believing in God, confessing with our mouth, that in itself is a work. But James is talking about here, about things that we do to cooperate with God, specifically with being obedient to God. James talks about the royal law that we are under. You’ll hear some people say that, “Well, the Old Covenant is about law, the New Covenant is about grace.” Yeah, the law of Moses. But we still have the New Testament refers to the law of Christ or the royal law that we are under to keep the commandments in their perfected, fulfilled form, through the grace that Christ has given us. And if we choose to not do that, if we choose to not obey, then we find ourselves cutoff from Christ. And that’s the clear message of the New Testament from beginning to end.
Josh:
Have faith in Jesus. So, the household of Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit before they’re baptized. Again, that’s proof that this sacrament of baptism had nothing to do with their salvation. They were saved before they were baptized. The thief on the cross wasn’t baptized. He didn’t do any good works. You know what he did? He said, “Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom.” That’s what he said. Just like the paralytic, when they saw the faith of them coming to Jesus he said, “Be of good cheer, your sins are forgiven you.” “For what is the scripture say?” Says Paul in Romans four, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Josh:
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the unGodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. Just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works, “Blesses are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and those who are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin, for we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.” Listen, how then was it accounted? While he was circumcised or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith, which he had, while still uncircumcised that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised. That righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of the circumcision to those who are of the uncircumcision.
Josh:
Abraham did not undergo some sacramental ritual before he was saved, or before he was accounted as righteous. His righteousness was accounted to him before he ever underwent the right or the ritual of circumcision. His faith him well. His faith healed him. His faith is what saved him. Circumcision was just a seal of the faith. It came afterward. His faith is what saved him.
Trent:
Okay, so now we’re getting into Paul and the debate about faith and works in Paul. And what happens here is, and this happens a lot, especially with people like Josh, who are taking what scholars call the old perspective on Paul, into consideration. Under this view, Paul is someone who struggled with sin and guilt, and he felt freedom in Christ, because there’s no way he could keep the law and so, but it’s by faith that we’re saved, not by any works that we do. We’re not trying to earn our salvation, rather just through faith we’re saved. And that was freeing to Paul. And so his main concern between faith and works is between people who are trying to earn their salvation through works, and people who simply receive it by faith. That’s the old perspective on Paul.
Trent:
Many protestant scholars, like N.T. Wright, James Dunn, E.P. Sanders, have come forward saying, “No. That’s not what Paul means when you study second temple Judaism.” Jews in the time of Paul and Jesus did not believe you could work your way to get into Heaven. They didn’t believe that you just had, as long as your good deeds outweighed your bad deeds you went to Heaven. They didn’t believe that at all. If you asked a Jew at that time, you’d say, “How do you get to Heaven?” They’d say, “It’s by grace. It’s by the grace of God. By being a part of his Covenant, by being a part of his chosen people.” And think about for Jews, the vast majority of Jews, both then and now, to be a part of the chosen people, what do you have to do? You can’t do anything. You’re born into it. You’re born into the chosen people. It was by the gift of God.
Trent:
Now, there were converts then, just as there are converts now, but except for very brief period in the first century, Protestantism was rare. Evangelization from Jews was rare. The vast majority of people who are Jews, are Jews through birth. And so, it’s something where you come into God’s chosen people through grace, and so things like circumcision for Jews were not a work you did to earn salvation. They were a badge of honor. They were a badge of honor showing that God had graced you to be a part of the chosen people. And what Paul is saying here, is “No, through Christ there is no longer the chosen people are no longer restricted to those who are born into Jewish families, but those who are moved by faith to believe in Christ.”
Trent:
And so the main thing, if you want to take this away from Paul, to understand Paul in Romans and Galatians and the faith works controversy is this, Paul was not, it was not about doing enough works to get into Heaven and saying, “No. You just have to believe.” For Paul, it was this, you don’t have to be a good Jew to be a good Christian. That was the error Paul was trying to drive out of people’s heads. Saying, “No. You don’t have to become a good Jew first, to become a good Christian.” That if someone had to keep circumcision to be a good Christian, they would have to become Jewish then in order to become Christian. Paul is saying, “No, we don’t need the works of the law anymore.” They were a paidagogos in Greek, a custodian. A Greek word that’s kind of like a Mary Poppins babysitter. That guided the people of God for centuries, but now on Christ they’re no longer needed. They have been fulfilled in Christ who through faith, we can become a part of that covenant.
Trent:
But it doesn’t follow that we are saved by faith alone, or there’s no other ways that we receive God’s grace through that covenant. So, that’s what’s going on here. And Paul is making this argument through Abraham, is his example in Romans chapter four. And as N.T Wright says in his commentary on this, Wright is a well known Protestant author, “This is not about saying that works have nothing to do with our eternal fate, or cooperating with God’s grace has nothing to do with that.” Wright says that all Paul is concerned about here is showing that look, Abraham was not somebody special God chose.
Trent:
It’s not like God found someone who already was circumcised, and somehow knew that this was the special right for them to undergo. No. God chose Abraham, he just wasn’t anyone special. God chose him. However, Abraham’s justification occurred over a process. It was a process that took place of him being justified. That’s why in James chapter two it talks about how Abraham was justified by works when he obeyed God to offer Isaac up as a sacrifice. That in obeying God and doing something very difficult, he increased his justification, before God in cooperating with God’s grace in order to do that.
Trent:
That contradicts the Protestant view that Abraham was justified in a single moment. Here’s what I wrote in my book, The Case for Catholicism, I’ll just read it actually verbatim, because it summarizes well. “Abraham was justified years before God mad a covenant with him in Genesis 15. When he answered God’s first call to follow him into a strange land in Genesis 12.” So, Romans four is about Abraham being justified in Genesis 15, but he was already justified before that point, when he answered the call to go to a strange land. Hebrews 11:8 said Abraham did so through a faith by which, according to verse two, men of old receive divine approval. This means Abraham was approved, became right, or was justified years before God made a covenant with him in Genesis 15:6. This shows justification occurs throughout the life of a person who lives by faith.
Trent:
So, remember Josh was quoting, I think it was Romans, what was it, Romans 1:16, which is a further call back to Habacuc 2:4, saying that the righteous will live by faith. That’s not saying that only by faith alone will you be righteous, rather the righteous person is someone who lives by faith, and continually live out their faith. And their faith doesn’t automatically make them do it. Like it turns them into a puppet to go, rather their justification is not a single process, it’s not a single act, but it’s a process that can grow and strengthen over time, as we cooperate with God and obey him through our walk of faith. Which we always walk by faith, but in obedience to God.
Josh:
You are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Now understand, it’s not the water that saves you. The word baptize or baptiso simply means to immerse. Those of you who were immersed into Christ. Cornelius and his household were immersed into Christ before they were dipped in water. The Holy Spirit was given to them, why? Because they had faith. Faith before baptism. The baptism didn’t save them. They were baptized into Christ by their faith. The water was the confirmation or an outward sign.
Trent:
No, the faith, and also the Catholic teaches about adult baptism and even infant baptism, it is faith is what moves us to baptism. We don’t approach baptism on our own, either as adults, like I did, or parents for their children. They do it because the faith that God has given them, even as small as a mustard seed, moves them towards that. But just because it is faith that moves us to baptism, it doesn’t follow that faith saves us at that moment. Faith moves us to that which will save us, which is baptism. Very clear, and that’s what Paul refers to here in Galatians, and even more clearly in Romans, which we’ll get to here, but let’s let Josh unspool a little.
Josh:
If you think water saves you, then the blood of Jesus is insufficient, and you have a false Jesus.
Trent:
Then first, then Peter has a false Jesus. He says baptism now saves you, in First Peter 3:21. But is it the case that Paul is not talking about baptism in these verses. That Paul just sees baptism as a mere outward confirmation of a salvafic act that already took place? No. Let’s go to what Paul actually said here. First what he says in Galatians 3:26 through 28, remember what I talked about here, what Paul’s big concern is about, is not about believing and doing good deeds to get to God, it’s you got to be a good Jew to be a good Christian. So, it was Paul saying here, “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian,” Paidagogos, the Old Testament law, “For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith,” Don’t got to be a good Jew to be a good Christian, “And how do you enter into,” Remember Colossians chapter two says that it is baptism which is replaced the sign of circumcision.
Trent:
So, what is the sign? What is that which brings you into the New Covenant? So that we all can be sons of God. You don’t have to be circumcised, what do you do? “For as many of you as you were baptized into Christ, have put on Christ.” So, here, if it was just faith, now that faith has come we are no longer under a custodian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith, for as many of you as you were… If faith was issue Paul could just say, “For as many of you believed in Christ have put on Christ.” He could have just said it right there.
Trent:
Why does it say baptism? Because baptism is where we put on Christ, so that there is neither Jew nor Greek. You don’t have these divisions that were created by the signs of the Old Covenant like circumcision or the dietary laws, or things like that. And we know that Paul means this because is it clearly driven home in Romans chapter six. Roman six Paul says, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death. We’re buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, we too might walk in newness of life.”
Trent:
Douglas Moo who is a Protestant theologian at I think Wheaten, Wheaten College. He says a few scholars have denied any reference to water baptism here. And Josh would be a person who would be in that camp. Arguing that baptize means immerse in a metaphorical sense, or that Paul refers to baptism in the spirit, or that he uses baptize as a metaphor for incorporation into the body of Christ. But without discounting the possibility of allusions to one or more of these ideas, a reference to water baptism is primary.
Trent:
So, even Protestant scholars who examine what Paul is saying here in Roman six, it’s very clear. He’s not talking about baptism as a mere metaphor to immersing yourself in Christ, just believing in him. You’re actually immersed in water, it is through water that we are united to Christ in his death, because water, think about, go back to First Peter Three, water is a perfect typological symbol for our salvation, because it cleanses. Water cleanses, it removes sin. But water can kill. Water can drown people. It drowned the people in Noah’s flood. So, water kills our old self. We die to Christ. The old self is drowned, and the new self then rises out from there, united to Christ. And that makes sense with actual water, not just a metaphor about water.
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