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Renowned scholar of St. Augustine, Father David Meconi, SJ, joins us for a discussion of the Apostolic Fathers. Did these men really know the Apostles? And if they did, what do they tell us about the kind of Faith the Apostles preached and lived?
The forgotten wisdom of the early church, Father David Meconi is next.
Cy Kellett:
Welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. And I can remember the very first time that I heard about the Apostolic Fathers, people who knew the apostles, and then wrote down, at least some of what the apostles had taught them, and the faith that they had received from the apostles. I thought this is pretty important information, I wish someone had told me about this. So that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Those Apostolic Fathers who tell us about the faith that was handed on by the apostles.
Christ Unfurled: The First 500 years of Jesus’s Life is the new book from Father David Meconi, And he is our guest on this episode. Why the first 500 years of Jesus’s life? Because Jesus’ own life is intimately intertwined with the life of the church. And that’s certainly something we see when we study the Apostolic Fathers. So if you don’t know, father David Meconi, he’s one of the world’s great scholars of Saint Augustine. He’s a professor of historical theology at Saint Louis University and the director of that school’s Catholic Studies center. He’s also the editor of the Homiletic and Pastoral Review. And it was a real pleasure to get to sit down with them and ask about those early church members, who knew the apostles and wrote down what they learned from them.
Father David Meconi from Saint Louis University, thank you for being with us.
Fr. David Meconi:
Thanks for having me back Cy.
Cy Kellett:
I have in my hand your newest book, Christ Unfurled: The First 500 years of Jesus’ Life. And I must say one of the things that I appreciate about it is, it’s a history, but it’s, as you say, also, an ecclesiology. And the root of an understanding of the church is an understanding that the church is Jesus’s life.
Fr. David Meconi:
That’s right. You can’t separate the two, as a faithful Catholic historian, that Christ founded his church as an extension and a continuation of himself to make his presence known for those who couldn’t live in first century Jerusalem. And that’s what the church is.
Cy Kellett:
Right. You say in here, at one point, I remember, what could Jesus speak to a few hundred people at a time? But now the church speaks to billions.
Fr. David Meconi:
Billions, yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Fr. David Meconi:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
And we could get better at it. We’re not as good at it as he was, but-
Fr. David Meconi:
We are not. Isn’t it amazing though? So Augustine calls the church the second kenosis, that Christ empties himself, again, in us, in order to evangelize. So you have this understanding that, for those at home, look at Catechism section 795, that the church is a mystical person, a continuation of Christ’s own presence. And as Joan of Arc said before she was where she was unduly killed, unjustly killed, that Christ and the church are one and we shouldn’t complicate the matter. It’s that easy.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. You know it’s a good book, if it has a Joan of Arc quote in it.
Fr. David Meconi:
Amen. There aren’t many.
Cy Kellett:
She’s a strange figure of like brilliant, shining insight like that in this 19-year-old person. She’s amazing. But I want to talk to you a little bit about the beginning, because the first 500 years, we have the Apostolic Era, and you think, well, there’s a lot of disagreement in the church now, and over the last 500 years, about what that church might’ve been like, that just immediately followed the Apostolic Era. And it turns out we actually have writing from the Apostolic Fathers that can tell us about that [crosstalk 00:03:24]-
Fr. David Meconi:
We do. We have writings from people who actually knew the apostles, and who were out helping form their communities in the way they thought Christ would want worship and community and discipline and how to live in the world.
Cy Kellett:
I think there are actually many people who don’t even know that we have writings from people who knew the apostles. It doesn’t occur to them that-
Fr. David Meconi:
Well, I’d encourage them to look at the Apostolic Fathers. Penguin Press has put out a nice addition, and writings from catholic.com. The Apostolic Fathers, like Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna, and these people who knew the apostles.
Cy Kellett:
And so I don’t want to… Because you’re not trying to do an apologetic here.
Fr. David Meconi:
No.
Cy Kellett:
But there is an apologetic value in here, in the Apostolic Fathers, in that, as this bridge between the apostles and then the more developed church that will come in the centuries after, they give us a picture of the early church that is actually quite sacramental and hierarchical and Catholic and-
Fr. David Meconi:
Very much so. I mean, Christ seems to leave it, in some way, to our influence under the Holy spirit to carry out what he commands. Well, what is the one commandment? Love one another. But the thing about being a Christian is love has those concrete expressions. So if you really love God, you’ll try to love him in the way that he’s asked, which means daily prayer, weekly sacraments, the mass, baptism, all the ways that the early Christians are trying to figure out how God longs to be loved, and how we can best love each other.
Fr. David Meconi:
And so even though baptism may be carried out a little differently here or there sometimes it’s has to be running water, sometimes it can be still water, The early Christians are left, I think, in some ways to trust that whatever they are doing under the influence of the spirit, Christ will somehow honor. And then as the church grows and becomes more in communion with each other, in communication with each other, we start to see more and more kind of rubrics and guidelines.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. But it also has a, not just apologetic value, but a performative value on us, in that, if you say, “Well, you know what? I want to live like the early Christians lived. I want to live like the people who were in time of memory of Jesus, immediate memory of Jesus lived.” And you can go, and they tell us a great deal about how those people lived.
Fr. David Meconi:
They do. They do. I would warn against that, because soap and penicillin are really wonderful things.
Cy Kellett:
I guess that’s true. Yeah.
Fr. David Meconi:
And it’s also the anti-Catholic mentality that as we get further from Christ’s own historical presence, we are somehow losing his presence. Which isn’t true, because he’s just as present the Eucharist today as he was.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, that’s a great point.
Fr. David Meconi:
And so we need not return as some Christian communities think they should, because the original gospel is still alive.
Cy Kellett:
But there is a kind of a spring or something about going back to the original sources. Even at the Second Vatican Council, there was this idea of… Is that the [inaudible 00:06:16]?
Fr. David Meconi:
[Ressourcement 00:06:16], and aggiornamento is the updating.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Okay. So going back, reflecting on who we’ve been to draw on that, to know who we are to be.
Fr. David Meconi:
Exactly. Exactly.
Cy Kellett:
So what do you draw, maybe here in the book… Again, the book is called Christ Unfurled: The First 500 years of Jesus’ Life. What you draw from people like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, my personal favorite, Polycarp of Smyrna, because it’s the greatest name ever, Polycarp of Smyrna, and other-
Fr. David Meconi:
Much fruit, that’s what Polykarpos means.
Cy Kellett:
Isn’t that great?
Fr. David Meconi:
Much fruit. Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. But what do you draw from-
Fr. David Meconi:
Well, I draw that these people saw that Christ founded a church. That the community and the way we worship isn’t left up to human device, that Christ instituted a mass. He instituted baptism. He instituted the gospels. And these early thinkers are saying, “Okay, we have these things, now, how do we live them out?” As you say performative, “What does it matter to our life as citizens of the Roman empire? What does it matter to how we invite others into our community? How do we train them? How do we perform mystagogy, and the ongoing education of Christians?” And what I take solace in, is the fact that not much has changed. The words, the names, but the baptismal rite is still the same. Then the mass is basically still the same.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s part of what you get from these… I mean, later you get to Justin Martyr and some of the other defenders of the faith, but these guys are not really defenders of the faith.
Fr. David Meconi:
Not yet. Because, they’re living somewhat off to themselves. They aren’t really interacting, yet, with the Roman powers. And so they’re being left to their own devices.
Cy Kellett:
And so their works, therefore, because they’re not trying to defend the faith to a wider audience, they give us a little bit of an insider’s view to the Christian life of that time.
Fr. David Meconi:
Yeah. One way is unadulterated with polemic.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right.
Fr. David Meconi:
It’s written for us in the community, here’s how we’re going to worship. Here’s how we’re going to live. And we see, basically, the same tenants we see today, baptism is key. It’s essential. The Eucharist is the sustaining food of the pilgrim. Ignatius of Antioch writes so beautifully on two things, the Eucharist and the episcopacy, because he understands the Bishop is the living representative of the son of God, and the son of God is continued primarily and substantially through the Eucharist.
Cy Kellett:
And what do they tell us about the apostles, too? Is there anything from these guys that like… I mean, I suppose Clement must’ve known Peter and Paul, and Polycarp knew John, the Apostle. Do we get any hints from them about what these guys were like? I mean, they’re like, “Oh, I remember when John used to-
Fr. David Meconi:
No.
Cy Kellett:
“John always used to say…”
Fr. David Meconi:
I think they learned that from Saint Paul himself, they’re a little leery of the cult of personality.
Cy Kellett:
Ah, I see.
Fr. David Meconi:
Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Fr. David Meconi:
It’s ultimately Christ shining through his saints. So the saints themselves are transparent vehicles, media to Christ. And so we don’t get a kind of bio or kind of take on who the parcels were personally.
Cy Kellett:
I mean, there’s so many things that become well-developed. So for example, if I go back and I read these earliest of the church fathers after the apostles, they don’t have the benefit of the Nicaean Council.
Fr. David Meconi:
No, right.
Cy Kellett:
They don’t have… But would you say their Christology is high or low Christology? Do their… Sacramental theology is high sacramental theology or low sacramental theology?
Fr. David Meconi:
I think it depends on the author. I mean, the church can handle either.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Fr. David Meconi:
The church can handle both. So yeah, Ignatius of Antioch, I think his sacramentality, it’s very earthy. In fact, he prays that he’s ground up by the teeth of the lions in Rome to become the bread of Christ.
Cy Kellett:
Wow, that’s very earthy.
Fr. David Meconi:
Polycarp of Smyrna, as he’s being burnt alive, what do we smell? Bread. He’s becoming Eucharist in his martyrdom. But the fire won’t touch him, you know? And so the Romans had to drag him off the pyre and pierce him, and what happens? The Holy Spirit, the dove flies out of himself. A lot of these martyrdoms are written also for a little entertainment value. I think we have to be honest about that.
Cy Kellett:
Really?
Fr. David Meconi:
This is Saturday night reading before kids go to bed, and so there’s a little embellishment, I can’t help, but think.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, okay. All right. So if I’m reading the Martyrdom of Polycarp, I’m reading… This really happened.
Fr. David Meconi:
It really happened.
Cy Kellett:
Polycarp really-
Fr. David Meconi:
We know he was martyred.
Cy Kellett:
But the Holy Spirit and the smell of bread and all of that, you think-
Fr. David Meconi:
Well, Saint Denis, the first Bishop at Paris, he had his head chopped off, but he didn’t like where he was killed, so he picked up his head and walked two miles to Montmartre.
Cy Kellett:
That is a great story.
Fr. David Meconi:
Well, yeah. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but it’s a great story.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. But it’s a great story, right? Yeah. It has a little bit of Ichabod Crane quality to it. Is there any of these early writings that stand out to you? I mean, I think many people don’t know about The shepherd of Hermas, for example, but that’s a real charming story.
Fr. David Meconi:
It is. And it’s a long, lengthy, involved, philosophical treatise as well. And the one image that stands out from The Shepherd of Hermas is this young shepherd boy has a vision of this beautiful woman, and then he kind of blinks and she’s this old woman. And he says, “Who is this?” She says, “The church. The church has ever ancient, ever new. Always consistent, but yet somehow novel. Always stable, but yet somehow alluring today.” And there’s a great line that the earth was created for the sake of the church. That God’s purpose in creating was to bring us into one concord, one harmony of praise.
Cy Kellett:
But, see, even that, you think this is… The Shepherd of Hermas is not very long after the life and death of the Lord.
Fr. David Meconi:
No. Right.
Cy Kellett:
And already this developed idea of the church as a concrete, important-
Fr. David Meconi:
Right. Because we’re made for social creatures, we’re made as political creatures, social creatures, and Christianity is no different. It’s not just about me and Jesus. It’s about me, Jesus, and as many people as I can bring to Jesus. It’s like singing, right? Most of us, when we sing alone, we’re not very good, but if you put us in a choir, we can somewhat hide, prayers the same way, worship is the same way.
Cy Kellett:
Right, a lot of mediocre singers become really good-
Fr. David Meconi:
Exactly.
Cy Kellett:
… in their choir. Yeah.
Fr. David Meconi:
And it happens with prayer and worship too. This is my Christ founded a church. Together we are better
Cy Kellett:
Right. Now, Papias, as you mentioned, Papias he says an Apostolic Father, but do we have anything left of him?
Fr. David Meconi:
We have some fragments. Yeah. Basically, on scripture-
Cy Kellett:
He wrote the Logia. What’s it called? He wrote the words of the Lord… He wrote down the-
Fr. David Meconi:
The [Logian 00:12:30].
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Fr. David Meconi:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
And these were supposed to be actual things-
Fr. David Meconi:
Right, exactly.
Cy Kellett:
… that Jesus said, but we don’t have that.
Fr. David Meconi:
No, we don’t have that. No, we have fragments though, of what he understood to be scriptural.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, really?
Fr. David Meconi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Cy Kellett:
What does that mean? What he understood to be scriptural.
Fr. David Meconi:
Well, particular books and things, gospels.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, okay.
Fr. David Meconi:
We took Papias of Hieropolis, so he has the four gospels in there and whatnot. So it helps us separate canonical gospels from pseudo.
Cy Kellett:
And correct me if I’m wrong about this, but it seems to me that the early church identified the four gospels almost from the moment of their writing, as these are important and did not… There was never, “Yeah, but we’re not so sure about Luke.” All four gospels-
Fr. David Meconi:
No, that’s right.
Cy Kellett:
… from the beginning are clearly-
Fr. David Meconi:
What is sifted through, is these four are for sure, and there were others that may have been, and those, eventually, got excised, you mentioned, they got removed from the Canon. So there was no doubt about Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The order of those whatnot, that’s up for grabs, but that’s secondary.
Cy Kellett:
And then Ignatius, I wanted to ask you about Ignatius of Antioch, because there’s some who have said, “Well, these can’t be real.” And I have to say that I think that some of the claims over the centuries that Ignatius’ letters are forgeries has to do with the fact that they’re so Catholic. There’s so much about the bishop and baptism and Eucharist that there’s some motivated thinking in saying, “Ignate, this is forgery. These [crosstalk 00:14:01]-
Fr. David Meconi:
Yeah. There is motivated thinking from the Holy Spirit. And it’s a very convenient move to say, “I don’t like these words, so they must be forgeries.” We see it in scripture itself. We see it with people that disagree with some moral teachings of the Catholic church, and they say, “Well, this can’t be.” Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Fr. David Meconi:
“This has to be reinterpreted or just getting ridden of.” And Ignatius is so ancient and he’s quoted so often throughout the history of the church that it’s, they’re authentic.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. And you feel reading it, like I’m in touch with these people who are my brothers and sisters from the earliest days. This is like the beginning of the family tree, almost.
Fr. David Meconi:
That’s right. That’s right. And that’s why church history is so important, because we Christians are members of an organic growing community. We don’t just slap on things from the outside, artificially, to make a name for ourselves or some kind of novelty. We incorporate and appropriate what has been given to us by the Lord.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Because it’s not an invented religion. It’s a revealed religion.
Fr. David Meconi:
Exactly.
Cy Kellett:
It’s not a religion of our wisdom.
Fr. David Meconi:
Oh, I hope not.
Cy Kellett:
It’s-
Fr. David Meconi:
We’d have collapsed years ago.
Cy Kellett:
We would have, I know. The Didache, you say late first century, but it’s pretty early, the Didache.
Fr. David Meconi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Cy Kellett:
And what is it? What is the Didache?
Fr. David Meconi:
The Didache is the teaching of the 12, ascribed usually to 12 apostles, probably, not exactly. But some Apostolic Father took and wrote what the early church community should be living by, how they should be worshiping, how baptism and Eucharist should be taken into account. There, we have the first explanation, for example, why Jesus uses bread and wine. And again, it has to do with this community effect, that bread and wine aren’t two things you can just go find. You have to take individual grains and individual grapes crush and make one. And just as Christians are gathered from all around the world, so the Lord uses bread and wine. So we start getting theological reflections on the Lord’s own life in example, and practices.
Cy Kellett:
Does the Didache seem to you particularly Jewish as well? I mean, it seems like the two ways, the way of life, the way of death, it just has a-
Fr. David Meconi:
Sure, the opening psalm. Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. It has a very, I don’t know, to me anyways, it has a kind of Hebrew feeling, like the Hebrew mind is in it.
Fr. David Meconi:
That’s right. Yeah. That’s what makes the Apostolic Fathers somewhat unique, in that they have not yet engaged Greek philosophy.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, okay. So say something about that, why-
Fr. David Meconi:
And their history is very rabbinical, it’s very Judaic. It’s temple and it’s what we call the Old Testament, but that was their scriptures, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right. That’s what had formed them.
Fr. David Meconi:
Exactly.
Cy Kellett:
And it’s not to say that the engagement with Greek philosophy is in any way a bad thing.
Fr. David Meconi:
No. It’s the next step in how Christ reveals, and how he starts to incorporate others. In Justin Marty, for example, you get this Logos sense. He picks it up from John. He gets it from middle Platonism, stoicism. He’s starting to incorporate ideas that are important to the world, just as you do here at Catholic Answers. You find out what’s important to people, what is the idiom they’re using to communicate those values? And you show them that Christ is somehow present there.
Cy Kellett:
So say a pagan picks up one of these in those days. An educated pagan picks up, I don’t know the Epistle of Clement. Do they make any sense out of this at all? Or does it make no sense to them?
Fr. David Meconi:
That’s a great question. It would make some sense, I guess, but without understanding who the person of Christ was, which they could glean from those pages. But they would wonder who is this Jesus that we’re talking about? Who is this person? And that might be enough attraction to go find out and go talk to a Christian. I think that was one of the hopes, especially with the apologists that these things were written, not just for inside information, they were written, because they knew they’re going to get copied and disseminated out into the wider society.
Cy Kellett:
Which things were? You mean like the-
Fr. David Meconi:
Later, the apologies, like Justin Martyr-
Cy Kellett:
Oh, yeah. This is a book more or less. This is my defensive. But these, not?
Fr. David Meconi:
I don’t think so. I don’t think they intended that. They may have thought, let’s hope. Because there was a tradition in the ancient world of extending, and magnifying, copying treatises.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Right. So the Apostolic Fathers then… Another thing about that predating an engagement with Greek thought is that they’re easy to read. At least, I find them that way.
Fr. David Meconi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Cy Kellett:
Anybody can pick these up and read them. You don’t have to have somebody interpret Ignatius of Antioch for you.
Fr. David Meconi:
No, not at all. Right. Yeah. They’re very straightforward. They’re manuals, basically, for beginners.
Cy Kellett:
For beginner Christians?
Fr. David Meconi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right. This is how you do it. This is how you do Christian life.
Fr. David Meconi:
Right, exactly.
Cy Kellett:
And the thing is you could pick them up today and they’re still good manuals. There’s nothing in there, we’ll go, “Well, back in 1000-
Fr. David Meconi:
We don’t do that anymore.
Cy Kellett:
… we stopped doing that.”
Fr. David Meconi:
Exactly.
Cy Kellett:
It’s all there. So a bit then, just to conclude, because you start with the Apostolic Fathers in the first 500 years of Jesus’ life, but what are you trying to communicate to us in Christ being unfurled over those 500 years?
Fr. David Meconi:
I’m trying to help the modern day Christian see that the church is the place where Christ meets us, and that what we enjoy today and how we celebrate today, is, essentially, the same as he communicated to his apostles, that they communicate to the Apostolic Fathers, that they communicated to the… they communicated the great church fathers, to the medieval doctors, to the early modern mystics, and so on, that it’s one unfurling. It’s one Christ.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. And I think that’s why the Apostolic Fathers excite me so much, because without them, you could have a certain proximity to the apostles, but they’re a bridge that touches right on the apostles who touched Jesus.
Fr. David Meconi:
Exactly.
Cy Kellett:
So you see this unbrokenness.
Fr. David Meconi:
And the fact that we can touch Jesus, not only reminds us of the God had become flesh, but that touching, that physical contact has to take place today, otherwise, it’s not Jesus. The Holy spirit, it’s some form of Jesus, but he’s God made flesh. And in that enfleshment, the church continues.
Cy Kellett:
It seems like there’s the Christ unfurled in those 500 years, but you’re trying to unfurl that Christ again for us, now, because there’s a de-Christianizing going on. Where even as Christians, we can very easily put Christ in the Pantheon of great religious leaders, and we’re not trying to insult him by doing that, but we are insulting them by doing that. I mean, we need Christ to be unfurled again.
Fr. David Meconi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative). It’s intriguing to think the more particular we get, the more embodied we get, the more divisions arise. Everybody believes, say, in love-
Cy Kellett:
Oh, yeah.
Fr. David Meconi:
… but love demands sacrifice. Well, wait a sec. It’s the same thing with the incarnation, because of Mary’s, yes, God is no longer everywhere, he’s now somewhere.
Cy Kellett:
Wow. Yeah.
Fr. David Meconi:
And this continues today, and this is why the Catholic church is different. That we teach with a particularity and a concreteness and a firmness and an infallibility, because we really believe that Christ is the founder, the sustainer, and the goal of this body. And he puts up with our human failings. He puts up with our fumblings, because he is still present.
Cy Kellett:
Right. And as you said to us, in our retreat, the father, God has this pension for delegating to others. It seems almost to be in his nature to, if someone else can do it, allow them the dignity of doing it instead of doing it himself.
Fr. David Meconi:
And maybe, this is what the Trinity is all about. It’s a whole other centeredness. It’s not about me. It’s about you. No, not about me, more about you. And so there’s this sense of, yeah, gazing upon the other and rejoicing in them.
Cy Kellett:
The book is called, Christ Unfurled: The First 500 Years of Jesus’ Life. It’s available from TAN Books, and you should read it, and you should read all of the books by Father David Meconi. And if he can, go on retreat with him. Father, thank you very much.
Fr. David Meconi:
Thank you, Cy.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, you know what, I say thank you, but I should ask you for… our listeners will not like it, if I have a priest on, and don’t ask him for his blessing [inaudible 00:21:26].
Fr. David Meconi:
So some of the intercession of those Apostolic Fathers, may almighty God bless you, Cy, your listeners, and the staff here at Catholic Answers. May you increase in joy, wisdom, and eternal gratitude. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen.
Cy Kellett:
Amen. Thank you father.
Fr. David Meconi:
Thank you, Cy.
Cy Kellett:
So often we talk about the early church as if it’s just this real mystery and there was this Jesus, and we have all these records of Jesus because of the apostles wrote things down, and those who followed the apostles wrote things down and there’s the New Testament. And then not really sure what happens for a few hundred years and then Constantine, or something, pick your date that you think that the picture becomes clearer. It’s extraordinary to think, no, the picture is pretty clear right from the time of the apostles themselves. And that’s why it’s so important to know these Apostolic Fathers.
I want to thank Father David Meconi and recommend, again, his book, Christ Unfurled: The First 500 Years of Jesus’s Life. If you want to email us, you can do so focus@catholic.com is our email address, focus@catholic.com. If you would like to support us financially, and we do need your financial support, you can do that by going to givecatholic.com and put a little note in there that says, “This is for Catholic Answers Focus,” that way we’ll be able to continue to produce this podcast, givecatholic.com.
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