Cy Kellett welcomes Keith Nester, a former Protestant pastor who converted to Catholicism. They discuss the challenges faced by converts and how to help them navigate their first year in the Catholic Church. Keith also shares insights into the beauty of the Mass and the importance of understanding the “why” behind Catholic practices.
Cy Kellett:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers Podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host, and we make it our business here at Catholic Answers to try to explain and defend the faith so that people can come close to Jesus and particularly come close to Jesus in the Eucharist. But what happens when people do come close to Jesus? What happens when people accept the invitation and come into the church? What do they find in the Catholic Church, and is there help that we can give to people in that situation? We got the perfect guy to talk about this with us today. Keith Nester is a former Protestant pastor, decades as a pastor. He worked in the United Methodist Church, the Assemblies of God, the Evangelical Free Churches. And then in 2017, after a long period of discernment, he realized he was called into the Catholic Church and he followed that call into the Catholic Church and then wrote a book called The Convert’s Guide to Roman Catholicism: Your First Year in the Church. Keith Nester, thanks for being here with us.
Keith Nester:
Cy, thank you for having me. It’s an honor to speak with you today.
Cy Kellett:
Well, okay, so you accepted the call. Here’s what I want to know first of all, right off the bat. Were you aware of what you were getting into as far as the church had already been in a decade and a half of scandal, there’s a great divisiveness in the church? Did you know about all that or did you just have rose-colored glasses on when you came in?
Keith Nester:
I knew some, but not nearly all, and I still feel like I don’t know all. I’m still kind of exploring that. But I had rose-colored glasses on when it came to the theology of the church, the worship of the church and all of those type of things that converts are typically drawn into. But the experience of being Catholic and seeing some of those issues was kind of a little bit of a shock to me.
Cy Kellett:
It was. Okay, all right. That’s actually worrisome, but is part of that, do you think, or maybe that many people who are introduced to the church now are actually kind of getting their invitation via Matt Fradd’s podcast or our radio show or EWTN television. That’s not actually going into a church. That’s getting the online version or the radio version of Catholic faith.
Keith Nester:
Yeah, a lot of people have that experience because of the great material that’s out there explaining the Catholic faith. People are hearing that in their own world. They’re not entering into the world and the experience of being Catholic and then saying, “Hey, I want to do this.” Maybe to a certain degree, but most people, they’re in their own bubble reading, learning, and then they have this aha moment of, “Yes, I need to become Catholic.” And then that part of it starts, the experiential part. And once you get in the door, then a lot of these things become apparent.
Now most people are aware of the scandals that have taken place because that’s kind of main news. People understand that. But the reality is those are things that happen in every type of church situation. So there’s nothing unique to Catholicism about that. Everyone has that. But what is unique to Catholicism when it comes to some of these more difficult things is that within the framework of the one true church where everyone is supposed to be unified, you don’t always experience that unity. And that can be a little bit disarming when you come into a situation expecting that you’re entering into heaven on earth and everyone to be saying, “All right, we all agree, we’re all on the same page. We’re all united, and it’s all one big happy Catholic family.” And then you find out everyone’s, not everyone, but you find out there are, just like everywhere else in the world, people who disagree and have conflict with each other.
Cy Kellett:
Well, part of the attraction must be the sacraments. And one of the things I think that is alarming about the way the Catholic Church exists in the world today is that even the Sunday worship is so inconsistent. In one place, you’ll get liturgy that seems genuinely reverent and people who seem genuinely to be praying the liturgy, and then in another place you could get really wild stuff and not a sense of prayer, but, I don’t know, maybe… I’m not exactly sure what’s going on in those places. So was the celebration of the Mass a disappointment to you?
Keith Nester:
Well, not for me because I came into an incredible parish that had incredible priests and incredible leadership. So for me, I was kind of spared some of the craziness I do hear about. Now, as I’ve been Catholic for a while now, and as I travel quite a bit, I understand what you’re talking about, that there’s incredible inconsistencies where everything should be the same, and yeah, that can be troubling. So for some people that I talk to, they’re encountering a different experience from what they’re expecting when it comes to the worship and the liturgy and even practicing the sacraments. And I think that’s a big challenge that the church is facing right now.
Cy Kellett:
We do hear about people who they go all the way through the RCIA process, they’re ready, they receive the sacraments of initiation, and a year or two later, they’re not practicing Catholics. What do you think is the kind of driver that drives people out of what they just came into?
Keith Nester:
Well, I think what brings people in is different depending on the person. Some people become Catholic because they have gone through this process of discerning the truth of the faith. Other people become Catholic because their spouse is dragging them into it or they’re trying to please somebody. So I don’t think everybody shows up with the same motivation. So I think that sometimes what brought you in isn’t what keeps you in. But for people who are sincere in their search and they’re becoming Catholic oftentimes at great cost to them, but maybe they don’t stick with the faith, I think there can be a variety of those things. Some people become disenchanted.
I talked to one young man who was in Protestant ministry, he was on the road to Catholicism, and he got hijacked by some people who were very militant Eastern Orthodox believers who came to him and said, “Hey, well, you do know that the Catholic Church has all these problems. It’s not the one true church.” And they sort of just kind of took him off that journey, and he ended up becoming Orthodox, not Catholic. So I think some people see some of the human issues that the church deals with and they become disenchanted by what they thought they were entering into.
So I think the church has to really deal with expectations when people are coming in to say, “Look, you can be part of the one, true, holy, Catholic apostolic Church, the fullness of the faith, but you have to remember that there’s still people here, and people are people everywhere you go and people are going to fail.” So sometimes I think, Cy, it’s that they had higher expectations on the human aspects of the church than they should have.
Cy Kellett:
And I mean, the church is just full of riches, but those of us in it, we don’t possess all those riches, and we often give a poor showing for the Catholic faith.
Keith Nester:
Oh, it happens all the time. I think people often look at what others are doing, and that’s what they take away from when it comes to their experience in the church. And we have to remind people that the Catholic Church is going to help you focus on Jesus, but you’re going to have to work at that sometimes. The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field that a man went out and he found that treasure, he put it back in the ground, bought the field, and then he had to dig it back up again. That’s work. You’re going to sacrifice to get into the church. And then you’re going to also sacrifice you stay in the church because there will be all sorts of human beings that are going to let you down, but you have to remember to keep your focus on Christ, who has made these incredible promises to the church that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Cy Kellett:
So then you wrote the book, The Convert’s Guide to Roman Catholicism: Your First Year in the Church, what were you thinking? Why did you say, “I got to get this book out there for people?”
Keith Nester:
Well, I never intended to write a book. I wasn’t trying to enter into that space. But I had a moment with the Lord where I feel like he impressed that onto my heart in a very real way because I had just gone through my first year as a Catholic and I didn’t go through RCIA, I went through a program with my priest privately. But I remember feeling like when I finally became Catholic and seeing others do the same thing, there’s not a lot of instruction for what it’s going to feel like to become Catholic.
That might seem like a strange thing to say, but there are a lot of things that you don’t learn about in an RCIA textbook. And your experience coming out of Protestantism or even atheism or whatever, but my book is more about those coming out of Protestantism, there’re going to be things that you have to walk through that no one I really could see was preparing you for. For example, how do you tell your friends that you’re becoming Catholic? How do you announce that to your world? You’re not going to find that in the Catechism or a RCIA book. How do you find a local church? Is it the same when you’re a Protestant at the way you look for local churches as it is when you’re a Catholic? What’s the process? What does that look like?
What are the cultural things that are different between being a Catholic, being a Protestant, and how do you work your way into that culture? Because sometimes the way we talk as Catholics, we use different words than Protestants used for things that are common to both [inaudible 00:10:04]. Just a quick example. Whenever I would talk to people and they would say, “Well, do you have any prayer intentions?” I didn’t know what they meant. What is a prayer intention? We always talked about it as prayer requests.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I see.
Keith Nester:
Simple things like that. Can I share some prayer requests with you? Well, what’s an intent? What is that? I’d find myself often thinking, “I don’t know what that means.” So my book is-
Cy Kellett:
It’s so funny that as a cradle Catholic, it would never even occur to me that the language was just a barrier right there. And simple things like that.
Keith Nester:
And there are other things. Another one that can be a shocker for converts coming in, if you’ve come from an evangelical background, you’re used to coming into church and feeling energy in the room and people are excited to see you, and people are talking to each other and shaking hands and greeting each other and sharing about their week. When you walk into a Catholic parish to prepare for Mass, everyone’s quiet. People are in prayer already. And there’s this other element, which is great, but it’s a different culture from what you’re used to experiencing. And sometimes that can throw you off. You can feel like you just walked into a funeral and you’re like, “What do I do here? Is it wrong for me to talk to people? Is it wrong for me to smile at someone?” Things like that. And you might be thrown off a little bit by that because some of the culture is different.
One other one quickly that I’ll mention that I see a lot of people struggling with when they’re new Catholics is the fact that in the Protestant world oftentimes, the kids are taken out of the service so that people can pay attention to the sermon. The sermon is the focus, the climax of the worship experience. But in Catholicism, it’s not the homily, it’s the Eucharist. And there’s a higher value placed on kids being in worship. So it’s going to be noisier in the Catholic Mass oftentimes if you’re in a younger parish. And that can throw people off because they can be like, “Why are all these kids in here making all this noise? Why aren’t people taking them out?” And well, a lot of Catholic churches don’t even have a space for that because that’s not the value. The value is the corporate worship of everyone together with families. So because of those differences, people can be thrown off.
So my book is really a book that’s not meant to be an Apologetics manual. In the intro to my book, I even give a shout-out to Catholic Answers, say, “I’m leaving that to you guys.” What I’m here to do is help you in your first year to thrive and be able to make that transition and understand what it’s going to be like. Because another thing that happens oftentimes to new converts, Cy, is they get bombarded with all of these incredible things about the Catholic faith, all of these devotions, all of these different things they can do. Everybody’s got their favorite thing, but as a new convert, you can feel like you want to be involved in everything. And sometimes you can get overwhelmed or burned out. Someone’s like, “Oh, there’s this devotion, there’s this prayer, there’s this Novena, there’s this Liturgy of the Hours,” and where do you start? So I kind of give some tips on how to start, things like that. There’s a lot of different things that converts face in their first year that I don’t know that all of the programs to initiate them prepare them for.
Cy Kellett:
All right, so give me some help then. If I’m just a regular Catholic at my parish, what would you suggest that I could do or we as a parish could do to facilitate that so that maybe not as many people face challenges that might drive them away or might just make their first year harder?
Keith Nester:
Well, one thing that I’ve noticed is when people explain the why behind the what, it’s incredibly helpful. Our priest, for example, in our traditional Latin Mass that we have at our parish, before the Mass would start, he would get up and he would give just a three or four minute explanation on one aspect of the liturgy that maybe you didn’t know what it meant. So he would just kind of say, “Hey, if you’ve always wondered why we have this red light in here, let me just explain it to you,” and he’d talk to you like you were four. And I love that, because sometimes I think we can assume that everybody understands all of the Catholic stuff, and that’s not something we can assume.
So I think that one thing we can do is have elements in our parishes or ways or resources that can explain simple things to new Catholics that cradle Catholics just take for granted. We can also make a priority on relationships and having people there that are maybe on the lookout for someone who doesn’t look like they know what they’re doing. And I think it’s totally awesome when you go to a parish and there’s someone there that you see clearly doesn’t know what they’re doing, they don’t understand when to stand, when to sit. They don’t understand what’s going on. And another person goes over and says, “Hey, can I help you with that? Are you new? I’d love to help you with whatever you can,” instead of just assuming that everybody knows everything.
Cy Kellett:
Right, right. Yeah. Because it does become a kind of almost rote, like it’s in you once you’ve been Catholic for a long time. So when did you start to feel, “Okay, I am settled in, I’ve been catholicized, I’m Catholic now”?
Keith Nester:
Well, that’s a great question. In some ways I felt like day one, I was home. I really did feel that way. It was such an incredible thing to finally, after so many years, to receive the sacraments and to be able just to claim that identity as a Catholic. And that’s been so important to me. But when I really began to feel like I was kind of getting in that groove, I would say it probably took a year to a year and a half before I really felt that way. And I’m still feeling that way in many instances. I’m still learning things all the time. I’m still discovering new treasures. That’s how I look at it. To me, that’s very much what my Catholic faith has been like. It’s this incredible treasure and this incredible adventure, and there’s always something new that I’m discovering and experiencing. So I don’t know that we could ever really get to a point where we say, “Okay, I’ve got it all figured out.”
But when I’ve started to kind of feel like this is where I belong, I’d say it probably took a year. And one thing that really helped reveal that to me was when I would go and attend a Protestant worship service, because my kids are still Protestants and I still have a lot of friends that are that way. So if I’d get invited to something I would go to what used to be the way I was, I felt like out of place. It was really strange because I began to feel like, “Oh man, this is okay to get to worship and do this and all, but man, I’m missing the Mass so much.” Now I never would not go to Mass, but if I’d ever go to whatever kind of gathering, I just found myself feeling not at home there and missing the Mass. So I’d say a year or so. But almost immediately I just felt the Lord saying to me, “Keith, you’re home.”
Cy Kellett:
I have to say, it’s very interesting for me to hear you talk like that because there is a whole kind of almost movement, I would say, but a very prevalent part of the Catholic world that really wants Catholic worship to be more like praise and worship, Protestant worship. And that seems to me that that’s because there’s something missing in what they’re getting in the Catholic Church. But now you come at it and you go, “But I couldn’t do without the Mass.” So I don’t know if I have a question so much as just help me with that, that there seems to be a longing everywhere. The Catholic is longing for something that’s not there. The Protestant’s longing for something that’s not there.
Keith Nester:
That is an incredible thing to talk about, Cy, because I am made not for the Mass from a standpoint of what I prefer. I love contemporary music. I love loud, excited. I love long in-depth sermons. I’m built for whatever you would consider the megachurch world to be. And I did that for many, many years. I hated anything that resembled liturgical worship. I had no desire for any kind of ritualistic things. When I came into Catholicism, specifically when I discovered the Latin Mass, because that’s what I attend with my wife, it’s almost like my whole world flipped upside down and I began to just recognize the beauty of the liturgy, whether it’s in the Latin Mass or the Novus Ordo. I see the beauty in that, and I see the power of this experience that we’re all as Catholics around the world sharing together. And of course the sacramental element to me.
Oftentimes Catholics get accused of having this man-centered worship. But what I discovered in the Mass was the complete opposite. And it was revealed to me that where I was before was extremely man-centered because it was all about the worship leader or the pastor. And if they weren’t at the top of their game, the whole experience was less than what it should be. But in the Mass, what we experience is truly the center is being Christ, because even if we have a liturgy that’s celebrated in a less than excellent way, maybe musically, or maybe the homily stinks that day, or the priest is having a bad day, yeah, those things make it not as great, but the Eucharist and the salvific effect of Christ coming into us, eating his flesh, drinking his blood, that is completely the center of that. And we receive that. And it was sort of like when that connected with me, everything changed. And when I don’t have that, I feel like, “Okay, we’re not doing this right.”
Cy Kellett:
I see what you’re saying. I mean, one of the things that’s very difficult, I think there’s two things. One is to invite Catholics into that experience and maybe you as a convert have the kind of chops to invite Catholics in, because I think many Catholics have gone to Mass a thousand times, but they don’t have the experience of the encounter with Christ in the Eucharist that makes it what it should be or could be for them.
Keith Nester:
That is a hundred percent right, and that’s what I feel like I’m here to do. I feel like with my ministry now, I think I have two purposes. The first one is to help people who have decided to become Catholic in that first transitional time. So I talk with a lot of people who are in that space. They’ve determined or they’re close to it and they want help with that. But also to help Catholics understand what they have and to help them experience what’s already theirs. Because a lot of people just take it for granted and they don’t recognize the treasure that exists in the field that they have. So sometimes seeing it through the eyes of a convert helps them to go, “Wow, I didn’t realize how awesome that was,” because when you’re just with it, it’s the air that you breathe.
I oftentimes think about this in the context of the transfiguration of Jesus. The disciples were with him for three years. They ate and drank with, they were with him, and I wonder if sometimes they took him for granted. But when Peter, James, and John got to see him transfigured, Christ wasn’t changed. He was always that amazing. It’s just that they were let into a greater level of revelation to what was already true about him. They were walking with the same Jesus that entire time. But now when they get a glimpse of his glory, a greater level of it, what do they do? They fall to their face and they’re just like, “Whoa, this is incredible.”
That’s the reaction I want people to have when they go to Mass, Cy. I want them to walk in and I want them to be like, “Whoa. There he is, the resurrected Jesus right there in the Tabernacles right there. He’s here with us. We’re at the foot of the cross. We’re at the Last Supper. We’re present with the angels and saints. This is amazing. I can’t just snooze through this.” And so that’s what I’m always harping on people about.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, I remember as a child, when you talk about just what you do when you come into Mass, part of how that was communicated to us as Catholic children was that you kneel down and talk to him. And that’s I think why it’s quiet is that that’s how you prepare for the Mass is he’s right there. Get on your knees and speak with him.
Keith Nester:
And that’s, again, what you just said there is the why behind the what. Most people don’t get that. So why is it quiet when you come into a Catholic Church? Whoa, tell them why. Because we’re preparing to receive Jesus. Once people know the why behind the what, even if they’re not Catholic, they can go, “Oh, okay.” I had a conversation with someone who they were saying, “Well, I don’t like how the priest wears those fancy robes. He’s making it all about them. He’s so flamboyant. And so, ‘Hey, everybody look at me.'”
And I’m like, “Do you have any idea why the priest wears those robes and the vestments? It’s because they don’t want to be the point.” I’m like, “When you go to church,” this person was in ministry in a Protestant church, I said, “You probably have to have a lot of thought that goes into what you’re going to wear that day because you know people are going to make comments to you about it, and you have to put forth a certain image.” I said, “You have no idea what the personal style of your priest is because you never see him in anything that reflects who he is. His vestments are there so that he can disappear, so that you can recognize his role as the priest offering the one true sacrifice of the Mass. So it’s not about him. He wears what he wears to take the focus off of him. What you wear puts the focus on you 100%.”
And then that person was like, “Oh, I never thought about it that way.” There’s so many things like that, Cy, in Catholicism where when we explain the why behind the what, now everyone goes, “Okay, I get it. It makes sense.” And when they do, then all the lights start going on.
Cy Kellett:
So just a couple more things before I have to let you go. So I’m a Catholic person and someone who’s maybe a Protestant, maybe agnostic or atheist, I begin to have the sense that they are moving towards the Catholic Church. Give me some tips, what to do, what to avoid.
Keith Nester:
Number one tip is you have to find a local parish with a priest that can help you. And that seems like it should be obvious, but that can be a challenge sometimes. If the one that you are plugged into isn’t helping you and they never call you back and you can’t get any time with the priest, move on down the road, find someone who can walk through that with you. That’s the number one thing. The number two thing I would say is this. In conjunction with that, start going to Mass, even if you’re not a Catholic, even if you can’t receive the sacrament, which you can’t at that point in time. Do everything you can do to walk that road and prepare yourself for it, and God will give you grace through that process.
Also at the same time, number three is this. Get yourself into the catechism of the Catholic Church. Know more and more and more what the Catholic Church teaches because a lot of people, even Catholics, are going to tell you wrong things about what the Catholic Church teaches. It’s very important for you to understand what the real truth of the Catholic Church is from the horse’s mouth. So I would say read the Catechism while you’re talking this through with a good priest and experiencing the things that you can in an awesome Catholic environment.
Cy Kellett:
Do you have the sense that sometimes we Catholics, we get really enthusiastic about, “The Novena to St. Joseph helped my grandchild,” or, “The Divine Mercy is everything for me,” and that maybe we come at the new Catholic with, “You got to do this,” when they don’t got to do that, that maybe we’re giving a piece of the pie instead of just welcoming them to the whole pie?
Keith Nester:
A hundred percent. And again, I talk about that in my book, which devotions should we start with, which things should we do? Everybody’s got their thing they love the best, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to be helpful to that person on their journey where they are. So it’s important as Catholics when we see people that are coming into the church to get to know them, get to know their story, get to find out what questions they have and where they’re itching so we can scratch where they’re itching instead of scratch where they’re not itching.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, okay. And with your book, The Convert’s Guide to Roman Catholicism: Your First Year in the Church, would you think that that might be something that you could use in RCIA, like a RCIA teacher?
Keith Nester:
Oh, sure.
Cy Kellett:
Like that would be appropriate?
Keith Nester:
Yeah, and there are a few churches that are doing that. I hear from people all the time that are saying, “Oh, hey, we got your book in RCIA or someone in our parish gave it to all of our candidates.” Yeah, I know some priests that are doing that, actually.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, if you get that, the earlier you get it maybe, the more helpful it’ll be in your journey.
Keith Nester:
I think so. I think so. But even it makes a great gift also to give to somebody on the Easter vigil if they’re coming in too. It’s an easy book to read too. It’s not going to take you forever to look through it, and I think it can be really helpful. It’s very practical, and I think it would be a great help for someone in that situation.
Cy Kellett:
So now what are you doing as a Catholic? Are you still in ministry or what’s your life now?
Keith Nester:
Well, it’s interesting, because I quit my job in the church. I went and got a regular job. I worked in my wife’s business as a photographer, and eventually we got out of that. But I worked in that world for a while. And then I started making videos after about a year and wrote this book and people started inviting me to come speak. So in 2020, I quit my jobs. I had two jobs at the time. I quit my jobs and I started trying to do ministry again full-time, and that’s what we’ve been doing ever since.
Cy Kellett:
And people can catch your video… Where I’ve seen them is on YouTube. Is that the main, just go to YouTube and look up Keith Nester?
Keith Nester:
Yeah, so I have that YouTube channel. Most of the stuff’s there. But my website is down2earthministry.org and it’s down, the number two, earthministry.org.
Cy Kellett:
Well, you’re doing wonderful work. So many people have brought your name up and said, “Hey, this is somebody for Focus,” and they were right, and I’m really glad you did it. Thanks for taking the time with us.
Keith Nester:
Thank you so much. I’m honored to be here.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, check out Keith Nester’s stuff on YouTube. It’s really, really good. That does it for us. If you want to get in touch with us about this episode, another episode or maybe an idea you’ve got for an episode, just shoot us an email, focus@catholic.com. Also, check out our other podcasts. Joe Heschmeyer’s got over at shamelessjoe.com, he’s got Shameless Popery. Karlo’s got his weekly Bible study, Apologetics, Finding the Apologetic Angle in the Sunday Readings, over at sundaycatholicword.com. Trent Horn, of course, over at trenthornpodcast.com. That’s a big one. Lots of people know about that one. And then Jimmy Akin’s got his Daily Defense. You can find that at catholic.com. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. Thanks a lot for being with us. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.