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In this episode, Trent rebuts two dozen arguments against Peter and the papacy from Protestant apologist Todd Friel.
Narrator:
Welcome to the Council of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers.
Trent Horn:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Council of Trent Podcast. I’m your host, Catholic Answers Apologist and speaker Trent Horn. Today we’ll be rebutting a video from Todd Friel. He’s from the YouTube channel Wretched Radio, and the video is called 25 Reasons Peter Was Not the Pope. Now, Todd is entertaining, I will say, and some of the objections he raises are common ones that other Protestant apologists have raised against the idea of Peter having pre-eminent authority in the early church, and so serving as the basis for understanding the papacy. His other objections are a bit more idiosyncratic, but they’re still fun to address. So with that said, let’s take a look at Todd’s reasons and see what’s wrong with them.
Todd Friel:
Number 25, Jesus wasn’t installing Peter as the first Papa. He was being clever. Got to know just a wee bit of Greek here. Peter is the Greek word Petras, a small stone, a little rock. Very small rocks, masculine gender when we used to actually have genders, and on this rock I will build my church is the word boulder, Petra, a mountain peak, the feminine gender, the boulder is the confession, not Peter. So if I could paraphrase it, Jesus was saying, “You’re just a little tiny stone, but on this massive confession that was revealed to you by my father, I’m going to build my church on that.” Jesus wasn’t saying, “Go take over my church, Peter.” He was using Peter’s confession to say, “I’m building my church on myself.”
Trent Horn:
This argument first shows up in William Cathcart’s 1872 book, the Papal System, but modern Protestant Greek scholars admit there’s no difference between the Greek words, Petros and Petra. D.A. Carson says, “Although it is true that Petros and Petra can mean small stone and large rock respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry.” John Calvin even said, “There is no difference of meaning, I acknowledge, between the two Greek words, Petros and Petra.” Also, Jesus was probably speaking Aramaic, not Greek. Since we know from John 1:42 that Jesus called Simon the Aramaic word for rock, [foreign language 00:02:36] or [foreign language 00:02:38]. The 5th century Syriac translation of the Bible uses the same word, [foreign language 00:02:44] or [foreign language 00:02:44], depending on how you pronounce it both times in that sentence. The Lutheran scholar, Oscar Coleman, simply put it this way, “Petra equals [foreign language 00:02:54] equals Petros.”
Todd Friel:
Number 24. Jesus’ phrasing, it makes it really clear that he was making a contrast, a play on words. Besides, if Jesus were installing Peter as the Pope, then he was the first person to transition by becoming a feminine gender, a more natural way for Jesus to say, “Hey, I’m installing you, Peter, I’m building my church on you,” would’ve been for him to say, “I’m building my church on you,” but he didn’t.
Trent Horn:
I think what Todd is saying is that if Peter were the rock in Matthew 16:18, then Matthew would’ve used the masculine form of the Greek word rock both times in the verse or Petros. But in Greek, like other languages, the fact that a noun is masculine or feminine does not mean the thing in question is masculine or feminine. They’re not related. For example, the Greek word for manliness is Andrea, which is actually a feminine noun. This does change when you use nouns for people’s names. Once again, the Protestant scholar, D.A. Carson says, “The Greek makes the distinction between Petros and Petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine, Petra could not very well serve as a masculine name,” so there’s no reason Matthew would’ve used the specific word Petros twice in this verse, and what he did use perfectly conveys Jesus’ message that the church would be built on Simon, who is now called Rock, or Peter.
Todd Friel:
Number 23, Jesus who in Matthew 16:21, just a couple of verses later, he really disses the brand-new Pope. He tells the disciples, “I have to go to Jerusalem. This is my mission to go and be killed for the forgiveness of sins.” Verse 22, Peter, the new pope, took him aside and said, “Oh no, you are not,” but Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get behind me, vicar of Christ.” No, he actually called him Satan, “You’re a stumbling block to me for you’re not setting your mind on God’s interest, but on man’s interest.” Jesus calls Peter Satan, an offense, a scandal on a stumbling block that isn’t the proper way to address the Holy Father. Shouldn’t Jesus have known better than to call his vicar Satan?
Trent Horn:
Peter was assuming the traditional Jewish view that the Messiah would conquer rather than suffer, and so Jesus corrected him on that point. In fact, Jesus needed to rebuke Peter publicly because in that instant, as he often did, Peter spoke for all of the apostles and he would become the leader of the entire church. According to the Protestant scholars, W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann, they write, “To deny the preeminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from the preeminence, rather it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure, his behavior would’ve been a far less consequence.” In other words, the fact that scripture focuses so much on Peter’s successes and failures is because Peter had such a central role in the life of the early church.
Todd Friel:
Number 22, Jesus identifies who’s the greatest in the kingdom. In Matthew 18, the disciples came and said, “Who’s on the top of the pile?” Why would they ask if they knew that Peter was the greatest in the kingdom? If he were the Pope, he’s the greatest. No need to ask that question. And Jesus didn’t scold them by saying, “Who’s the greatest? I just told you Peter’s the Pope, honor him.”
Trent Horn:
First, the disciples didn’t even have a full grasp of Jesus’s Messianic mission, so it’d be no surprise that they might not fully understand Peter’s role in the future new covenant kingdom. Second, Jesus does say there will be a greatest among them. If the Protestant position on the papacy were correct, we would expect Jesus to say something like, “There is no greatest among you, for you are all equally shepherds of my flock,” or something like that. Instead, Jesus indicated there would be a greatest, and this person must act as the servant of all. That’s why since the 6th century, popes have called themselves in Latin, [foreign language 00:07:40], or servant of the servants of God. In the parallel passage in Luke 22, Jesus begins with talking about the greatest among the apostles, and then he immediately transitions to talking to Peter and saying that even though Satan was after all of the apostles, Jesus prayed specifically for Peter’s faith to not fail, and that it was Peter’s role to strengthen his brethren because he’s the leader of the apostles.
Todd Friel:
Number 21. Jesus then describes the greatest in the kingdom and it ain’t the office of the Papacy 18:4, Jesus tells them, whoever humbles themselves like a child is the greatest in the kingdom. Have you seen the Pope’s wardrobe? The greatest in the kingdom is the most humble, not the most pompous. Jan Hus, one of the early martyrs, he was a Roman Catholic priest who got the gospel of grace. He had a painting in the back of his church, so here’s the pulpit, here’s the back of the church. There was a painting of Jesus, meek and lowly riding on a donkey. On the other side was the Pope in all of his grandiosity, riding on a stallion, making the point it’s not the pompous that are exalted, it is the humble.
Trent Horn:
You can be exalted and still be humble. Philippians 2:9-10 says, “God has highly exalted him,” Jesus, “And bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow.” Jesus told the apostles, “As my father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.” Humility doesn’t come from how you’re dressed or even your station in life. It comes from your heart’s desire to glorify God rather than yourself. In fact, Pope Francis has been an excellent model of this humility when you see the simple apartment he lives in and the simple papal clothes he wears, even though he has such an important place in Christ’s church.
Todd Friel:
Number 20, there was that whole denying the Lord three times business. Not very papal. Not becoming of the Holy Father.
Trent Horn:
Popes aren’t perfect, but that doesn’t take away from their position in Christ’s church. In fact, Peter’s denial of Jesus became an opportunity for Jesus to formally give ecclesial authority to St. Peter. That’s why in John 21, Jesus asked Peter three times, does he love him? And then Jesus asked Peter to feed my lambs, tend my sheep and feed my sheep.
In his academic study of Peter’s role in John’s gospel, Bradford Blaine Jr. says the following, “Although the three professions of love do allow him to mitigate some of the damage of the three denials, they function primarily as warrants for the three pastoral responsibilities Peter receives: feeding lambs, tending sheep and feeding sheep. I concur with the biblical scholar, Herman Ritterbos that, “Jesus has sought not so much Peter’s triple retraction of his denial, and even less to embarrass him again before the other disciples. It is rather what awaits Peter in the future that prompts Jesus to reinforce his ties with him as never before.” The Lutheran scholar Joachim Jeremias also says, “Only in John 21:15 through 17, which describes Peter’s appointment as a shepherd by the risen Lord, does the whole church appear to have been in view as the sphere of activity.”
Todd Friel:
Number 19, Paul actually rebuked Pope Peter in Galatians Chapter 2. Not very honoring, Paul.
Trent Horn:
In this case, Peter acted cowardly, not unusual for him because he didn’t want to offend the Jewish Christians by dining with the Gentile Christians. So, St. Paul called him out for that behavior. But as the Protestant theologian, Thomas Shriner puts it, quote, “Peter and Paul still agreed theologically. Paul rebukes Peter because the latter acted against his convictions.”
Also in the context of Galatians, Paul is rebutting the charge that he only preaches what people want to hear because he’s apparently a people pleaser. Paul instead says that his message came from God, not men, and he doesn’t care about who he offends. I like that. He even told Peter to his face he was wrong. That’d be like telling a staffer at the White House, “You’re just a yes man. You just say yes to everybody.” To which the staffer says, “I always tell people when they’re wrong. I even told the president he made a mistake.” That doesn’t take away from the president’s authority. Instead, the staffer is making the point that he holds other people accountable even if they have the highest positions of authority. And the same point can be said about St. Paul and St. Peter’s relationship.
Todd Friel:
Number 18, Peter didn’t identify himself as the Pope when he called himself a bond servant and a fellow elder. Peter or anyone else in the 1st century never called him Holy Father or the chief apostle or the bishop of, I need to breathe again, the supreme pastor, his holiness, supreme pontiff, father of kings, vicar of Christ, [inaudible 00:13:18], that is usurping glory from the one who is building his own church.
Trent Horn:
No one in the 1st century referred to Jesus as God the son or the second person of the Trinity, but the absence of those titles does not disprove Jesus being those things. In I Peter Chapter 5, Peter is telling other elders in the church to be humble. He writes, “Clothe yourselves with humility toward one another.” Every pope is a priest, so calling himself a fellow priest while addressing priests does not disprove his authority anymore than the President does not disprove his authority when he says something like, “My fellow Americans.” St. Paul referred to himself as a deacon in I Corinthians 3:5, and said that he was the very least of all the saints in Ephesians 3:8 but that didn’t disprove St. Paul’s authority as an apostle. Finally, there is a reference to Peter having a chief or primary role. Matthew 10:2 says, “The names of the 12 apostles are these, first,” or in Greek [foreign language 00:14:25], “Simon, who is called Peter.” The Protestant author, John MacArthur says, “[foreign language 00:14:31], doesn’t refer to the first in a list. It speaks of the chief, the leader of the group.”
Todd Friel:
Number 17, Peter actually shunned the idea of receiving glory, Acts Chapter 3. When Peter saw this, he replied to the people, men of Israel, “Why are you amazed at this? Why do you gaze at us as if by our own power or piety that we can heal somebody?” The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers has glorified the Pope. No, his servant Jesus.
Trent Horn:
No Christian, even the Pope, can heal someone by his own power. Only God can do that when they work through the person. So Peter is demonstrating his holy humility by giving glory to God, which we’d expect the vicar of Christ to do. Also, Acts II and Acts III show St. Peter’s role in the early church in that Peter gives the first apostolic sermons that convert thousands of people. That’s why the Protestant author J.N.D Kelly says, quote, “Peter was the undisputed leader of the youthful church.”
Todd Friel:
Number 16 reason, Peter understood who the rock is. This is I Peter 2. It’s named after Peter, “Behold, I lay in Zion,” he’s quoting an Old Testament text, “A choice stone, a precious cornerstone, and he who believes in that stone will not be disappointed. This precious value then is for you who believe, but for those who disbelieved the stone, which the builders rejected,” not Peter, but Jesus, “This became the very cornerstone.” Peter knew who the foundation and the cornerstone was.
Number 15, even if Jesus were referring to Peter as the rock, what did Peter preach? The foundation of the church is the apostles teaching about the Christ. It wasn’t about the apostles themselves. Peter got that.
Number 14, Paul confirmed Ephesians chapter two, Jesus is the cornerstone, not Peter, “You are no longer strangers and aliens. You are fellow citizens with the saints and are of God’s household having been built on Peter,” no, “On the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole building being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord.” In other words, Jesus is the one on whom the church is built.
Trent Horn:
Todd, symbols can have more than one meaning, especially when they’re used in different writings. For example, the Bible says that Christ is the foundation of the church, but it also says in Ephesians 2:20 that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles, and in I Timothy 3:15 it says that the church is the foundation of the truth. So there is no contradiction in Peter being the rock upon which the church is built and Christ being the cornerstone of God’s new covenant. Every human authority in the church is ultimately rooted in Christ’s authority over the church.
Todd Friel:
Number 13, Paul made it clear again who the foundation is. I Corinthians 3, “According to the grace of God given to me like a wise master builder, I laid Peter down,” no, “I laid a foundation, the new Pope,” no, “I laid a foundation and another is building on it, but each man must be careful how he builds on it, for no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is,” no my Roman Catholic friend, it’s Jesus Christ.
Trent Horn:
In I Corinthians 3, St. Paul is dealing with factions in the Corinthian church. Some people’s ultimate loyalty was to who baptized them or to who founded their local church. But Paul tells them, “For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving like ordinary men, for when one says, I belong to Paul and another I belong to Apollos, are you not merely men? He who plants and he who waters are equal and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.”
The fact that Christ is the church’s ultimate foundation does not mean the church lacks a hierarchy built upon Christ. For example, St. Paul acknowledges that some of the apostles have more authority than others. He does this when he refers to St. Peter, James and John as the pillars in the church. In I Corinthians 9:5, Paul says that he and Barnabas have the right to have material and personal support on their missions, just like, quote, “As the other apostles and the brethren of the Lord and [foreign language 00:19:37].” So in this case, Paul is ordering people from lesser to greater authority, going from the other apostles to the brethren, the Lord, and finally to the one in the greatest position of authority, [foreign language 00:19:51] or St. Peter.
Todd Friel:
Number 12, Paul scolded, scorched, crushed, demolished, that’s to use contemporary YouTube lingo, the Corinthians, for giving devotion to a man, and that list included Peter himself. If Peter were to receive praise, were to have his own followers, building his own church, Paul would not have admonished the Corinthians to not give any man worship.
Trent Horn:
This one is really going to come back to bite Todd. In I Corinthians Chapter 1: verses 10 through 12, Paul says, “I appeal to you brethren by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment, for it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. What I mean is that each one of you says, I belong to Paul or I belong to Apollos, or I belong to [foreign language 00:20:54] or I belong to Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”
So according to Todd’s argument, if it’s wrong to say we follow Peter as the leader of the church, then it would also be wrong to say we follow Christ as the leader of the church, if we’re basing it on what Paul says in this part of I Corinthians. Saying you belong to Peter is as bad as saying you belong to Christ, if by saying that you want to divide the body of Christ, but if you recognize that the body of Christ is truly one body with different members that serve different purposes, then it’s not wrong to recognize the different roles that every member of the body of Christ serves.
Todd Friel:
Number 11, the Old Testament, it identified the rock as divine, not human. That’s the sound effect for all of these verses. Listen to some select verses from just one Psalm, “I love you, oh Lord, my strength, the Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock in whom I take refuge, and who is a rock except our God?” Did I mention this is the Old Testament?
“The Lord lives and blessed be my rock and exalted be the God of my salvation.” Now, Isaiah picks up on this boulder theme, therefore, thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I’m laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone.” Do we think that he was prophesying about Peter? A costly cornerstone for the foundation firmly placed, he who believes in Peter? No. He who believes in it will not be disturbed. It is impossible to imagine Isaiah had Peter in mind. He was referring to the Messiah.
Trent Horn:
Once again, symbols can have multiple meanings in scripture. For example, the Old Testament does not restrict the symbol of a rock to God alone. Isaiah 51:1 through 2 says, “You who seek the Lord look to the rock from which you were hewn and to the quarry from which you were digged. Look to Abraham, your father and to Sarah, who bore you.”
So, here we have a case of the patriarch Abraham being called a rock from which the Jewish people were carved. That shows that the rock metaphor can be applied both to God and to human beings. What’s more astounding is that Isaiah 22:22 has a direct parallel to Matthew 16:18. God speaking through the prophet, Isaiah says, “I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open and none shall shut, and he shall shut and none shall open.” Jesus uses the same structure to say of St. Peter in Matthew 16:19, “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” For more on this intertextual evidence, see the great work that [inaudible 00:24:01] has done with this argument.
Todd Friel:
Number 10, the early church honored the teaching of the apostles, but not the apostles themselves. The Bible tells me so. They were continually devoting themselves to Peter and his bishops with big hats. No, to the apostles teaching to fellowship, breaking a bread and prayer.
Trent Horn:
Acts Chapter 5, verses 12 through 15 says, “Now, many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles, and they were all together in Solomon’s portico. None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high honor. And more than ever, believers were added to the Lord multitudes, both of men and women, so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and pallets that, as Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on some of them.”
Even today, people don’t usually hope that the Pope’s shadow will cure them of illnesses, but this is clearly a case of honoring the apostles because of the authority Christ gave them. Also, the Episcopal miter, fancy hats, it’s not necessary for someone to be honored as having Christ’s authority. Christ himself said of the apostles in Luke 10:16, “He who hears you hears me,” and in the year 106 A.D, Ignatius of Antioch said, “You are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ. It is therefore necessary that as you indeed do, so without the bishop, you should do nothing.”
Todd Friel:
Number nine, silence testifies Peter wasn’t a pope. If Jesus were alluding to the Pope. It’s interesting that we don’t have any verses that describe or define an office that is so crucial, nor do you see a succession plan for an unbroken chain of popes. Silence speaks volumes.
Trent Horn:
Prior to his ascension into heaven, Jesus never tells anyone to write anything down. We see no hint that the authority for future believers will be a collection of particular writings. So, while we do have Jesus giving the apostles authority and saying they will sit on thrones and judge the tribes of Israel, and that Peter will have the office of chief steward, we see nothing comparable when it comes to scripture and the new covenant.
If Todd keeps this argument from silence, then he’s going to destroy any case for [foreign language 00:26:34]. And if he makes exceptions to the argument for scripture’s authority, then that’s going to include enduring apostolic authority based on the evidence we have in the New Testament and the early church. That’s why in the first century, Clement of Rome said, “Our apostles also knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife on account of the office of the Episcopate,” or the bishop, “For this reason, therefore, in as much as they had obtained a perfect foreknowledge of this, they appointed those ministers already mentioned and afterwards gave instructions that when these people should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.”
Todd Friel:
Number eight, Paul defines but two offices in the church: elders and deacon, not popes and cardinals.
Trent Horn:
Paul speaks about deacons, elders, and most importantly bishops. Paul doesn’t have to outline the office of Pope because the Pope is an elder or a bishop. In the 1st century, these offices were somewhat interchangeable in their titles. By the time that we get to the 2nd century, there is a clear consensus that they are distinct, and the bishops oversee the elders, especially in seeing the bishops taking on the role that had been reserved to the apostles. We can see this in the fact that St. James has this role as an apostle and as the bishop of Jerusalem where the council of Jerusalem was held.
Todd Friel:
Number seven, Jesus considered himself the rock and his teachings the foundation of the church, Matthew 7, this comes before Matthew 16, “Anyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.”
Trent Horn:
In this case, the rock is just a rock. Jesus is saying be like a smart person and not a dumb person. Even if the rock is symbolic of Christ or his words. Once again, symbols can have multiple meanings, as I’ve already shown, just because Jesus is called a rock in one part of scripture, like I Corinthians 11:26, that doesn’t mean that every rock is Jesus.
Todd Friel:
Number six, Jesus did not fight to the death against one form of legalism, the Pharisees, to put another worse set of rulers, popes, in its place.
Trent Horn:
Jesus’s problem with the Pharisees wasn’t their rules, it was their hypocrisy. He said in Matthew 23, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’s seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do for they preach but do not practice.” Jesus acknowledged the Pharisees’ lawful authority. He just warned people that the Pharisees failed to live up to their own teaching, so don’t imitate them. And this has happened with bad popes throughout the church’s history, but their bad behavior does not nullify the rightful authority Jesus gave to the apostles and their successors. Now, when it comes to Todd’s fourth and fifth reasons, he just cites other Protestants who said that the Pope is the antichrist, which is not going to be very compelling to anyone who doesn’t already believe that. So, let’s just skip ahead then to point number three.
Todd Friel:
And number three, just think about what the office of Papacy has concocted theologically: indulgences, maryology elevating a sinful woman like Mary to near or divine status, praying to saints, asking for their help, re-sacrificing Jesus on the altar when he is summoned down by a priest so that the elements can be turned into body and blood and he can be re-sacrificed, and they’ve added books to the Bible, and they’ve added works to grace. Why in the world would we believe that the office of the papacy was pure all the way back to Peter if that system has concocted heresy?
Trent Horn:
Saying Catholics re-sacrificed Christ, elevate Mary to divine status, and that we added books to the Bible, that only reveals that Todd doesn’t know church teaching or church history. It says nothing about the legitimacy of the papacy.
Todd Friel:
Number two, we’re getting very close, aren’t we? Jesus is not building his church on an institution that has a bloody and tawdry history. You can see our other videos on that long list.
Trent Horn:
If violence perpetrated by Catholics disproves Catholicism, then violence perpetrated by Protestants during Europe’s wars of religion disproves Protestantism. Cuts both ways. That means we should judge religion on its official teachings and its best examples, not caricatures or worst examples.
Todd Friel:
But finally, number one, the office of the papacy. What does it ultimately do? It robs Jesus of his glory, which he will not give to another.
Trent Horn:
God doesn’t share his divine glory with anyone, but Catholics do not glorify the Pope or any other human person. God does however, share his work in saving souls with us. In I Corinthians 3:9, St. Paul says of himself and the other apostles, “For we are God’s fellow workers,” and Hebrews 13:17 says, “Obey your leaders in submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as men who will have to give account.”
So the question ends up being this: who are the leaders that God gave us? Is it anybody, any Christian who calls himself a leader who calls himself a pastor, and God is that says he is calling them, we have to listen? Or is it the successors of the apostles that Jesus chose to preach the gospel to all nations? The Catholic or universal church is rooted in the latter idea, and that is what the church has believed for 2,000 years. So, I hope that this rebuttal was helpful for you, and if Todd would like to debate what a Christian’s ultimate authority is, I’d be happy to do that with him. But thank you guys so much and I hope you all have a very pleasant day.
Narrator:
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