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Catholic Scholar Christopher Kaczor finds a great deal to admire in Jordan Peterson and his followers. But is Peterson’s work a fully-satisfying body of thought, or is it more of a doorway to deeper satisfactions for the mind? We discuss Kaczor’s new book — Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity: The Search for a Meaningful Life.
Cy Kellett:
Is Jordan Peterson leading people to Christianity? Christopher Kaczor is next.
Cy Kellett:
Hello, and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answer’s podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host, and every now and then a human being turns into a phenomenon. And that has happened to Jordan Peterson. The Jordan Peterson phenomenon continues to influence the world. And what does it all mean? And for those of us who are Christians, the question is, how does that relate to what we’re doing as Christians? And lucky for us, there’s a new book out called Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity: The Search for a Meaningful Life. Our friend, Christopher Kaczor is one of the authors. The other is Dr. Matthew Petrusek, two very fine Catholic scholars who try to kind of put the Catholic light on the work that Jordan Peterson does. And they do a very, very fine job of it. And they come away actually quite hopeful about what Jordan Peterson is doing, what he’s about and how that relates to the prospects for people coming to Christian faith. Here’s what Dr. Chris Kaczor had to say.
Cy Kellett:
Professor Christopher Kaczor, thank you very much for being with us on Focus to talk about Jordan Peterson.
Christopher Kaczor:
Thank you for having me, great to be here.
Cy Kellett:
You’re actually doing us a great service, because people send us emails from time to time about what they’d like us to talk about. And one that we get and we have not responded to it well, I don’t think, because we’re not really qualified is why don’t you guys talk more about Jordan Peterson? Or what am I supposed to make of Jordan Peterson? So, why do you think that is? Why does everybody want to talk about Jordan Peterson?
Christopher Kaczor:
Well, he’s one of the most fascinating and controversial public intellectuals around today. If you look at his YouTube following, he’s got something like 80 or 800 million views of some of his… If you’d look at all the views of his videos, it’s unbelievable. I mean, of his biblical series alone, there’s more than 8 million views just of that one video.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, he’s really quite a internet phenomenon. And I think part of the fascination with him is that he combines both an empirical and scientific approach with an openness to the artistic, the mythical, the philosophical, the theological approach. So, this makes him kind of unlike many other public figures, where you have this typical contrast, you choose either faith or reason, and they’re in a kind of competition.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, you get the scientists types that are saying, “Look, I’m for science. I’m for empirical study. I’m for data.” And then you get the non-empirical types who reject that, or question that. And Peterson, in a very interesting way, combines these two. And that’s one of the reasons I’ve been so fascinated with him, because as you know, in the Catholic tradition, the harmony between faith and reason is one of the key components of our way of thinking about things. I mean, you look at figures like Augustine, Aquinas, John Paul II, they emphasized over and over again the harmony between faith and reason.
Christopher Kaczor:
And I think, in his own way, Jordan Peterson is striking a similar chord. So, I think for that reason, among others, he’s been incredibly influential and also incredibly controversial.
Cy Kellett:
Do you think there’s any element in us as Christians of just an enormous relief that any public personality takes Christianity seriously? We’re so kind of dismissed, you’re talking about this faith of Augustine, and Aquinas, and John Paul II and the science of the Christendom period and the great cathedrals and all that. And on your average CNN show, it’s all just dismissed as myth or superstition. Do you think maybe we’re a little bit desperate almost to have somebody take us seriously?
Christopher Kaczor:
Well, I think, in fact, serious people have always taken us seriously. So, I’m a professional philosopher and I know within philosophy, the view that God exists and that we can have good arguments to show that God exists is not only taken seriously, but now is, you might say, on the ascendancy. And that there was more and more philosophers are defending that view, that view has become very, very prominent.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, I think among serious people, serious intellectuals, these great questions about God’s existence, about the identity of Jesus, about the biblical stories, have really always been percolating and been an important part of the conversation, and I would say actually, an increasingly important part of the conversation.
Christopher Kaczor:
I think what Jordan Peterson, part of his appeal too, is the honesty with which he is willing to wrestle with these serious questions. So, in other words, one of the reasons I really enjoy listening to him is that it seems pretty clear that he’s actually thinking through these issues, and that is really refreshing. It’s very much unlike a CNN soundbite, where you get the person on there and they’ve got their four talking points. It doesn’t matter what you ask them-
Cy Kellett:
They’re going to get those, yeah.
Christopher Kaczor:
They’re going to get these, it’s like you could ask them about whatever, Willie Mays, and they’ll be like, “Well, this reminds me of taxes,” and they’ll launch into their talking point. Whereas, Jordan Peterson, in a way, I think, is very willing to follow a conversation where it’s going and not simply to have his four talking points and that’s it. But rather to think on his feet and to be willing to pursue a question and develop his ideas. So, there’s something very exciting about that and very refreshing about that. So, I think that also is part of his appeal.
Cy Kellett:
Well, there’s a quote in your book, maybe it’s even quoted a couple of times, but he referred in a conversation that he had, an interview that he did, to Catholicism as sane, as a matter of fact, I think he almost said it’s particularly sane to be Catholic. So, it seems to me that he gets it, that there’s a great and powerful intellectual tradition, that’s not just an egghead tradition that’s going to devolve into another ideology. That there’s something, that use of the word sane is very interesting in his interaction with Catholic faith.
Christopher Kaczor:
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. I think his quotation was something like, “Catholicism is as sane as it gets.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:06:29]. Yeah.
Christopher Kaczor:
It was quite a superlative. And yeah, I was very struck by that too. And I think… He didn’t really explain what that meant. So, in the interview, if I remember correctly, he said, “Catholicism is as sane as it gets.” And his daughter sort of interrupted him before Jordan Peterson had a chance to explain exactly what that meant and things like that. So, for me, it was really too bad. I wish he had had a chance to sort of fill that out. Because [crosstalk 00:06:54]-
Cy Kellett:
I got two daughters. I know how that works.
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah. No, I do too. I have four daughters, so I definitely understand that. But, he said that and I was super interested to hear him expand on that and move that down the road. My best guess is that the reason he says things like that is that Catholicism combines in a very interesting way, you might say, the rational and the poetic. That is to say a kind of philosophical Thomas Aquinas kind of approach, but then also this sort of poetic and beauty-based sort of approach, people like Dante and Hopkins and these great authors.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, I think, in a way, that both of those sides kind of appeal to them, and there’s something about the combination that’s especially appealing. And this is something Bishop Barron has talked about a lot, that he is a big advocate for a smart Catholicism and a beautiful Catholicism. And I think that’s exactly right. I think the best of our tradition is very smart and very beautiful. And we can add the third transcendental, very good.
Christopher Kaczor:
When you think about these holy saints, St. Francis of Assisi or Mother Theresa, I mean, we have these saints that I think almost everybody sees as unbelievably heroic and inspiring. I mean, I tell this story here to my students about Maximilian Kolbe, he’s in Auschwitz and he lays down his life for this father, takes his place and get starved to death. And I can tell, even though half of my students said, “LMU, we’re not Catholic.” I can tell that when you talk about heroism like that, there’s something unbelievably attractive about it.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, with Jordan Peterson, I think that these elements are something that really attracts him. And because he’s so prominent, when he’s attracted to this, it draws a lot of attention to it. So, that I think is very good for the church as a whole.
Cy Kellett:
So, he has this enormous audience, the audience, he’s obviously meeting some kind of need or desire in that audience for a more, it seems to me, a more substantial engagement with world history, with ideas, with a kind of reading texts respectfully, not just dismissively. So, a kind of intellectual life, that’s more robust than what they’re getting, wherever they’re getting that, whether it’s through media or even through universities.
Cy Kellett:
So, now, you read that. So, the book, his book, his most famous book is 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos. And then you write this book, Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity: The Search for a Meaningful Life, which you wrote with your coauthor, Matthew Petrusek. So, it seems to me, you’re seeing that he’s responding to some massive need, but there must be some way in your mind, Chris Kaczor, that the need… That you can answer that need in a way that he’s not quite doing, does that make sense to you what I’m saying?
Christopher Kaczor:
It does. It does. Yeah. So, I’d say a good chunk of the argument I’m trying to make in this book is that a lot of Jordan Peterson’s insights are actually found earlier, and actually in a more developed way within the Christian tradition. So, let me give you an example, Jordan Peterson talks about the importance of being truthful. His way of putting it is that we should tell the truth or at least not lie. And I think that’s a great rule and I’m all for that.
Christopher Kaczor:
And I think that, say, someone like Thomas Aquinas or something like Augustine actually fills out in a very detailed and rich way why that’s the case. So, Augustine, for instance, has two different whole books dedicated to lying. In those books, Augustine discusses why he thinks we should never lie, why he thinks that, say, not all lies are equally serious. So, it’s one thing to lie about some trivial matter. It’s another thing to lie about a very important matter, like your faith.
Christopher Kaczor:
And Augustine and Aquinas, both developed this very sophisticated account of truthfulness and honesty and the value of that. If truthfulness and honesty are valuable, well then the opposite of that, lying, is problematic. They developed a very interesting account where the liar creates within himself a kind of inner schizophrenia, where I say one thing, but then I believe something else. So, what I’m doing is I’m dividing myself within myself.
Christopher Kaczor:
I think all of these insights are something that someone like Peterson can really celebrate it and latch onto, because in a way, it’s a development of, in a broader take on some of his own basic insights. So, in the book, what I try to do is link up a lot of things Peterson says with this deep, rich Catholic tradition and show how this tradition is really coming to the same conclusion.
Christopher Kaczor:
But then also what I try to do is move Peterson’s thesis forward to develop his own ideas in a way, because I do think that the proper development of his ideas ends up moving and moving closer to a kind of Catholic view.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. So, people ask all the time. I mean, as I told you, we get questions on Jordan Peterson quite a bit. “Well, do you think he’s a Christian secretly, or do you think he’s going to become…” People are very interested in his salvation, and thank God for that, we should be. But there’s also the other question of, are his listeners Christian? Whether he’s Christian or not himself, is he opening a door that’s actually helpful to begin the kinds of conversations that lead people to Christ?
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah. So, in terms of Jordan Peterson himself, he’s not a personal friend and his relationship with God, I think, is best left for him and God and any spiritual directors he has, that are more wise than I am. So, I wouldn’t want to speculate and intervene and try to think what’s going on there exactly. But I would say that it’s just a fact that if you look at the people he’s talking to, and the people that are enjoying his work, that his work has had a tremendously beneficial effect on the whole, in terms of helping people to think about these super important questions in a new way.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, I was on another podcast, Trent Horn’s, and it just debuted a couple of days ago or yesterday, I think. And I was reading through the comments and there were already 75 comments or something. And probably 25 of them at least said something like, “I was an atheist. I thought the Bible was just completely a bunch of stupid old stories with no value. But after hearing your work, Jordan Peterson, now I can see that the Bible has unbelievable wisdom for life.”
Christopher Kaczor:
And as far as I’m concerned, if he’s able to open people’s minds to see that, that is incredibly important. I mean, that is like totally vital. So, I think, he’s done a tremendous service. Now, in the book, it’s not a fanboy book where I think everything he says is correct, and he’s perfect in every way. That’s not true either. But I think on the whole, he is a very provocative and interesting, and on the whole, very helpful thinker for people who are Christian, to think through these issues, and a very helpful thinker for people that are non-believers, but open to considering these ultimate issues. I think he’s quite good for that.
Cy Kellett:
Well, let me pose to you two competing theories about why the Bible is so profound. One of which I’m intuiting might be Jordan Peterson’s theory. And the other one, which I think is correct. Do you see what I’m saying? Okay. So, I would call the Jordan Peterson theory of why the Bible is so profound, a kind of evolutionary theory that it’s so ancient, that it’s gone through this process of purification, where the ideas got expressed more and more clearly, and the flotsam and jetsam was brushed aside. So, now we have the clear waters of the Bible. This is kind of an evolutionary, just time did it, over time.
Cy Kellett:
The other theory is, it’s the word of God. So, I think the second one, because if the evolutionary theory were correct, then the Bhagavad Gita would be as profound and the Bhagavad Gita, clearly very profound, but it ain’t no Bible. So, like everything ancient would be clear if the Gilgamesh, if Jordan Peterson’s what I intuit, I don’t know this for a fact, kind of evolutionary theory of time clarifies, so we should respect these ancient texts were true. What do you make of that?
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah. Yeah. So, I think you’re right, that Jordan Peterson’s view isn’t that this is God’s word and it is absolutely perfect. And therefore, we can find great wisdom. And he’s not making that sort of argument. But, of course, that argument would get nowhere. It wouldn’t get its foot in the door with atheist agnostic-
Cy Kellett:
Fair enough.
Christopher Kaczor:
… skeptical types. I mean, they’re going to say, “Well, I don’t accept any of that. So why should I listen to what you’re saying?” So, his approach is to say this, that the older a story is, the more likely that story is something that captures something, a perennial value. I mean, if you do think about it in terms of evolution, if you have a bunch of people telling stories, and some story is told generation after generation after generation for thousands of years, that story has to have some sort of appeal, some sort of a power to it. It has to be talking about something that is essential about human nature, because again-
Cy Kellett:
Or [crosstalk 00:16:41].
Christopher Kaczor:
Exactly. But it was just a local story about whatever that only made sense in that situation. Well, yeah, wouldn’t have survived. It would have just been like, they told it for three generations and that’s the end of it. So, these ancient stories have a kind of power. And I think the power can be explained in a non-faith-based way, in that you could say, “Look, these stories capture something so central to the human condition, that as long as people are around, these stories are going to be powerful.”
Christopher Kaczor:
I mean, stories about fathers and sons, husbands and wife, husbands and wives fighting with each other, brother against brother. I mean, if you think of the story of Genesis, even on a human level, this story, it seems to me it has a kind of power, because it is true today. It’s as true today as it was 2,000, 3,000 years ago. I mean, what husband and wife don’t have conflicts and disagreements? What brother doesn’t have a a grudge against his brother and be envious of his brother?
Christopher Kaczor:
So, these stories, what parents don’t see their children doing things that they don’t approve of, and this causes them great heartbreak? So, imagine how Adam and Eve felt after one son killed the other son. I mean, can you imagine that? I mean, that’s just like. So, these stories… So, like I tell my students here at LMU, because we have a real mix, we’ve got some Catholic students and we’ve got some atheists, and we’ve got some Protestants, and we’ve got Muslims. We’ve got everybody.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, when I talk about the Bible, one way to approach it, not that this is the only way or the best way, but one way is to say, “Look, maybe you believe this is God’s word. Maybe you think it’s just an old story. But whatever you think of it, if you’re going to understand the human condition, you’re going to get something profound out of understanding this story.” So, again, I think that’s open to faith, but not for your acquiring faith. So, I think that’s sort of his approach. And I think there’s some value to that.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. That’s very, very clear and very helpful. The value would seem to be that without that kind of doorway that a thinker like Jordan Peterson provides, you get a kind of just dismissal of old things, like, you often hear the new atheists say what I think is the most ridiculous criticism about, “It’s just Bronze Age writing, why should we listen to it?”
Cy Kellett:
I mean, it’s ridiculous for two reasons. One, it wasn’t written in the Bronze Age. And two, what’s wrong with Bronze Age people anyways? Why would something all be… So, as a kind of almost gateway to engage, at least engaged seriously with the text, I can see what you’re saying. This is very powerful stuff that Jordan Peterson is doing.
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah, no, I think it is. And I think that we can have a bias in favor of whatever is the latest thing. And in some respects, that does make sense. In other words, if you’re going to buy an iPhone, you probably don’t want an iPhone 3, you want an iPhone 12 or whatever the latest one is. So, it makes sense in terms of technology that generally, not always, but generally the newer thing is better. They get the bugs out and whatever.
Christopher Kaczor:
But I don’t think that applies to all things, it seems to me there’s lots of embedded wisdom in human traditions that is impossible, really, to fully understand and articulate until you lose it. So, this goes back to Chesterton’s famous remark, that if you see a fence, before you remove it, you better figure out why they put up the fence in the first place. Because if you remove the fence and [inaudible 00:20:17], “Oh my gosh, well, here’s why they put up, there’s whatever, wild animals that come in, if you don’t do that.”
Christopher Kaczor:
So, my view would be that if something’s classic, that there’s a reason for it. That is to say, think of all the innumerable works that aren’t classics, that don’t make it. I mean, think of all the things that people read now in our year, that 100 years from now will be completely worthless. No one’s going to read it.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Yes. I’ve written some of that.
Christopher Kaczor:
Are people going to read the Bible in 100 years? Yeah. Are they going to read Aristotle? Yeah. Are they going to read Plato? Yeah. I mean, if something’s really that profound that has been around for that long yeah, there is something to it. And if you don’t see it, the problem is with you, not with it.
Cy Kellett:
So, one of the things that you do in the book, and I really appreciate this, well, first of all, you call him the most influential biblical scholar or commentator of our time, which I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, if you’re putting out a single video on a few lines of the book of Genesis and it’s getting 8 million views, I mean, Scott Hahn’s great, but he’s not getting that kind of a response.
Cy Kellett:
But you say that one of the actual, the redeeming qualities of his biblical commentary is its scientific approach, is that it’s willing to take the scientific mind and not say, “Well, clearly the world wasn’t built in seven days or made in seven days. So, I’m just going to throw that out.” But to actually allow the curiosity, the scientific curiosity, to go to a deeper level. What do you make of that, of his scientific engagement rather than a scientific excuse for disengagement?
Christopher Kaczor:
Right. Right. So, this too is something that is, and I don’t think Peterson’s aware of this, but this is found very explicitly in the Catholic tradition. So, if you look at Augustine, he has a famous work called On Christian Doctrine, and in that work, he says that if you’re interpreting scripture, you should use all available wisdom. So, he’s thinking about ancient rhetoric and ancient philosophy and so forth.
Christopher Kaczor:
Augustine says, “Look, you should use all available wisdom.” And why is that? Well, because if God is the author of creation, and if God is also the primary author of scripture, and if God is consistent within himself, which he would be, then all wisdom and all truth is ultimately in harmony with each other. So, you can use science to interpret scripture, and scripture to interpret the world, and you can have this sort of fruitful cross-pollination, you might say.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, yeah, that’s one of the things that I really appreciate about Jordan Peterson’s reading of scripture is that he is bringing to bear scientific knowledge that we have, that Augustine didn’t have, and Aquinas didn’t have, and using that in a way to help integrate with scripture. The whole point of it is, I think, ultimately wisdom, that he’s trying to harmonize in a way and gain greater insight into the world.
Christopher Kaczor:
Some of that can be done through contemporary science, but not all. So he’s not a scientist who thinks that the only way to have any knowledge about anything is through science and science alone. So, he’s willing to go beyond science into, again, these other ways of knowing, you might say. So, I enjoy that attempt at integration. I think that’s very, very helpful. In a way, it’s similar to what Augustine did, it’s similar to what Aquinas did.
Cy Kellett:
It seems like the bridge to cross though, when you’ve decided… I think of someone like Rene Girard, who does a similar thing with anthropology with trying to engage with the scriptures. And I think many intellectuals really benefited from Girard because he was able to engage with the kind of mythic side of the scriptures and unpack them and show them to be very, very fruitful. Now, Jordan Peterson comes and does that with the kind of psychological side, which is similar to what Girard did, but faith moves to accepting not just the scripture as wisdom literature, or a person, for example, Jesus himself, as a wise person, but as historically significant. That there’s moving from just accepting the wisdom of scripture to accepting that it’s also a book of history about God’s actual revelation of himself within history, that actually happened. To me, that’s the move from engagement to faith, would you agree with that? And it seems to me that that’s missing in Jordan Peterson.
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah, no, I would agree with that. That seems quite right. So at this point, at least, Peterson will say things like, “I try to live as if God exists,” and I have enormous respect for that, I do too. And I think if everyone did that, the world would be a way, way, way better place. And yet, on my view at least, to live as if God exists almost immediately leads to these further questions.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, if I try to live as if God exists, then the question would be, well, is Jesus really who he said he was? Is he really God? Are he and the Father one? If anyone sees Jesus, do they see the Father? Is Jesus really the way, the truth, and the life? And it seems to me, I’d have to really think about that and consider that. And for me, as a person of faith, my answer is yes. I think he really was the way, the truth, and the life.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, therefore, I think if I’m going to try to live as if God exists, and I think that Jesus was God, well, then I need to lead a life that’s in accordance and in harmony with who Jesus was. Part of that, he’s a teacher. But part of what he teaches is that, “You need to eat my flesh and drink my blood to have eternal life.” Part of what he teaches is that, “You need to be baptized.” Part of what he teaches is that, “You need to follow the teaching of the apostles.”
Christopher Kaczor:
So, I take Jesus very seriously as a teacher, but that leads me as a person of faith to say, “Okay, I need to live a life of faith in a religious community, receive the sacraments, pray.” So Jesus as teacher leads me to Jesus as savior. But that is because of course I’ve been given the gift of faith.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, faith is a gift and you can never force someone to have this gift. But I do think that God invites everybody in a more or less explicit way to receive this gift of faith. So, at the end of the day, I think it’s on us, whether we’re going to be receptive to that gift or not. That’s between me and God, that’s between you and God. That’s between Jordan Peterson and God. I don’t think anyone can intervene and force somebody to do anything. I mean, it’s, at the end of the day, like a marriage where if it’s going to be a real marriage, both parties have to freely consent to it. You can’t have a marriage where just the husband consents and the wife doesn’t or vice versa, both of them have to consent.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, the gift of faith is obviously within a community and lived out in a community. But there’s something also very personal about it in that there is something between you and God in a way. And even though, you and I say are both Catholic, but the way we’re going to live that out in our own relationship to God, that’s personal, my way of doing, that’s not going to be exactly like yours. So, I think everybody has their own journey as it were. But I think one of the things I like about this whole conversation is that I think Jordan Peterson is providing a very important witness in terms of taking these questions so seriously and struggling to live in harmony with the answers that you find.
Cy Kellett:
I just want to give you the name of the book again, Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity: The Search for a Meaningful Life, it’s by our guest, Dr. Christopher Kaczor and his co-author Dr. Matthew Petrusek. Even having said that, faith is a gift, there is clearly something in you, however, that thinks you can move people closer to the gift or to be more receptive to the gift. So, what’s the strategy, I just want to get at with you, so in this book, it seems to me, you’re trying to say, “Jordan Peterson gets you this far, consider going this far.” What’s your strategy to try to help people at least consider that movement into faith.
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah. So, I’m with Aquinas who says that faith and reason are compatible, but that reason alone, on Aquinas’s view, can’t demonstrate or show the truth of certainly what he calls mysteries of faith. So, he thinks that you can have good reasons for thinking that God exists, good reasons for thinking that there’s only one God, good philosophical reasons for thinking God has a will, God has intelligence, and even good philosophical reasons for thinking that God has love. And these are things I talk about with my students. I just did a Catholic Thinkers video series on these things on YouTube. So I think that reason can show those things.
Christopher Kaczor:
But when you get to things like Jesus is fully God and fully a human being, where [inaudible 00:29:57] God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there, I think, you get into matters that are really matters of revelation. So, on my view, which again is not unique to me, it’s Aquinas’s view too, the best you can do there is to remove objections. So, if someone were to say, “It’s just unreasonable and crazy to think that Jesus is fully God and fully a human being.” I think you can remove objections people have to that.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, in this book, I guess what I’m trying to do is a couple of things. One is to show how many of Peterson’s insights are already found and found actually in a more developed way within the Catholic philosophical and theological tradition. So, I’m trying to link up his thought with this broader tradition. But also you’re right to say that we can move forward in a really fruitful way by moving further down the road, in terms of integrating faith and reason in this sort of harmonious way.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, yeah, I definitely am trying to invite people to think about these issues and move further down the road and develop their thinking more. But I definitely don’t think that reason alone could ever, even if you were Thomas Aquinas reborn, prove to somebody and establish that God is Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. I just don’t think… I think Aquinas is right, that reason at best could give suggestive ideas as to why that could be true and could remove objections, but I don’t think it could ever establish as true. Here’s a syllogism that proves that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don’t think reason can do that.
Cy Kellett:
Just one… kind of part of the Peterson phenomenon is that, it seems that young men are very attracted to Jordan Peterson’s work. I wonder if you have thought about why, I mean, even here at Catholic Answers, the vast majority of questions we’ll get or engagements we’ll get about Jordan Peterson will come from young men, not from young women, not from older folks. What is it that is particular about the situation of young men that he’s responding to, and maybe you’re trying to respond to in your kind of conversation with him?
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah, that’s a good question. So, I think it’s true of anyone in public life that they have their demographic. So, if you think about Oprah Winfrey, when her show is on, the viewership of the show is 90% plus female. And I think that that’s just the kind of person that enjoyed watching Oprah’s show, and that’s true of TV shows and it’s true of music, you get a certain demographic that likes this kind of music or that kind of music. It’s certainly true of Jordan Peterson that a big chunk of his people that enjoy his work are young men.
Christopher Kaczor:
Now, why is that? I think it has to do, in part, with his courage, that I think that young men for evolutionary reasons actually are inspired by people that they believe are courageous. I think that Jordan Peterson’s willingness to say what he thinks is true, despite personal consequences in terms of his work and push back from others, I think his courage in speaking what he says or what he thinks is true, that I think is part of it, that inspires people. I think his cultural responsibility kind of inspires people.
Christopher Kaczor:
I mean, if you think about the appeal of something like the Marine Corps, where you say, “The few, the proud, the Marines, we’re going to make man out of you, we’re going to develop you, you’re going to be an amazing warrior.” Well, I think there is something within young men that, that sort of appeal to courage, that appeal to responsibility, that appeal to shouldering a huge load. All that I think is something that will appeal to young men in particular. So, that’s how I would think of his popularity among that demographic.
Cy Kellett:
Fair enough. It’s interesting that I think that Bishop Barron has a similar demographic in many ways at the Word on Fire Institute, which published this book. And it seemed to me, it’s very fortuitous, it seems to me just right that Word on Fire is your publisher for this. Because there’s an underlying current in what Bishop Barron does and in what all of you folks at Word on Fire, and I’m including you, because I think you’re a fellow there at the Word on Fire Institute.
Christopher Kaczor:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
This idea that conversation actually produces results. Talk about these things. Don’t just be despairing and over in your corner, engage, as Bishop Barron does all the time. I came away from your book thinking, “This Jordan Peterson phenomenon is a very positive thing. There’s great reason for hope. And we ought to take up this challenge.” Is that the view that you share? Like this is kind of exciting that people are interested in this stuff.
Christopher Kaczor:
No, that’s exactly my view. Yeah, no. You hit the nail on the head. That’s exactly why I wrote the book. I mean, I think it’s a very positive and very encouraging phenomenon. And I, myself, I have benefited and learned a ton from what Jordan Peterson says and what he’s been teaching. Again, part of the reason I enjoy it is that there’s brand new things that I learned, which I always like. But then also there are things that I’m not sure about. I’m like, “Well, he says this and that. I don’t know if that’s quite right.” And then there’s some things he says that I think are quite wrong.
Christopher Kaczor:
Then, I like to think about, “Well, why exactly do I disagree with that? What’s wrong with this view that he’s putting forward?” So, I just think he’s an interesting person to engage with. So, for me, it led to me writing about him and I’m happy to share my initial thoughts, at least, with other people. But I definitely do think it’s a very positive step forward. And I do think that that dialogue is with people that disagree is super important.
Christopher Kaczor:
So, I teach a course here at LMU called The God of Faith and Reason. And every semester, I have all kinds of atheists, and agnostics, and fallen-away Catholics who say, “Wow, I never had heard any of these things about God or why Aquinas thinks that there has to be an uncaused cause. And the uncaused cause has to be intelligent and have a will.” And they just never heard of any of these things. So, it’s a great joy for me to be able to share really his insights and his understanding. Because, I obviously am not that sort of guy, but Aquinas, I mean, really unbelievable. I mean, he is so, his intellect is so amazingly powerful that, for me, it’s a great joy to be able to introduce his thought to really anybody. Because I think this is like introducing somebody to Shakespeare or something. I mean, he’s the Shakespeare of his field. It’s like, if you like drama at all-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, you’re going to read some Shakespeare.
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah. Or beautiful English language, then yeah, you’re going to like Shakespeare.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right. And if you like thinking, you’re going to like Thomas… You’re going to love Thomas Aquinas.
Christopher Kaczor:
Yeah. Now, I would say this. You have to acclimate yourself to the taste of it, you might say. So what I mean is, the first time I had beer, I remember very well, I thought, “Oh, this is horrible. Why would anyone drink beer?” And then, after you drink beer for a while, then you’re like, “Oh, now, I like it. I have a taste for it.” So, I would say that Aquinas, for most people, at first, is maybe not even like beer, but more like a Manhattan. It’s like-
Cy Kellett:
Just starting with the hard stuff.
Christopher Kaczor:
Exactly. Exactly. So, it takes a while to-
Cy Kellett:
Right. Right.
Christopher Kaczor:
But once you do, it is very, very, very rich for sure.
Cy Kellett:
You can really just feel the sense permeating the Catholic community in many ways of we’ve lost, we’ve lost. Like, it’s all lost. There’s some time in the future, there’ll be some remnant church that will bring it all back. And reading your book, I just feel so revitalized in a… It’s not all lost. As you said, Aquinas, Augustine, the art, the beauty, the goodness that you find in the Catholic church is all still perfectly relevant. And there’s even an audience for it, as Jordan Peterson proves, you got to find a way to speak to that audience. I think you did a beautiful job. I want to recommend the book again to people. Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity: The Search for a Meaningful Life, by our guest, Dr. Christopher Kaczor, and his coauthor, Matthew Petrusek, it’s available at the Word on Fire Institute. You fired me up. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Chris Kaczor.
Christopher Kaczor:
Thank you very much. It was great talking with you. And I really enjoyed our conversation a lot.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, me too. I particularly like, I have to say, that now every email I get of, “Why don’t you guys talk about Jordan Peterson?” I can go, “What? We have a fantastic conversation about Jordan Peterson.” Thanks, Dr. Kaczor.
Christopher Kaczor:
Thank you.
Cy Kellett:
Well, you know you can sell books if your name comes above God and Christianity in the title, Jordan Peterson, God, and Christianity: The Search for a Meaningful Life is the new book from our friend, Christopher Kaczor, and his colleague, Dr. Matthew Petrusek. And they do a very fine job of considering what is really maybe the most striking intellectual phenomenon of our time.
Cy Kellett:
And one of the exciting things about Jordan Peterson is to see how much the world, which is spinning off of its axis, gets upset at him, because he says certain basic things that need to be said, frankly. But how does all this comport with Christianity? I mean, we do want the world to become sane, but we ultimately think that sanity and Christianity go hand-in-hand, because the source of light, the source of truth is Jesus himself.
Cy Kellett:
So, it’s very hopeful to hear doctors Kaczor and Petrusek saying that, in fact, Jordan Peterson might be something of a gateway drug into a much wider world, a world that involves the search for meaning. And that search is a good thing, not a bad thing. If people would get back on that search, far more people would discover the love of God that’s shared in Jesus Christ.
Cy Kellett:
I’m Cy Kellett, your host. I’m very grateful for you joining us. I’m also grateful for those of you who have supported us financially at givecatholic.com. At givecatholic.com, you can make a pledge in any amount you want, put a little note that says, “This is for Catholic Answers Focus.” If you’re watching on YouTube, like and subscribe down here. You know what to do. If you’re listening on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, and you haven’t done it yet, subscribe, so you’ll get the new episodes and also give us that five-star review and maybe a few nice words that helps to grow the podcast. And that’s been working, the podcast has been growing thanks to your help. focus@catholic.com is our email, send us one. We love to get them. Focus@catholic.com. As I said, I’m Cy Kellett, your host. We’ll see you next time. God willing, right here, on Catholic Answers Focus.