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To lure parents who want their kids to be competitive in a high-tech society, some Catholic schools promote themselves vigorously as providing a top-notch STEM education. But just how compatible is the STEM mentality with Catholic ideas about formation and education? Dr. William Fahey, President of New Hampshire’s Thomas More College of Liberal Arts, joins us to explain why the Catholic educational tradition is better for students than STEM training.
NOTE FROM HOST: Dr. Fahey and I both used the word “Medicine” instead of “Math” as the last word in the STEM acronym. This use is uncommon, and I should have been clear in the interview that STEM is almost always taken to mean “Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math.” The acronym STEMM is sometimes used by those who want to include medicine. “STEMM” is also the name of a heavy metal band from New York.
Cy Kellett:
Is there conflict between STEM education and Catholic faith? Dr. William Fahey next.
Cy Kellett:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholics Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. If you’re watching us now on YouTube or Facebook, you see that we have a new lair. Welcome into the Catholic Answers: Focus lair. This episode, we talk a bit about STEM education. Dr. William Fahey is the president of Thomas More College in New Hampshire, a liberal arts Catholic college founded in 1978 and devoted to the more traditional Catholic ways of education. So I thought it would be a good opportunity to talk about STEM. We see more and more Catholic schools promoting themselves as also being STEM schools. What is STEM and is there a conflict between STEM education and Catholic education? That’s what we asked Dr. William Fahey and this is what he had to say.
Cy Kellett:
Dr. William Fahey, thank you very much for being with us.
Dr. William Fahey:
My pleasure.
Cy Kellett:
You’re an educator and the great … I don’t want to say fad because I feel like that’s derogatory, but the great fad of education in maybe the last decade, decade and a half, two decades has been STEM education. Is STEM the unmitigated good that we’re told that it is?
Dr. William Fahey:
No, I mean there are many ways of looking at STEM. So STEM is our convenient … You’re right. The last 10 or 15 years, our convenient way of grouping science, technology, engineering, medicine, those disciples. Usually, STEM is privileged within grant-making authorities. Money goes to STEM because those are viewed by whom? Those are viewed as significant to the nation and the national economy and progress.
Cy Kellett:
I got you.
Dr. William Fahey:
Yeah, so STEM, I don’t think anyone would say I’m against science or technology or engineering or medicine, but that’s not really what … The push for STEM is to create a force that we can privilege in society to advance economic, technological progress.
Cy Kellett:
Right. I imagine too that a lot of those grants are made by people who succeeded in things like technology.
Dr. William Fahey:
Absolutely.
Cy Kellett:
The technologists have more money.
Dr. William Fahey:
Gates Foundation pours money into STEM. One of the areas where STEM has been questioned is in the way it’s financed things like common core curricula throughout the United States. So there was a push in the public school systems a decade ago to completely overhaul the curriculum of a high school, of all high schools within a state so that they lined up with these common core principles-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… which were heavily financed by the Gates Foundation-
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Dr. William Fahey:
… and were designed to support STEM. So other areas within education, the arts, the humanities, were flattened and de-privileged in order to support a national movement for science and technology driven by these entrepreneurs or inventors or people whose background is principally in technology.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
Technology even more than science, engineering, and medicine.
Cy Kellett:
But it’s possible that the person who has devoted their life to technological pursuits and been educated in primarily technological matters has a less full view of what a human person is and what human thriving is than what we would hope.
Dr. William Fahey:
Absolutely.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, that’s the problem.
Dr. William Fahey:
A curriculum which is captured by this idea-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Dr. William Fahey:
… I think in charity, I’ll say unintentionally ends up attacking the human person in the human person’s fullness.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
Because so much of what a person is is flattened by this.
Cy Kellett:
I’m so happy that we have you here to talk about it with us because you’re a Catholic educator. Catholics are pretty good at education. I don’t know if you know this, but we’ve-
Dr. William Fahey:
We’ve been in the game for a while.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right. Inventing things like the university and most of the degrees of Western education and all that, but that education had the idea of the formation of the person, the primary goal of which is the salvation of that person’s soul which is utterly foreign to STEM education. I’m not saying that you can’t teach someone science, technology, education, and medicine as you said and not also form them, but if you don’t make formation a priority, then formation and salvation itself are maybe optional.
Dr. William Fahey:
Yeah, is the human person the center of the educational project?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
Then that raises questions on what’s the end of the human person. Does he have a divine end or simply an earthly end? But even in the case of a human who only has an earthly end, there’s something different there than what we currently have in the modern university system which does not have the human as the center anymore. It’s unclear what the center is, but it’s not the individual.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Okay. This is problematic. Okay. So that’s actually a more dire way of thinking about this than I was thinking about it. I’m thinking well you could recover a sense of the higher purpose of education, but really if the person is not at the center of education, what is at the center of education?
Dr. William Fahey:
What is at the center? Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
What is? I mean I don’t know.
Dr. William Fahey:
So this is where I think a just a little bit of deep history helps understand the trajectory of STEM. So if we look at the early 17th century, this is where you see a radical shift in the university system beginning and the vision of what the purpose of education is. Prior to that, as you said, universities are by and large a creation of Christian culture.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Dr. William Fahey:
Yeah, building on the Greco Roman foundation. So if you think of the great synthesis of St. Thomas who accepts, sort of purifies, but really appreciates Aristotle, that’s absorbed into the educational system so that the human person is at the center of education, but even Aristotle would say the human person is meant and is most happy when he can contemplate, think upon the highest things.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Dr. William Fahey:
For a Catholic, that’s going to mean contemplating coming to a deeper understanding of God.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Dr. William Fahey:
That understanding helps explain us as a person. In the 17th century, you have someone named Sir Francis Bacon, very interesting, influential figure, but he was furious in his failure to obtain a university position. He didn’t know his Aristotle very well. That was part of the rejection that he had from the university system, and he ends up creating a whole new methodology in the sciences which has as its objective power. So many of us know the expression knowledge is power.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
Norman Rockwell, the painter, frequently has this in the background. Knowledge is power. Francis Bacon is the first one to take this idea and turn the educational system not into knowledge is for the sake of contemplation, knowledge is for our journey towards God, but knowledge is for power, specifically national power. He wants England to use the university system to be a great financial power. So suddenly, the university objective begins to shift from you understanding yourself and your relationship to other men and God to you being a good citizen advancing the cause of your nation for the sake of power. So if you think about the difference between the two objectives, then suddenly something like STEM and many other things that we witness in the modern academy, the radical ideology that you see right now in American universities, makes sense. You flatten out man’s journey towards God. What’s left?
Cy Kellett:
He’s a-
Dr. William Fahey:
Power.
Cy Kellett:
Right, but he’s a cog for a greater power. He’s a functionary. He’s an instrument for a power that is not a divine power, but a nationalistic power.
Dr. William Fahey:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So this is a very serious problem because … But I guess as you said that, then that means that the purpose of education if it’s going to be, for example, the economic and the military and the cultural power of the nation, then that means that the accrual of power by, for example, improving technology, having a more profound science, all of that becomes rooted in power as well, that I’m not understanding the world as an act of appreciation, as an act of contemplation. My entire quest for understanding is wrapped up in gaining power over nature so that that power can become national power.
Dr. William Fahey:
National power or … Not everyone follows the project of Sir Francis Bacon to a tee-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… but if you say that study is about gaining power, then the question becomes for whose benefit, the nation state, the individuals.
Cy Kellett:
Sure. Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
Okay. So it could be that I view going to the university as about my advancing in career so that I can make a lot of money. That’s not too alien from people who are perhaps very sincere Christians. “I want to get an education because that will help me make tremendous money.” Nothing wrong with having a great career, nothing wrong with making money in order to support a family, but if you lose the structure of learning, what is power for? Bacon doesn’t really answer that question. Who’s the authority that makes a determination on the use of power? Bacon doesn’t answer that, but we see how the university has become kind of a plaything of strong private interests, Gates Foundation, technological firms, or the state increasingly and private education, especially Catholic education, marginalized because it calls into question the very ends of the modern academy.
Cy Kellett:
So then even though … Then I might say, “Okay. Well as a remedy for that, we want more money to go to the English department,” but this is also problematic if the English department also is founded in ideas of power. For example, why would I want to understand Willa Cather? Well Willa Cather is a dynamic … There’s some power in understanding Willa Cather, in debunking Willa Cather, but there’s not a sense of it’s worth it because it’s beautiful.
Dr. William Fahey:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
There’s another reason for studying even literature.
Dr. William Fahey:
So language for the sake of learning to … Language, art, any of the humanistic subjects which were originally studied I think principally for two reasons, one, to look at the structure of whatever it is, a piece of art, a work of poetry, a novel, and to just enjoy the amazement of beauty, but also to indirectly gain experiences in what it means to be a human. So you read a novel and either it affords you the ability to reflect on things that have happened in your life, to meditate on those, have a richer understanding, or perhaps it prepares you for something you haven’t experienced, suffering of a certain kind, loss, how to handle victory. All that could be wiped out if you have a different mindset and even English departments, literature departments, history departments I think by and large have been replaced by this notion that was originally stronger in the sciences. Knowledge is about power and that’s crept in.
Dr. William Fahey:
So if you look at, for example, my training’s in the classics. Very recently if you were to look at or the listeners and viewers were to look at Princeton University, one of our most prestigious universities in the United States, their classics department has recently made an announcement that for a major for someone whose specialty is classics … And just so we’re clear, classics is the study of Greek and Roman civilization which traditionally has meant you want to study the civilization, you have to master two very difficult languages, Latin and Greek. The department has come out and they’ve said there’s no need to master these languages anymore. In fact, the chairman has said Danish would be perfectly fine for someone who’s studying Greco Roman culture. If you go to their website, there’s a very small section called About where you learn some basic things about the department and then a very large section on systematic racism-
Cy Kellett:
Oh, yeah. Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… and how the classics department is going to contribute to the political project of dismantling systematic racism. So now, an intellectual program about the advancement of the mind, the ability to deepen your understanding of the human person is just made another tool-
Cy Kellett:
In a power struggle.
Dr. William Fahey:
… in politics, in the power zone. That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Right. Okay. Now, all of this … I mean part of my personal wanting to talk about this is I see the Catholic school … Well not even … Especially the Catholic elementary school that advertises itself as, “We’re just as good as the public school or we’re better than the public school at STEM education.” I am not comfortable with it because my own discomfort of it is not fully intellectually formed, I wouldn’t say, but it gives the sense that the STEM is what is the key to the education. All of the Jesus, all of the sacraments and all that stuff, that’s an ancillary good that you’re going to get, but the main thing you need to know is we’re really good at science, technology, education, and medicine.
Dr. William Fahey:
Increasingly, that’s what parents want to hear-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Dr. William Fahey:
… because they’re saturated in the media by STEM is good, STEM is the future, STEM will make your child successful, happy-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… beautiful.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Okay. So what is the remedy? What would be the thing to say, “Well here’s what Catholic education needs to be if it is to be fully Catholic in this very technologically advanced and intricate society that we have?”
Dr. William Fahey:
I think the first step is for Catholic institutions to stop using the words of the people who do not like Catholic culture and Catholic education. Don’t use STEM. It is an expression created for a political purpose. Would anyone say Catholic institutions have never taught science before?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
No. There’s a glorious history in Catholic culture and Catholic universities-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… on the teaching of science and medicine-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… and technology as an outgrowth principally of the two of those. Engineering is an outgrowth of mathematics. Don’t use the word STEM. Revel in science. Revel in mathematics. Don’t pretend Catholic culture is opposed to those. Catholic culture has been a champion. Some would argue you couldn’t have modern science without Christian culture.
Cy Kellett:
Father Jaki.
Dr. William Fahey:
Father Jaki is exactly whom I’m thinking of there.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right. I think his thesis is correct by the way.
Dr. William Fahey:
Absolutely.
Cy Kellett:
I mean science is born of Christianity. He is correct about that.
Dr. William Fahey:
So I think the first thing is don’t use the language. Escape from the tyranny of that idea in your mind. The second [inaudible 00:16:07] parents should be heightening the administration and the teachers awareness that while it is attractive to use words like STEM and while it seems to be good to apply for all these STEM grants and this is what it’s driven by-
Cy Kellett:
Well yes. Yeah.
Dr. William Fahey:
If you accept the king’s coin, then you’re answerable to that king.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
So diocese, independent schools, homeschooling parents need to be very careful about using the words of people who are the enemies in many respects of the Catholic Church and schools that are going to draw you in with, institutions that will draw you in with grants and then all of a sudden, they’ll start saying, “Well in order to receive this grant money, you can’t do certain things.” If you reconfigured your school to be dependent on that money, it becomes very difficult to maintain your mission identity.
Cy Kellett:
Right, but it does seem to me without meaning to be offensive that the average principal of a Catholic school is unsophisticated in this because that person has received their own education at an education school and that the education school is not going to tell you, “Hey, by the way, the Catholic university was this great glory and here’s what Bacon did.” It’s just not. They don’t have that education themselves in order to know what are the dangers of the current fads of education.
Dr. William Fahey:
That’s very true. I mean that’s a very nice way of getting me to say-
Cy Kellett:
I’m a very nice person.
Dr. William Fahey:
… part of the solution is to send your sons and daughters to institutions like my own, Thomas More College-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… of Liberal Arts. There are other very good institutions where they are allowing students to read the original texts so that they have a real appreciation for the achievement of Christian culture and a real understanding of the time bombs that are quite old that are only now manifesting as STEM, but the problems of STEM are not new problems.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
They’re not the problems of Francis Bacon and there’s some things in Francis Bacon that we would say, “Oh, that’s pretty neat.” The problem of STEM, the problem of Francis Bacon saying the university is a project in acquiring power is the problem of pride. This is the most ancient of all sins and errors of man, to want to be like God. That’s a rather ancient problem. So it’s important for parents to take seriously the education formation of the children as adults and so make sure that the educators have this correct. That can be very difficult if those educators haven’t received their own formation at a good institution.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Right. But it does seem that you run into these … I’m sure you do too. You run into these superstar principals where you go, “This woman just, she’s an educator. She is all about educating and she’s doing …” But more often than that, you run into the kind of product of … The person presents as being a product of a very secular way of thinking about education. It strikes me that we have a crisis of principals, of Catholic school principals. I mean not that the teachers don’t need to be good, but in my mind, the principal hires the teachers so if you get the principal right, you’re going to be okay eventually. It might be five years, but-
Dr. William Fahey:
One of the difficulties that I’ve been seeing relates directly to this and that’s our graduates often want to become teachers. To be hired in most dioceses, to be hired at a small college, or even many high schools now requires a Master’s degree in something.
Cy Kellett:
Really? Wow.
Dr. William Fahey:
Certainly if you want to move on and you want to have a salary that can support a family, increasingly the expectation is a graduate degree. Where does one go to get good graduate school formation assuming that you had good undergraduate formation? To my knowledge, there’s not an institution that either through degree programs or independently through ongoing enrichment and seminars, and almost anyone could do this, Catholic Answers I think could do a splendid job doing this, forms and works on the continued education, continuing education of principals and teachers. That would be … If there’s a listener out there who’s got money in his back pocket that’s just burning to be thrown at a good project, then I suggest they call up Catholic Answers and Catholic Answers might be able to facilitate the right team, but there needs to be an institution whether it’s accredited with a degree program or ongoing formation for the educators themselves. That, to my knowledge-
Cy Kellett:
It’s not there.
Dr. William Fahey:
There are little things out there, but nothing that’s cohesive as a program to my knowledge and that’s very much needed.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. Now, so you did say don’t use the language of those who don’t like us. Are there other prescriptions that you would like to give us about addressing this fundamental … Okay. I’m a parent and I’ve got my kids. I want to send them to the parish school. The parish school is all in on STEM education. What might the parents say to the educators? Or maybe there’s nothing you can say. I don’t know, but look, this is what I’m looking for in education. What are we looking for?
Dr. William Fahey:
What could they ask and what should they be looking for? They could ask even if the result of the answer is not to their satisfaction, they could just ask the question, “Why do you think a STEM education in 2021 is going to be helpful to my son or daughter eight years from now when they complete their college degree?” I’m assuming their speaking to a high school principal.
Cy Kellett:
Sure.
Dr. William Fahey:
Eight years from now when they complete their college degree, why do you think what you’re offering now is actually going to be relevant? Because we all hear technology, science, learning is advancing faster than it’s ever advanced before.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
If that’s true, isn’t it going to be outdated by definition by the time they hit the job market? Just see what the response is. One of the worst majors you could have is a computer science major. If you look at … As college president, I look at the job market for students in degrees and one of the worst majors you could have is what many people assume you’re solid if you had a degree-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… in computer science.
Cy Kellett:
I actually would have assumed that.
Dr. William Fahey:
I think of most people who are in technological positions and what job in the United States is free from technology? Think about this. They already know the response. The response is the education that a teacher gives in an area that’s dynamic like computer science or technology is outdated by the time the person enters the workforce. Most industries teach people on the job site, “This is the technology we’re using right now and we’re running a two-week seminar to bring you up to speed.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Dr. William Fahey:
Baseline knowledge we should all have.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
Right? But that’s not the argument that the STEM people are making. It’s as if they are giving you some kind of golden candy bar. Your whole future is going to be wonderful and happy. That information is going to be outdated. Most people at this point … LinkedIn. So this is not William Fahey. Most people who are in their 20s will have 15 different jobs over the course of their life and a minimum of four career changes.
Cy Kellett:
That’s a career change.
Dr. William Fahey:
Not a job change, but a career change.
Cy Kellett:
No, no. Right. You’re doing a whole different thing.
Dr. William Fahey:
So why condemn someone to outdated science and technology? Baseline general information that everyone should know, absolutely.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Dr. William Fahey:
We are the friends of science, right? I have a Master’s in science. By background, my doctorate, that’s all in the humanities, but out of curiosity in a number of areas, I went back a few years ago and got a Master’s in science in environmental science. So I am committed to science as a thing, as a great thing. STEM is highly problematic and the ideology behind STEM I think does not offer freedom because I think the architects of STEM don’t want freedom. They want a pyramid structure that allows them to harvest the cream at the top-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, okay.
Dr. William Fahey:
… and to have a whole society dedicated to producing little drones in the technocratic empire that is Google, et cetera.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
It benefits them tremendously.
Cy Kellett:
Sure.
Dr. William Fahey:
But most people are crippled when they hit the job market because they become convinced in STEM. Therefore, they’ve been convinced into specialization and they don’t realize that specialization is by and large going to be outdated by the time you enter the workforce for most people.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So just one more question. I feel like I’m keeping you for a long time, but I want to … So the pastor who’s running the parish and he’s got a parish school that he’s got to hire a principal and he says, “William Fahey, give me some advice on hiring a principal for my elementary school here in the parish,” what do you say to him?
Dr. William Fahey:
Well in the interview process, ask them the question, “What do you think about the relationship between the humanities and the sciences?”
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Dr. William Fahey:
See if they can answer that skillfully which shows a love and appreciation for what both give. Don’t let one side win, but the appreciation for both. Then ask them if they tilt towards the humanities, “What do you think about math and science?” I wouldn’t really want to have, as the principal, someone who was against math and sciences-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… anymore than I would want someone who’s against the liberal arts traditionally understood. I would ask them that as well.
Cy Kellett:
Fair enough.
Dr. William Fahey:
So some simple questions just to see where they are. The key thing is you want to avoid … If you’re trying to hire a principal, you want to avoid an ideologue-
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Dr. William Fahey:
… someone who says, “Gosh, I don’t know.” That’s probably the person you want to hire because that’s a person who’s humble and honest. The followup question is, “Well what would you do to come up to speed? If we hired you as principal, sketch for me what your ongoing path of learning looks like.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. William Fahey:
Offer that to them and support it. That principal you want is someone who is strong enough in his own self-knowledge to say when he doesn’t know something. “I don’t know.” Jump at that opportunity regardless of what-
Cy Kellett:
It’s interesting to me what you say about ideology though because it really … This is the great misunderstanding of Catholic education, I think, by people who have no experience of it, but it is an anti-ideological education. As a matter of fact, education itself is the cure to ideology, not the doorway to it.
Dr. William Fahey:
It should be because it’s simply teaching the truth about God and the human person. It is not prejudging on prudential matters of politics, economics, and power, all of which are important parts of our daily life-
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dr. William Fahey:
… but it does not prejudge on that. It informs a student what is the end of man that allows him with greater prudence to make those decisions that shouldn’t be doctrinaire. It shouldn’t be a demanded position. It shouldn’t be a demand of someone getting a major in Greco Roman civilization that they sign off on certain bullet points regarding systematic racism.
Cy Kellett:
Sure. No.
Dr. William Fahey:
Right?
Cy Kellett:
No.
Dr. William Fahey:
Racism is an evil that all Catholics have always fought against or should have always fought against, but a university education is a privileged time to be educated in the nature of the human person, not to be politicized-
Cy Kellett:
Indoctrinated.
Dr. William Fahey:
… at 17.
Cy Kellett:
Amen. Dr. William Fahey, thank you. I really appreciate-
Dr. William Fahey:
Thank you.
Cy Kellett:
… you taking the time. This is going to be a tradition now that we’re going to provide beer for our Focus guests.
Dr. William Fahey:
I highly encourage it.
Cy Kellett:
You’re the first one. You’re the first one. Did it help the interview, would you say, to have a beer here with you?
Dr. William Fahey:
When does it not help to have a beer? When does it not-
Cy Kellett:
Beer is very Catholic, I think.
Dr. William Fahey:
It is.
Cy Kellett:
There was a gentleman, I’m forgetting his name, wrote a book about beer and Catholicism. Oh, it was called the Beer Option. It’s a very Catholic thing.
Dr. William Fahey:
Well I appreciate getting a beer.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Dr. William Fahey:
You should give a beer to everyone.
Cy Kellett:
It’s good [crosstalk 00:28:48].
Dr. William Fahey:
It’s a great introduction to local culture too so it’s nice to have local beers. I’ve enjoyed being here. It’s good.
Cy Kellett:
Well thank you. It’s been great to have you.
Cy Kellett:
As with so many things we do today from entertainment to politics to everything else in between, education and our priorities in education come down to what we believe about the human being. What is a human being? What’s a human being for? If we don’t answer that properly, if we don’t answer that correctly, we won’t answer what is an education for properly or correctly. Dr. William Fahey very helpful in that regard. I think we have some reason to be a little bit defensive as Catholics. We don’t need to justify our science education to anyone. We’ve been doing it longer and better than anyone has in history. As a matter of fact, modern science was born in the universities founded by Catholics and in the Catholic Middle Ages.
Cy Kellett:
Thanks very much to Dr. William Fahey for being with us. Thanks to you for being with us. If you’d like to support us, you can do so by going to givecatholic.com. There’s a $5 million limit. Givecatholic.com. Leave a little note to say why you’re giving to Focus. That’s very helpful. It’s also helpful if you’re watching on YouTube enjoying our new lair if you just like and subscribe. That helps to grow the podcast. If you’re listening, subscribe wherever you’re listening. That way, you’ll get an update whenever there’s a new episode of Catholic Answers: Focus. If you want to give us that five-star review, a couple of nice words about what you get on Focus, that too will help us to grow this podcast. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. Thanks for joining us in our new lair. We’ll see you next time God willing right here on Catholic Answers: Focus.