Tim Staples joins us for a conversation about just where things stand regarding the alleged apparitions to Ida Peerdeman given new communications from the Vatican. Also, what does all this have to do with the push to dogmatically define Mary with words such as co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces?
Cy Kellett:
The Lady of All Nations, Mediatrix of All Graces. Tim Staples is next.
Cy Kellett:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host.
Cy Kellett:
There have been lots of developments in recent months involving the apparitions under the title the Lady of All Nations and the movement that’s connected with those apparitions for new titles for Our Lady. And who do we turn to when we have questions about such things? We turn to Tim Staples. We asked him about the apparitions, about their history, and about those titles. What’s the theology behind those titles, but also what’s the future for them? Here’s Tim.
Cy Kellett:
Tim, just this month, the Vatican’s doctrinal office issuing renewed urgings, promptings, warnings about the alleged apparition the Lady of All Nations in Amsterdam. What’s the other way they say it? The Lady of the Nations?
Tim Staples
The Lady of the Nations, yeah.
Cy Kellett:
About that. It raises all kinds of issues because this apparition is connected to the current push for new titles for Mary, but also it raises issues of apparitions in general.
Tim Staples
It does.
Cy Kellett:
How are we to process all of this? Maybe we’ll start with the apparition itself, and then we’ll talk about the titles? Does that sound okay?
Tim Staples
Yeah, that sounds good. And you know, you’ve heard me say many times, this is another example of 1 Corinthians 11:19, where Saint Paul says, “Heresies must come in order that those who are approved may be manifest among you,” not that there was heresy involved, although actually there may well have been with some of the messages of Miss Ida Peerdeman, who was the alleged sear. Maybe we’ll jump into that. But the good news that comes out of things like this is the faith is once again clarified and folks have clarity moving forward.
Tim Staples
But evidently, Ida Peerdeman, who was the alleged seer, began having these visions in 1945, and it lasted until 1959. She seems to have been a very intense woman, charismatic. I don’t mean in the charismatic movement, but a very dynamic person, prayerful. I simply don’t have any doubt… She may well have experienced some contact with forces beyond nature, preternatural forces, but unfortunately when she had her first vision there in 1945, from her own lips, she said it was overwhelming and beautiful and such, and she said, “It had to be the Blessed Mother.”
Tim Staples
There was a red flag right from start because she didn’t seek guidance from the Church and such, but she ran with this thing and started having these visions. Very early on, it became obvious there were major problems with what she was saying and what the Blessed Mother was allegedly saying, but she went on and on. The bishop there, the Bishop of Haarlem, not in New York-
Cy Kellett:
The Haarlem with two A’s.
Tim Staples
That’s right, with two A’s. Intervened and actually condemned it in 1956, or said there is no evidence of anything supernatural. No. And she kept rolling right along. This became a major problem. Then, of course, after she passed on, the thing actually gained momentum. The Vatican actually intervened finally in 1974 and issued a statement backing the bishop there and saying there is no evidence of anything supernatural.
Tim Staples
Cy, it’s incredible when you see… I’ll just mention two things about the apparition that make it so plain that this is not of God, whether it’s a fraud with this woman, which I tend to not believe, but certainly it could be, or whether it is actually-
Cy Kellett:
A deception.
Tim Staples
… a deception from preternatural forces. When she made the statement… Now, of course, as you mentioned, one of her pushes was for the definition of Mary as Mediatrix, Co-Redemptrix, Advocate, and such, which, in Section 62 from Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church from Vatican II, you actually had the council fathers agree to give the titles of Advocate and Mediatrix on a formal level to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Now, the Church battled a bit on the floor, the bishops, over Mediatrix of All Grace. The council decided not to go with that language, Mediatrix of All Grace, and Co-Redemptrix, no.
Tim Staples
Since then, we’ve had more decades of clarification there. For example, Pope Emeritus Benedict, in his book God and the World, talked about when he was prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, he said the position of the congregation is that the term is problematic, Co-Redemptrix, because it appears to the faithful to be putting Jesus and Mary on the same level. He called it a stretch of language. It’s an abuse of language.
Tim Staples
Now, you and I may agree or disagree with his reasoning there, but what he very importantly said, though, is that the theology behind Mediatrix of All Grace and Co-Redemptrix is fine and good and Catholic, but it is communicated better by titles already given to the Blessed Mother. The Church has sort of clarified for us where we are, and whether or not the Church some time way in the future decides to give a title of Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix of All Grace on a formal level, that may or may not happen, but the most important thing there is the theology behind it is good. Just use the titles of Mother of the Church, Mother of God, Mother of the Son, Mother of Jesus Christ, who is King of the Universe; therefore, she is Queen of the Universe. We can talk about all sorts of things.
Tim Staples
Here is where the problem comes in. In the midst of pushing for these titles, there’s all sorts of things that are being pushed for, as well. In the midst of pushing for Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and all of that, she promotes and claims that the Blessed Mother told her that she wanted to be known under a new title, as you mentioned, Our Lady of the Nations, or not Our Lady, the Lady of the Nations or the Lady of All Nations. But in voicing this, Miss Peerdeman said the Blessed Mother said she was formerly known as Mary; now she wants to be known as the Lady of the Nations. Wait a minute.
Cy Kellett:
This is not just Prince changing his name to a symbol. Explain why this is problematic, formerly known as Mary.
Tim Staples
Yes. Well, because we have revealed that that is the name of the Mother of God, we have in document after document over 2,000 years. For example, at the Council of Ephesus, Mary was defined as Mary, the Mother of God. There’s no such thing as formerly known as Mary. That is a name that is given to her. In fact, there’s spiritual significance, the Aramaic Mary, meaning the Lady, has connotations to her divine and royal calling as the Lady and such.
Tim Staples
Interestingly enough, Ms. Peerdeman needed to know that there is significance to that title, Lady, but not in the way that she was speaking of it. No, Our Blessed Mother cannot contradict the teaching of the Church and what we have revealed in Sacred Scripture about what her name is. Now, some will argue, “But wait a minute, doesn’t Revelation 2:17 say we’re going to be given new names when we get into heaven? Why can’t Mary give herself…”
Cy Kellett:
That’s interesting.
Tim Staples
“… a new name?” Well, the problem with that is, yes, we will be given a new name, but that’s a new name that only we and Jesus will know. It’s not even changing Cy Kellett’s name. Names in Judeo-Christian thought are sacred. This is not something…
Tim Staples
It reminds me of the problem that a particular religious order got into naming angels, naming your guardian angel. No, you cannot do that, because you have to have authority over the one that you name. I’m sorry, you don’t have authority over angels, and angels already have a name. Well, in the same way, we believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary’s name is a divinely appointed name. It’s included in documents of the Church and such.
Tim Staples
But here’s the bottom line. This idea of formerly known as Mary is obviously bogus, but from there, she launches into all sorts of distortions, like that the Church needs to change its laws. Now, this is something the… This is not the M.O. of the Blessed Virgin Mary, getting into, “Okay, Your Holiness, you need to change this, this, this, and this.” Normally, the Blessed Mother does miracles to show the bishop that this is real; it’s from heaven. She supports the Church and the bishops and calls everyone to repentance. That’s what she does.
Tim Staples
This idea that Mary is going to come in and say, “You need to change, and you need to loosen the laws when it comes to other churches being included in the Church. It needs to be a worldwide community, not so rigid. We need to have …” She saw a vision of other churches included in the Catholic Church. Well, again, this is obviously bad theology, but here’s the problem. And there were more things, but here’s the point. The bishop says it’s not of divine origin, the Vatican backs up the fact that it’s not of divine origin, and yet people keep going to it. Well, then a bigger problem happened. You had a new Bishop of Haarlem.
Cy Kellett:
That’s what I was going to say. Yeah, right. Then another guy comes in and says, “Yeah, this is supernatural.”
Tim Staples
Well, he made positive statements, no doubt. His language, if you read it, he tends to be a touchy-feely kind of bishop, and no doubt, he spoke positively of it. However, he does not have authority to contradict what the Vatican, the Roman Curia, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had already said.
Tim Staples
Well, the new bishop comes in and reiterates the condemnation, or the declaration that this is not of divine origin. No one should be going there praying to the Lady of the Nations and all of this. And the Vatican once again… Now, this just happened, well, now a year and a half ago, where the Vatican… Well, no, last year.
Cy Kellett:
That was last year, in 2020.
Tim Staples
That’s right, in 2020. Yeah. The Vatican reiterated again that the condemnation of 1974 is still the position of the Church, so it should be done. We’ll see.
Cy Kellett:
Well, that’s the thing is, like you said, you can have this resolved or you can have a kind of serenity about it, but that’s only if you’re willing to be docile. This is where our own virtue comes in that-
Tim Staples
Amen.
Cy Kellett:
If we don’t have the… Frankly, I think most modern people don’t think docility is a virtue. They think it’s a problem.
Tim Staples
No, they think you’re weak.
Cy Kellett:
“Why are you letting other people tell you what to think?” and all that. Well, because Jesus gave them the authority. Look at that.
Cy Kellett:
Maybe we could end then by just talking about the three titles and a little bit of theology about it, because it does seem like there is a very good spirit in wanting to honor Mary with all the honors that are due her. There’s nothing wrong with that spirit.
Tim Staples
Yes. Amen.
Cy Kellett:
Go ahead.
Tim Staples
Yeah, and if anybody’s read my book-
Cy Kellett:
Right. Oh, I forgot. Yeah. Behold Your Mother.
Tim Staples
A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines. I go into great length in the section… There are six sections in the book. In section five, I deal with Mary’s role in God’s plan of salvation in several chapters, and I very strongly present the truth of Mary as Co-Redemptrix, at least that which the term represents theologically. I cite the problem that Pope Benedict cites with the term itself while I advocate for the theology.
Tim Staples
A great example of how we can do this is if you go to Pope Saint John Paul’s masterful encyclical Salvifici Doloris, in paragraph 25, Pope Saint John Paul the Great says that the sufferings of Mary were so integrally interwoven with the sufferings of Jesus Christ that they became a participation in the redemption of all. Notice, a participation in the redemption of all.
Tim Staples
See, what John Paul does is he upholds the theology of what we know as Co-Redemptrix without using the problematic term, just as the council in 1962, when the council advocated for the title of Advocate, Mediatrix, and such. After the council fathers said Mediatrix, they have a comma, and it says, “However, this must be understood as neither adding to or taking away the efficiency and sufficiency of the unique mediation of Christ,” citing 1 Timothy 2:5. There’s one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.
Cy Kellett:
If I may, to translate that, when a divine person gives His life for others, that is sufficient and effective in every way. That’s enough. It doesn’t require anything else, is what I’m saying.
Tim Staples
Amen. But that one mediator, as God, is free to communicate the grace that He won in any way He wills-
Cy Kellett:
Right. That’s the other side of it.
Tim Staples
… and He chose. That’s what I emphasize in the book, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church does in paragraphs 2008 to 2010, which are beautiful little sections in the Catechism that explain that it’s the divine disposition, it’s God’s will, to include the free responses of men in His plan of salvation, and the Blessed Mother is the example par excellence, and a unique example because of her unique role. Let’s face it, Cy, you and I are never going to give birth to Jesus. In fact, that happened one time. It will never happen again.
Tim Staples
Mary uniquely brought the entire Christ to the world, and God called her, Jesus Christ called her to cooperate, not just in the Incarnation but at the wedding feast of Cana, all the way to the foot of the cross and into eternity. As we see in Revelation 12, Mary continues to cooperate with what her Son uniquely accomplished in her unique role as mother. Hence, she is uniquely Mediatrix among all of us because, and I suppose I should make this clear, we’re all called to be mediators.
Cy Kellett:
Right. That’s the thing.
Tim Staples
All of us are called, not in any way taking away from Christ’s unique mediation, but establishing His mediation on the earth because we are members of the body of Christ. As Paul describes it in Ephesians 1:22 and 23, which I think you’ve heard me say a couple of times before, Cy, “The Church is the body of Christ,” says Saint Paul, “the fullness of Him who fills all in all.” Jesus chose to make us His body. Jesus empowers us to be His body, that is, to be Him extended into this world, so radically so that Jesus could say to the Apostle Paul, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting my Church?”
Cy Kellett:
Nope.
Tim Staples
No. “Why are you persecuting me?” Jesus could say, “In as much as you’ve done it to the least of my brethren, you’ve done it unto me.” There is such an intimate relationship that Saint Paul could say, “We are members of His body, and as such, we become mediators in Him, with Him, and through Him.”
Tim Staples
I’ll tell you what, the whole controversy… God bless Mark Miravalle. I love that guy.
Cy Kellett:
Me too.
Tim Staples
He’s a tremendous man of God, and his writings about the Blessed Mother are beautiful. Of course, he was one of the big advocates for the fifth Marian dogma, which I don’t think is going to happen. I go with the word of Pope Emeritus Benedict on that. I would not mind if it did happen, Cy Kellett, because, like I said, the theology… But I also respect the Church and I respect Pope Benedict, who said, “But the term is problematic.”
Tim Staples
I can tell you, from a Protestant’s vantage point, it was a problem for me, and I had to dive into it. Once I saw, “Wait a minute, Co-Redemptrix is not saying that Jesus and Mary are equal. It’s basically saying what we see in 1 Corinthians 3:9. Saint Paul says of himself and Apollos, he says in Verse Five, “What is Paul, what is Apollos, but servants whereby you Corinthians have come to believe.” He launches into that little discourse there. We’ll end in Verse Nine, where he says, “As a result of that, we are co-laborers with Christ,” synergoi. That doesn’t mean equal, co-laborers. It means they are with Him, and Jesus uses them as His instruments to communicate His life, love, and faith. Well, the Blessed Mother does the same.
Tim Staples
I get the fact that the term is problematic enough to where the Church is saying to us, “You know what we need to do,” and I say this to all my friends who are involved in we want the fifth dogma, “Teach the theology. Do like Pope John Paul did.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, teach the theology. Right.
Tim Staples
Teach the theology without the problematic term. I’ll guarantee you, if we get the Church to the point where Co-Redemptrix is just like, “Are you kidding? Piece of cake. It’s easily understood what that means,” maybe there will be a fifth dogma. Maybe 100 years from now. I don’t know when.
Tim Staples
But the point is, let’s speak with the mind of the Church on this and teach people why she is what John Paul said in Salvifici Doloris, paragraph 25. “Her sufferings so integrally join with Christ that they become a participation in the redemption of all.” We can look to her as our model to say, “Lord, help me in my sufferings, in my cooperation with grace, to participate in my small way.” I’m not Mary, but I’m called to participate in my small way in being part of bringing my kids, for example, my wife, my friends here at Catholic Answers and around the world, and everybody else I come in contact with, help me to be a mediator in, with, and through Christ.
Cy Kellett:
Praise God. Thanks, Tim.
Tim Staples
All right, brother.
Cy Kellett:
This is a tough one, and I’m actually really glad we have Tim Staples here, who we can ask about these kinds of things, because it’s a tough one, because it involves many, many, many people of very goodwill, as a matter of fact, people who have devoted their lives to being good friends of Our Lady and only want to make sure she gets the honors that are due to her, but also to make sure that her will and what she has asked for becomes reality in the world.
Cy Kellett:
Tim loves Our Lady. He’s a man who came from a Protestant background where he didn’t understand all that Catholic stuff about Our Lady, and he worked his way through understanding the teaching of the Church to becoming a great advocate for her. I think he’s a person we can trust. He’s not going to try to deny her the honors that are due her or in some way brush under the carpet those things that we should be saying full-throated with confidence about Our Lady, like she is, in fact, Mediatrix of Graces, Our Mother, the Mother of all of us, because Christ is the brother of all of us. But prudence is required. And when the Church exercises prudence in her role as teacher, the only worthy response of a Christian, docility. Accept what the Church has taught us.
Cy Kellett:
Hey, if you disagree, or if maybe I didn’t express that as well as it could have been expressed, I’m fairly certain I didn’t express it as well as it could be expressed, you can always send us an email, focus@catholic.com.
Cy Kellett:
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Cy Kellett:
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Cy Kellett:
I’m Cy Kellett, your host. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here, Catholic Answers Focus.