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Father Hugh Barbour joins us to explain why Catholics have feast days that celebrate sadness. This time we cover the twin feasts of Christ’s Cross and Mary’s sorrow.
Cy Kellett:
Making feasts out of sorrowful things… Father Hugh Barber is next.
Hello and welcome to Catholic Answers Focus, the podcast for living, understanding, and defending the Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. In a certain sense, the Catholic faith is about turning from sorrow to celebration, but sometimes we quite literally celebrate sorrowful things. This month over two days, we celebrate the Exaltation of the Holy Cross and then the next day, the Feast of Our Lady of Sorrows. Father Hugh joins us for a conversation about these feasts and about why the hardships faced by Jesus and Mary are very much worth celebrating. Okay, Father, two important feasts in the middle of September. On Monday, September 14th, we have the Exaltation of the Holy Cross and on Tuesday, September 15th, Our Lady of Sorrows. I imagine that’s related, the cross being one of her sorrows. Can I start by asking you some questions about the Exaltation of the Holy Cross?
Father Hugh Barber:
Certainly.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. Are we celebrating the actual wooden cross or do we mean that symbolically? What are we exalting?
Father Hugh Barber:
Well, the wooden cross is symbolic, of course. And yes, we are celebrating the historical, several things. I mean, they’re all combined, especially in the current Roman liturgy, they are all combined on one feast day. But we’re celebrating the relic of the cross, the so called True Cross, which was found in Jerusalem by St. Helena, the mother of the Emperor Constantine. And for which the shrine was built, basically the Church of the Holy Sepulture, which covered and included Calvary and the tomb. And portions of that relic found by her were given also to the church in Rome and in Constantinople. Of course, the town named after her son could not be without its own relic.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, sure.
Father Hugh Barber:
And the one that was in Constantinople is now in the Cathedral Treasury of Limburg in Germany because at the time of the Crusades, some kind of Christians normally called Roman Catholics, they took it after they left there.
Cy Kellett:
This is such a Catholic thing, taking relics.
Father Hugh Barber:
Yeah, it’s called the [foreign language 00:02:23], sacred thefts. I mean, there a lot of that, theft of relics, but this is a very significant one. But the one in Rome is the original one she brought. The one in Jerusalem was later lost in Islamic times. But so there’s that discovery of the cross, which had its own separate feast day in May in the traditional calendar. But any case, the discovery of the cross and the veneration of that relic there, which is the origin of our rite of Adoration of the Cross on Good Friday and the whole Roman rite was it began with the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem where they would actually adore the wood of the original cross. And there are a lot of arguments for the authenticity of that relic, but I’m not going to go into it right now. The point is that’s what’s celebrated.
And then also the Relic was taken by the Persians and then was restored by a victory of Christian troops in the 600, and that is also celebrated on this feast day, and it probably has to do with the date, the reason why the date is what it is, that is they got the relic back from the Persians having stolen it. And so that was the celebration of that recovery of the relic. And the relic, of course, was the common possession of the whole church east and west and where all the pilgrims went and you have beautiful descriptions of the manner in which it was adored in the early church, in the travels of Egeria, the Spanish lady who made the Pilgrims of the Holy land. She describes how they did it on Good Friday and everything. So we have a very coherent liturgical description of all that went on.
But, of course, the feast is meant to be complimentary, and this is hinted in the liturgy, with August 6th, the Feast of the Transfiguration, because we have the same distance between the second Sunday of Lent when we read the Transfiguration and Good Friday and Easter in the Lenten period.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I see.
Father Hugh Barber:
There’s a little summer recapitulation with fixed feasts with August 6th, with the Transfiguration, and then the celebration of the Triumph at the Holy Cross, which of course includes the resurrection on the 14th of September. So there’s a little deliberate parallel there. And, of course, that those secondary fees are celebrated as commemorating secondary historical events that reveal the power of the cross and our Lord’s resurrection in Catholic history is also very appropriate. So August 6th, it’s the victory at Belgrade over the troops of the Sultan and September 14th it’s the victory over the Persians who had taken the Relic of the True Cross, and so there’s that historical reference, which when we celebrate the Holy Triduum, Good Friday and Easter, we’re not thinking of anything except those very events themselves and not how they were revealed or magnified or glorified throughout Christian history.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Father Hugh Barber:
And so there are various little pairs like that. And, of course, just like you have in this week, the week before this is being aired, the birth of Mary shortly celebrating, then later, a few days later, the Holy name of Mary, which is the birth and the naming, just like we had that with Jesus at Christmas time. So too, we have naturally secondary feasts that are suggested by the major ones. So you have the Exaltation of the Cross, and so who else? [crosstalk 00:05:43].
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
Now, this is called in the Eastern tradition called the [sonaxis 00:05:47] or the gathering, and they have many feasts where you have the feast day and then you’ll have the sonaxis that is the gathering of the saints that have to do with that feast.
Cy Kellett:
Yes, okay.
Father Hugh Barber:
And so that’s a typical thing that they have. They’ll celebrate. For example, Pentecost, the Sunday after, is called All Saints Day, because of course you have the ascension and the apostles’ enlightenment, and so then the Sunday after, which for us is Trinity Sunday, they call this the Sonaxis of the Apostles. So it’s a celebration of all the apostles. So there are many other feasts like that in the Byzantine calendar. One of the more charming ones in the Roman liturgy is in the traditional Roman liturgy you have the Preconciliar Missal. You have August 15th, the Feast of the Assumption of our Lady into heaven, which is their ultimate glorification.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Big feast.
Father Hugh Barber:
And then you consider, well, who would be the most proud of that glorious lady as she achieved this supreme triumph and became the queen of heaven and earth and everything else? Who would be the most proud and to be congratulated? Well, St. Joachim, her daddy, and so in the traditional calendar August 16th is St. Joachim.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, that’s a great little … What do you call it? Sonaxis?
Father Hugh Barber:
Sonaxis.
Cy Kellett:
Sonaxis.
Father Hugh Barber:
Sonaxis means the coming together. It’s also an old word for the celebration of the Eucharist.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
The sonaxis. It’s the gathering. So there are a lot of little things like that if you look carefully. Or like we had earlier, St. Mary Magdalene is on July 22nd and then July 29th it’s Martha along with Lazarus. And so there are all these little connections that we have. In the new calendar, you have St. Monica on the 27th of August, and then you have St. Augusta on the 28th. And those kinds of things where the saints that are associated to get to be celebrated together.
Cy Kellett:
So these two go together. Just before I go to the Feast of our Lady of Sorrows, the Exaltation of the Cross, the idea for us is that this is the instrument of our salvation.
Father Hugh Barber:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Cy Kellett:
I mean, I suppose it might almost appear perverse to someone who’s not Christian, but the celebration of the cross on which Christ died is the celebration of that which saves us.
Father Hugh Barber:
Right, because the instrument of salvation is not only the holy cross, but it’s the humanity of the son of God.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Father Hugh Barber:
Which acts as an instrument of salvation, and he’s the principle instrument. It is called “the conjoined instrument of the divinity,” St. Thomas calls it. So it’s like God is extending his action through this sacred humanity, which our Lord has united to himself in person. And so that humanity died upon the cross and intended to, from the beginning, the salvation of the human race in order to reveal his great love and to triumph over sin, death, and the devil. And we need to remember that’s a triumph, that’s a triumph.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Father Hugh Barber:
The cross is an exhortation.
Cy Kellett:
Right, right.
Father Hugh Barber:
It’s not only a reminder of what wretched sinners we are and how narrowly we escaped eternal death, it’s a sign that because Christ has triumphed, I do not have to remain a wretched sinner and I can easily escape eternal death.
Cy Kellett:
Right.Yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
So it’s a sign of triumph and we sometimes forget that and emphasize too much the suffering part and how dicey, what a dice throw our salvation is. This just edifies our Protestant brethren, at least it ought to edify, except those who think that the whole world is practically damned anyway. But they’re not, most of those folks.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Father Hugh Barber:
And it also leaves out the fact that the original Christianity at the time of the apostles, and of course at the time of Constantine and St. Helena, who found the True Cross, was a Christianity of the triumph of the cross, that because Christ is God made man and died for us and rose, sin, death, and hell have been overcome, period. That’s the message of Easter.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Father Hugh Barber:
And then we don’t go, “What about wine about people that end up in hell. What happens about them?” Well, just let’s say, there are ways of talking about that, but the fact is what we’re celebrating is a victory.
Cy Kellett:
Victory, yes.
Father Hugh Barber:
And if you’re really attached to the idea of most people being eternally damned, then maybe you haven’t meditated enough on the power of Christ’s cross and resurrection.
Cy Kellett:
Yes, right.
Father Hugh Barber:
So let’s not be too speculative and try to parse it out and figure out who I have to love and who I don’t have to love, because that’s the way I put it to people. If you’re talking about the number of the damned or whether someone is saved or everyone’s saved, or only a few or most, or whatever it is, you’re actually talking on the negative side of, how many people do I not have to love?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
Because if someone is determinately and everlastingly damned, it means they’re incapable of receiving love. And so you’re not obliged to give it to them.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
But I don’t like a world like that. I like to think that I should try to love everybody and with great hope. And some of the Eastern saints, especially they’re better at this, they’ll say, “We should even in a certain sense love the devil.” Well, now, our saints don’t go that far. Well, some of them do, but not that far. But the point is God still gives them existence, he still gives them all the good he can to which they do not pose an obstacle. And Christ’s death and resurrection is so triumphant that even the lost will be raised from the dead and raised in beautiful young bodies. Not in ghoulish forms.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Father Hugh Barber:
And so because the Lord gives everything he can to nature, and if personally, as opposed to just our having human nature, we keep opposing it, well, then there must be an explanation for that, but let’s just say we’re not going to talk about that today, but let’s just say Christianity is a religion of triumph, and we need to keep that in mind, and the Triumph of the Cross, which is perfect, it’s paradoxical, the triumph of a shameful, painful death and of what appeared from all human sides to be a failure and a betrayal, not only by the worst but also by some of the best.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
To be betrayed by the best people in the world is a little more painful to me that being betrayed by the worst.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Father Hugh Barber:
But our lady didn’t, and that’s why she stood at the foot of the cross and as you were moving on [crosstalk 00:11:53].
Cy Kellett:
Our Lady of Sorrow.
Father Hugh Barber:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
Darren was pointing out to me that this is one of the little funny things about Catholicism. It’s a feast of our Lady of Sorrows. It’s a strange … Feast is not what you associate with sorrows, but it’s a day where we remember her under that title, our Lady of Sorrows. So, first of all, why, why do we do that? And then maybe we’ll get to what, what are these sorrows that we remember?
Father Hugh Barber:
Well, you could say there’s an invocation of our lady in the litany of our lady, the official litany of our lady, so called of Loreto, And she’s invoked as cause of our joy.
Cy Kellett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Father Hugh Barber:
Pray for us. Spiritual vessel, pray for us. Vessel of honor, pray for us, and so on, but she’s the cause of our joy. Well, how is she the cause of our joy? Well, of course, first of all, because she accepted to become the mother of God’s son, but accepting that she also accepted the prophecy of Simeon and, “Your soul too a sword shall pierce to the thoughts of many hearts be revealed.” And your son has given as a sign of contradiction and all of that. So she knew from the beginning that her acceptance of her role, which is a great boon, the great boon for the human race, she was also accepting a great burden of sorrow because that sorrow, the sorrow of her earthly sufferings, lived alongside the son of God in his silent years at Nazareth, and then in his public ministry, and then finally in his passion, 30 years, three years, three hours, and then three days, all of that, all those threes.
She shared in the causality, that is the bringing about of our joy. And in no place is this more evident than, in fact, in accepting the sufferings of sorrows that God sent her way throughout the course of her life, in her true vocation, her greatest and biggest vocation of all vacations, to be the mother of God’s only son. So we can celebrate it as a feast because we’re celebrating what made all this possible?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Father Hugh Barber:
What is the real root of all of this? And we would celebrate, we’d have a feast day celebrating the fall of Adam and Eve if we could.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. You just can’t.
Father Hugh Barber:
The most we do is we say at Easter …
Cy Kellett:
Oh, happy fault.
Father Hugh Barber:
Oh, happy fault, a certainly necessary sin of Adam. Now go figure that out, if you want to hit your head against the wall. You think about the number of the damned, that’s one thing, but in what sense is the sin of Adam necessary but which merited such and so great a redeemer?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
So we celebrated at Easter because we don’t celebrate evil things but we do celebrate the fact that God, in the face of evil, accomplishes very, very good things? God doesn’t draw good out of evil, he just makes evil an opportunity for him to do something good. It’s an important distinction. People keep forgetting it and they say, “Oh, God brings good out of evil.” It’s not a very precise way of saying it because evil doesn’t produce good.
Cy Kellett:
Mm-hmm (negative).
Father Hugh Barber:
Good produces everything. Even how to get around the fact that someone has blotted a copy book or marred the statue or wrecked something that was already good and perfect. So God brings good out of this evil. Well, our lady, as we were saying we should not say, and so our lady is the cause of our salvation along with her son and under her son, of course, and therefore she is the cause of our joy. And so we can celebrate as a feast not only as a fast.
Cy Kellett:
Is it fair to say, or correct me if I’m wrong, but you think of the innocence of Jesus and the innocence of Mary, both innocent of any sin, that there’s a way in which those who are innocent are capable of greater sorrow in a sense, because they are undefended, they live in an innocence in which they do not defend their hearts the way we do with all kinds of strategies and even sinful habits, in a sense, we dull our hearts and they don’t. And so when you think of the sorrows of Mary, they’re very great sorrows in part because of her innocence of sin, is that a fair way to think of that?
Father Hugh Barber:
Definitely, because the sin and our fallen nature, they make us so defensive.
Cy Kellett:
Calloused a little bit.
Father Hugh Barber:
Well, and also just constantly irascible and aware of the unfairness of it all.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right.
Father Hugh Barber:
So when we start suffering, we can’t even pay attention to what’s actually happening because we’re so focused on how we feel about how someone is feeling or acting or whatever in our regard and so we’re not just letting it happen.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
And we know sometimes, for example, when someone is behaving in a way, which we’d rather that the person not behave, that takes all of our attention and we take it personally instead of realizing, why don’t I just let this person get it all out and do what they’re going to do, climb Fool’s Hill, as my mother used to say? “Just let him climb Fool’s Hill. He’s got to climb it.” And then do the good that we’re able to do, because we need to focus on overcoming evil not on the nature of evil or how unreasonable it is or all the other stuff, because then it’ll just get angry.
Cy Kellett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Father Hugh Barber:
And that’s one of the problems why we have such a hard time with just relaxing and dealing with these things. So our lady and our Lord, you were avoiding the word because it’s overused nowadays, but they were vulnerable.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Father Hugh Barber:
They were able to be wounded.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Really wounded, yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
And they didn’t stop themselves from being wounded. In fact, compared to them, no one has ever been wounded in the history of the world.
Cy Kellett:
That’s what I was trying. Very well said, Father. Thank you.
Father Hugh Barber:
And [Berdeno 00:18:10], the great French Catholic writer, he [inaudible 00:18:15], this old canon, is describing our lady’s attitude towards sinners. And he says, “She’s our elder sister and she’s completely sinless and spotless and innocent. And so when she looks on us, while we’re sending, she never leaves us.” She doesn’t take her eyes off us like, “I can’t look at that. He’s disgusting.”
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Father Hugh Barber:
She just looks on us with a pained wonder like, “Why do they act like this?”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Father Hugh Barber:
But not with disgust or anger.
Cy Kellett:
No.
Father Hugh Barber:
She’s enduring. She’s sharing in a way, the shame of the sinner, because it’s like, “Oh, I feel so sorry for you. Why are you doing that to yourself?”
Cy Kellett:
Right, right.
Father Hugh Barber:
Instead of you, “You wretched worm, I’m going to smash you and throw you into the fire.”
Cy Kellett:
I smite thou.
Father Hugh Barber:
And those images all have their place and our Lord even uses them but I think he uses them with a heart of hard. Our Lord uses harsh imagery because it is under lane by his immense compassion.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Father Hugh Barber:
Because he puts his money where his mouth is. He really endures everything for our sake. A good thing to read in this regard, which you could apply also to our lady, all things being equal, is Cardinal Newman’s, St. John Henry Newman’s beautiful treatise on the mental sufferings of our Lord.
Cy Kellett:
Oh.
Father Hugh Barber:
It’s called On The Mental Sufferings of Christ in his Passion. It’s online. You can find it. Have you read it, Cy?
Cy Kellett:
Oh yeah. You gave it to me. You gave it to me to read a few years ago and I still haven’t gotten over it.
Father Hugh Barber:
It’s eye opening and heart opening and it gives us an understanding of what the sufferings of Jesus. And I said, all things being equal, in our own measure, the sufferings of Mary, and indeed of all the great saints. [inaudible 00:19:53]. And he was so real because he suffered constantly for sinners, constantly and constantly. And yet he could be extremely frank, gruff, even a little irritable. He had his own personality. He wasn’t exactly suave. He wasn’t Francis de Sales, Let’s put it that way. [crosstalk 00:20:18].
Cy Kellett:
Who is though?
Father Hugh Barber:
[foreign language 00:20:18], and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, I mean, the saints were very different. He was the type that would whack you over the head.
Cy Kellett:
A little more Jerome-esque.
Father Hugh Barber:
Tell you you’re an idiot. Oh my goodness. St. Jerome, are you kidding? He was the life of the party for all the rich women.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
Father Hugh Barber:
Oh, yes.
Cy Kellett:
I always think of him as so grumpy.
Father Hugh Barber:
Yeah, grumpy. Grumpy with his fellow clerics.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, okay.
Father Hugh Barber:
But followed continually by a coterie of devout women, rich devout women who funded his monastery and everything else. And we love St. Jerome, but let’s just say he is a type. He is a type. He is a type.
Cy Kellett:
I guess we all are in a sense.
Father Hugh Barber:
Yes. I mean, Augustine is the serious cleric and bishop and founder of religious life. Jerome is just, I mean, you’d have to use the Jungian personality types or something. And I’ve said that just to say it. Don’t get too excited out there. Something complicated in order to explain how the saints are also different and yet they’re all holy.
Cy Kellett:
So the seven sorrows, I don’t know that I could remember them, but I could try.
Father Hugh Barber:
Well, the seven sorrows come about by a tradition of devotion to our lady that comes from the Middle Ages, latent Middle Ages. There also were the joys of Mary as well. And so basically the Dominicans had the rosary, which covers pretty much everything, and with J.P. Two’s addition, St. J.P. Two, I should say, edition of the Luminous Mysteries really covers it all, although St. Louis de Montfort read all those other mysteries from the Luminous Mysteries into the others, if you look at his thoughts for each Hail Mary. So it wasn’t something new, God forbid. But then the Franciscan [inaudible 00:22:01] Dominican’s had everything, the Franciscans then started their crown, which was the crown of the joys of Mary. So there were six or seven joys, more than five. It had to be more than five.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, because five is the rosary number.
Father Hugh Barber:
Right, right. And then the [inaudible 00:22:18] then decided to do the sorrows. They’re a little later than the Franciscans. And so what could they do with the sorrows? “Oh, well, we’ll do seven sorrows.” So that’s what they did, seven sorrows. And with the rosary with seven home Hail Mary’s for the undecad, for the set tad, or whatever.
Cy Kellett:
oh.
Father Hugh Barber:
Hedad, it would have to be because it’s Greek. Hedad. That just means a group of seven. And so it was a product of the devotion of the Middle Ages. So the seven part of it is not really in the Feast of our Lady of Sorrows.
Cy Kellett:
I see. Okay.
Father Hugh Barber:
Liturgically, technically, that comes in a little later. It certainly was restored a little bit on the Friday of the fifth week of Lent. There’s an optional call for mass, because that used to be a feast of its seven sorrows of our lady. And so jumble the second, put that back in, just the one prayer, but it doesn’t mention the number seven. But they are precisely the prophecy of Simeon. And that begins the first of the seven sorrows. Then the flight into Egypt and then the loss of our Lord in the temple.
Cy Kellett:
When he was 12.
Father Hugh Barber:
Right, when he was 12. And let’s see, I’ve got to get this right. And then there is his, let’s see, [inaudible 00:23:43]. I have to go backwards. Entombment, crucifixion. So I’ve gotten four so far, right?
Cy Kellett:
Three, I think we did.
Father Hugh Barber:
All right, let’s see.
Cy Kellett:
I’m so sorry.
Father Hugh Barber:
I was expecting the seven sorrows. And I have it, I have the rosary. So, anyways, so it’s the prophecy of Simeon, the flight into Egypt, the exile there, the loss of the child Jesus in the temple. And then the fourth one would be his carrying the cross. His scourging is the fourth one. The carrying the cross is the fifth one. The sixth one is crucifixion. And the seventh one is his entombment.
Cy Kellett:
Well done.
Father Hugh Barber:
Okay. I had to see in my mind the little metals on the rosary. All right.
Cy Kellett:
Good for you.
Father Hugh Barber:
So, once again, the sorrows are the prophecy of Simeon, the flight into Egypt, the loss of the child Jesus in the temple, and then finally our Lord’s carrying of the cross.
Cy Kellett:
Yep.
Father Hugh Barber:
No, scourging rather first, right?
Cy Kellett:
Well, my list I have here that I looked up says, “The meeting of Jesus and Mary on the way of the cross and then the crucifixion,” but that could be the carrying of the cross.
Father Hugh Barber:
Oh yeah, that’s true. Okay. But is it a list of seven?
Cy Kellett:
But then it also says the taking down of the body of Jesus from the cross
Father Hugh Barber:
Well, that’s the entombment.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Father Hugh Barber:
But I mean, you need to get a Servite list.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Father Hugh Barber:
But anyway, four of them are about the passion and then the other three are about our Lord’s childhood.
Cy Kellett:
But these are real sorrows.
Father Hugh Barber:
These are real sorrows that remind her that he’s going his way.
Cy Kellett:
Could you just say something real quick?
Father Hugh Barber:
Now, remember, at Catholic Answers, we’re not used to screwing anything up quite like that. But it’s okay.
Cy Kellett:
It’s actually good.
Father Hugh Barber:
The seven is seven, whatever.
Cy Kellett:
I am used to screwing the executives. It’s the rest of you that don’t.
Father Hugh Barber:
I’m trying to remember [crosstalk 00:25:40].
Cy Kellett:
I’m sorry about that.
Father Hugh Barber:
That’s all right.
Cy Kellett:
But I want to ask you about sorrow and faith because some people will look at it and say, “Well, she knows this is all going to work out. She has to know from her faith that he’s going to rise from the dead. So where’s this sorrow in this?”
Father Hugh Barber:
Okay. Well, “Are you Dr. Spock?” you ask the person. “Are you, Dr. Spock, that your reason tells you that it’s all going to work out fine and therefore you should not be sorrowful in the moment?”
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Father Hugh Barber:
All right. That’s just so not human. It’s just not human. You say, “Okay, look, you’re going to have a quadruple bypass surgery, but it’s all going to turn out fine.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Yeah. You just don’t have any emotions about it.
Father Hugh Barber:
Whistle your way there and say, “This is just as good as a vacation to Tahiti. I don’t care.” No.
Cy Kellett:
It’s miserable.
Father Hugh Barber:
It still is miserable and sad.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right.
Father Hugh Barber:
And there’s so many other things like that, that just because you know that there’s an ultimate triumph doesn’t mean that you don’t suffer. And also, it’s the fact of sin. Sin is an irreducible evil that God intervenes to overcome by his own means, which are not sin. And that’s a big deal, that’s a conflict, which is creepy, which is awful. It’s like confronting an evil which is truly evil, and I think God, in his mercy, he doesn’t really often have us in our lives have to confront just pure malice.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Father Hugh Barber:
We confront concupiscence, passion, temptation, disappointments, physical pain, and sometimes, we have a little glimpse of the fact that there is a pure malicious, evil behind the devil who wants to draw us away from God. We get that feeling and then we have got to go. But if we get it too explicitly, the devil’s not happy because he knows we will go, “No, I don’t want that,” we’ll get away from it. So he always tries to sugarcoat it. And God doesn’t, on the other hand. He makes it very clear through the crucifix and through our lady’s pierced heart and his constant warnings that evil is evil and we should turn away from sin. “Just take my word for it,” our lady would say like a good Jewish mother, “Take my word for it. This is not going to make you happy.”
Cy Kellett:
You don’t want this.
Father Hugh Barber:
“Just follow my advice, and I will take on myself the suffering for what you’ve done but that’s not going to change the fact that you’re going to have to change. And I’ll help you, but you’re still going to have to change.”
Cy Kellett:
Thank you, Father.
Father Hugh Barber:
Okay. God bless you.
Cy Kellett:
May we have your blessing.
Father Hugh Barber:
[foreign language 00:28:12], Amen.
Cy Kellett:
All this sorrow and this remembering of sorrow in the end is about joy. Jesus suffered what he suffered and Mary suffered all the many sorrows that she suffered out of love, out of love for God and out of love for us and out of the desire that God’s joy, which they both had, they had a fullness of joy within them, would be ours. They did it for us. And that’s why we remember. So one way to commemorate the suffering of Jesus on the cross and the many sorrows that Mary lived is to remember to be joyful. In fact, that’s a great way to commemorate it. Thanks for joining us here. Remember you can subscribe to Focus on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen. Then you’ll be notified when new episodes are released. And if you’d give us that five star review, as we always ask you to, that would help to grow this podcast.
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