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Good apologetics is not just a quest to have the right answer. It is, instead, one tool in a larger struggle to win souls. This means that it involves spiritual battle. Our guest, Dan Burke, explains spiritual battle for apologists.
Cy Kellett:
You want to defend the church? Don’t neglect your own spiritual life. Dan Burke is next.
Cy Kellett:
Hello, and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett your host. I remember being a young California Catholic heading off to Boston College to study theology and somebody putting St. Teresa of Ávila’s book, The Way of Perfection, in my hands and I was not prepared for it. It was completely and utterly over my head at the time, but I couldn’t stop reading it. I read it cover to cover and never stopped thinking about it. I know it had a profound effect on me but even to this day I couldn’t tell you the nature of the effect it had on me. But I always felt from that time, about maybe 19 years old, that St. Teresa of Ávila was my friend and that I should attend her and listened to what she had to say.
Cy Kellett:
And so very delighted when Dan Burke, also a big, should I say fan? I don’t know if fan is strong enough word of St. Teresa, but after his latest book Devil in the Castle, St. Teresa of Ávila, Spiritual Warfare and the Progress of the Soul. What I wanted to talk with Dan Burke about was at an intellectual apostolate like this one here at Catholic Answers and in the intellectual apostolates that are happening on the local level all over, with the birth of the new apologetics people learning their faith, becoming well versed in their faith, going out and defending their faith, going out into the streets even and evangelizing. The laity are picking up the kind of mantle that was handed to them after the Second Vatican Council, to learn the faith and to be fully alive in it and to share it.
Cy Kellett:
Well, what about the spiritual lives of those who engage in that work? We know that many of you who listen are engaged in that work and we thought you would benefit, and I certainly thought I would benefit, from talking to Dan Burke about St. Teresa of Ávila, the great doctor of souls and what she has to say about engaging in spiritual battle, to be fully prepared to serve others and to share the good news. Here’s what Dan Burke had to say.
Cy Kellett:
Dan Burke, founder and president of the Avila Institute for Spiritual Formation. Thank you for being with us today.
Dan Burke:
It’s great to be with you. Love your ministry. It’s really important for the church. And I think I listened to it before I became Catholic if I remember right.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, well, thank you. That’s very kind of you to say. I would like to pick your brain a little bit today for the folks who follow us here on our Focus podcast because lots of them are working in this new apologetics area and trying to explain and defend the faith. I wonder sometimes if we are attentive enough to our spiritual life when we’re engaged in that intellectual combat. You have a new book, Devil in the Castle: St. Teresa of Ávila, Spiritual Warfare and the Progress of the Soul. Congratulations on the book.
Dan Burke:
Thank you.
Cy Kellett:
I want to start with a really basic question about the Progress of the Soul though.
Dan Burke:
Sure.
Cy Kellett:
Why do I have to contend with the devils? Why not just pray and live charitably and let other people, like the saints and the angels, deal with the demons?
Dan Burke:
Because God said to. We’re following … That’s a little simplistic. But of course Jesus is our model in all things and he contended with the enemy. St. Paul notes in Corinthians that we war not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. So if you don’t contend with the enemy, then you de facto lose and likely you’re going to lose your soul. So it’s a normative part of the Christian life and everyone needs to know how to fight. In our time the battle is way worse than it has been in even recent decades. It’s intensifying. And so that’s why I wrote Spiritual Warfare and Discernment of Spirits. It’s why I wrote Devil in the Castle is to wake Catholics up to what’s going on and how to fight.
Cy Kellett:
And Teresa of Ávila, why her? What is her role I in the kind of I suppose in the toolbox of spiritual warfare? What are her gifts?
Dan Burke:
Well, one, she helped me into the church and has been a big part of my life. But in the interior castle, which is what I based my book on, is the most important book on prayer in the history of the church that I’m aware of and I don’t think I’d find many arguments against that. In that book, she reveals that there is this pathway to God that includes various phases of spiritual development and growth and that there are specific ways that the enemy attempts to thwart us at each stage. There’s really nothing else like it really written with those two unique perspectives. The normative progress of the soul and then how the enemy engages us at each level. I just thought it would be extremely helpful to the faithful to understand it.
Cy Kellett:
So she uses a metaphor really, extended metaphor of the interior castle. But for her, it’s not just a metaphor that she dreamed up. This is how she experienced the spiritual life.
Dan Burke:
Well, it’s how she experienced it. But also, you know, like for instance, in Medina del Compo in Spain where she met John of the Cross. The story tells that they were both levitating as they were talking at the convent there. But there’s a castle within eye shot, if that’s a right use of language of that, within sight of that monastery or that convent. St. John of the Cross for 80 years lived in a monastery that was across the valley from a huge castle. So these were very common in their times and so she of course used it to help illustrate for the people of that time who also were familiar with castles and moats.
Cy Kellett:
Right, right. Can you maybe just say a word or two about her writing style? How is she as a stylist?
Dan Burke:
Difficult. Definitely not … You know, John had some tonistic formation. Teresa was very female in her writing style, which I’m not saying is problematic, but it’s not as linear as guys tend to communicate. She takes bunny trails and all of that and she talks about experiences and then principles and then argues with folks who she’s encountered and relays those things to us without telling who she was arguing against. Her works are harder to navigate if you will.
Cy Kellett:
So in this book, Devil in the Castle: St. Teresa of Ávila, Spiritual Warfare and the Progress of the Soul, you’re not quoting her, but sparingly most. It’s not it just a book of quotes and here’s what she said. You wanted to reflect more on her meaning. I suppose that writing style in a certain way you want to simplify it for people or clarify it.
Dan Burke:
Yeah, that’s exactly what I did. It’s probably my forte is boiling down a lot of complexity into some simple, not shallow, but clear, linear, stepwise approach to dissecting and understanding the interior life. What I tried to do is cut a path through … I guess if you could describe the difference between Teresa and I beside the fact that she’s a saint and I’m not, is you might describe her writings as this beautiful garden with all this complexity and beauty and flowers and whatever. I’m sort of like the concrete path in the middle of it. What I try to do is cut a concrete path through it.
Cy Kellett:
Right. You break your chapters down to kind of walk us through the very steps that she would walk us through, but as you said, it’s very easy to get turned around in her writing. But you give us the same steps that she gives us in the interior castle.
Dan Burke:
Yeah. But I simplify it. In the sixth mansion she says, “Well, let me give you keys to understanding whether or not elocution is from God.” And then she gives a list and takes a bunny trail. Comes back, gives another list, takes a bunny trail. Comes back and some of it’s repetitive because she didn’t edit her work. The only editing that was done was by her censors, whether it be the inquisition or her theological advisors. She didn’t have a computer. She basically wrote it stream of consciousness. What I did is turned those three separate lists into one list that has no repetition and hopefully it accurately gets to it.
Dan Burke:
But the other thing I did in the book was walking folks through each mansion, but then at the end of each chapter, summarizing the battle, the demonic goal, key tactics of the enemy, how to battle the tactics successfully and then encouragement because she always gives encouragement as well. No matter which way you slice it, I have no doubt anybody who reads is going to understand her better than ever before. Most people read The Interior Castle and walk away sort of dazed and thinking, “Wow, that was beautiful but I don’t know that I really understood it.” This is actually a good companion for it as well to understand her mindset and how she thought and that sort of thing.
Cy Kellett:
What you just described, when I was very young when I was in college, someone gave me The Way of Perfection and I actually had that experience of loving every word of reading it and getting to the end and thinking, I don’t know what that was about.
Dan Burke:
Let’s be honest. That’s really common.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to know, but I don’t think that I did. At least one thing that she did for me at that age was to point out that the interior life is a great, vast place, not a kind of cramped little place and the world is the big place. At least I think she communicated that to me or at least I was able to receive that from her whatever else she was communicating. Did you want to say something?
Dan Burke:
Well, yeah. I think that’s a really good point. One of the beautiful secrets about the interior life and about relationship with God is we’re finite and he’s infinite. So the exploration, the journey we get to go on of discovery never ends. I think sometimes as Catholics we can think, well, I understand prayer. Light switch on, light switch off but if you ask the average person, so then define vocal prayer. Okay, great. Now define meditation. Okay. Fewer people are interested in that. Now define contemplation. There’s this ever deepening, beautiful horizon that opens up every time you move toward God and toward his heart and toward his self-revelation. That’s what’s so powerful about Teresa and you really picked that up well from reading The Way of Perfection. It’s just this beautiful journey that never ends.
Cy Kellett:
Well, my concern about the new apologetics movement of which Catholic Answers is a part. As a matter of fact I think Karl Keating was one of the forces that began the new apologetics movement, is that we can be somewhat worldly in a way. That the apologist in a certain sense is a worldly person because the apologist is actually trying to answer the objections, the confusions, and even the deceptions of the world. Maybe you could reflect with me a little bit about what St. Teresa might say to the person who … She certainly wasn’t against the intellectual pursuits and she valued well-educated priests. She talks about that all the time. But what are the danger of undertaking an intellectual defense of the church? What are the spiritual dangers of it?
Dan Burke:
Well, I could give you a principle that if you followed as an apologist you’d do well and it would be following her advice. It’s one of the sayings of our community, the Apostoli Viae community, which is all things for God begin before God on our knees. And the reason that is, is because we more wisdom than we have. We need more strength than we have. We need more insight than we have. And if you’re really going to be able to connect with the heart and mind of another person, you have to see them through the eyes of Jesus himself. The only way to do that is to draw near to his heart in prayer and be vivified if you will, by your time with him.
Dan Burke:
If you’re going to try to serve the world as Martha certainly desired to do when Jesus visited she and Mary in Bethany, you need to first do what he said first, which is, Mary has chosen the better part, and this is more important than the service. Begin at his feet, that is listening, and then rise and go serve God’s people. I think combined with sound intellectual formation, that’s a formula that changes hearts and minds and reaches hearts and minds.
Cy Kellett:
Going back to the title of your book, Devil in the Castle, it defends us against the assaults of the devil. The person who decides they’ll make an avocation or a vocation of defending the church, is going to face abuse, demonic abuse so to speak and efforts to derail that person.
Dan Burke:
That’s really well said and dead on target. I think the normal Christian life is one where we are assaulting the gates of hell. It’s often read improperly, that scripture passage, as if gates move and they can’t attack the church. It’s not the way it’s really properly understood. It’s properly understood is that we raid hell and we break down the gates. We find the people who are inflicted by the devil and deceived by the devil and through whatever means necessary, bring them out. That means we come into confrontation. St. Paul said we war not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and against the strongholds that are in our minds and our hearts. But he speaks a lot about the mind and that the weapons of our warfare are divinely empowered.
Dan Burke:
A good apologist who understands the truth and understands how to love another person and deal with them in a very personal way, will be able to deal with the demonic. So they’re praying the St. Michael prayer to free up the other person’s heart and mind as they speak to them and then clear the room if you will, to give room for a conversation where they can even hear you. Apologetics in our time is all almost an impossible task because we’re in a post-rational society and apologetics presumes rationality. I think that we have to get to the hearts of people. We have to deal with the demonic and then that builds a bridge over which truth can pass.
Cy Kellett:
That is so helpful, that idea of living in a post-rational society. Very, very helpful. For the apologist who’s listening, because that’s primarily our audience, folks who are interested in apologetics. Help us with what they will find in St. Teresa in her interior castle. But the way you have presented it in The Devil in the Castle, what do we find as we take this little walk with her?
Dan Burke:
Well, for the professional apologist or the armchair apologist or the new apologist, whatever, which is supposed to be every Christian, everyone should be prepared to share the hope that lies within them as scripture says. If you are talking to someone and just yaking at them and you don’t really understand them, you’re not going to be very good at what you do. But if you gain an understanding for instance, of St. Teresa, of what is the normative pathway of a soul and what are the things you’re dealing with. I’ll give you an example. St. Teresa notes that as you begin to enter the castle, moving from the outer court of the castle into the castle, you will experience tremendous warfare because they know at that point you’re weaker than you will be later. They know if you get in and you settle down and really do pray, you’re going to be a very hard nut to crack for them.
Dan Burke:
They really throw a lot at you and she describes how that works. The drawing to the world and to the flesh, the drawing to notoriety or accomplishment or whatever. And so as an apologist you understand, I’m dealing with a person who’s outside of the courtyard and understand Teresa’s vision of what does that mean about the way a person in that state thinks. Apologists are not just to get people to go into the castle. They’re to get them to come first into the kingdom sometimes or maybe into later aspects of the castle. If you understand where they are, you’re going to have an insight into what they can even tolerate.
Dan Burke:
As another example, I try to dissuade people from … Usually the people who come to us are already peeking in the door but a lot of them have involvement in things like non-Christian Eastern Spiritualities or centering prayer, whatever. If I don’t understand where they are and what’s normative in terms of what the demons are doing with them, I may take an approach that is futile or going to confuse them or to advance or whatever. This sensitivity to the state of the soul is I think invaluable to the apologist in terms of how they argue, how they present truth.
Cy Kellett:
How many mansions are there in the castle?
Dan Burke:
Well there’s seven but not really. She describes seven, but she says there’s many more based on the individual and their particular path to God and so thousands, hundreds. I don’t really know. But all these little places where they encounter God and he reveals what they need to know and they’re given the opportunity to fight and progress as is necessary for their salvation.
Cy Kellett:
Is it the kind of thing where you can kind of recognize? I’m in mansion three right now. I’m trying to move to mansion … Almost like working on your black belt or something or is it not that?
Dan Burke:
Well, the human person has an infinite capacity for self-delusion. St., who was it? St. Bernard of Clairvaux said, “Whoever takes himself as his own spiritual director is the disciple of a fool.” You can do some self-assessment, but you’ve got to be really careful with it. This book is not for that purpose even though I give a tool for that. I do break down the seven castles into the Dionysian framework which is the purgative, illuminative and unitive ways. I give the person the ability to assess various aspects of their growth in God based on those three ways. You could use it that way, but I would just proceed with caution.
Cy Kellett:
Fair enough.
Dan Burke:
You go to a doctor to get treated by somebody who’s an expert. It’s really a good idea to consult with a spiritual director.
Cy Kellett:
A person picks up Devil in the Castle, meets St. Teresa and as the subtitle says, St. Teresa of Ávila, Spiritual Warfare and the Progress of the Soul. What’s your hope that they come away from having read this book.
Dan Burke:
That’s a very good question. We are in dark times and anyone who’s sober knows it isn’t going to get better anytime soon. We are under a torrent of assault in the church, outside of the church. In the church we had the McCarrick report which was … I used to be president of VWBT, president and CEO of VWTN News. I managed an entire global organization and the McCarrick report was a whitewash full of lies. We have this junk going on in the church and it’s because for whatever reason, we’re in a period where there is a rise and a greater freedom of the demonic. It’s because of our sin and probably we deserve it.
Dan Burke:
My hope is that people will understand the battle they’re in and win. The good news of our time is even a dim bulb is bright in a dark room so let’s get a bunch of dim bulbs lit up even more because we’ve got to be a light to the world. We are his hands and feet. We are the ones who bring gospel and pull people out of hell. But if we don’t know how to fight, you don’t know how to assault the gates, you’re going to be taken out yourself.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Boy, you started early in the book with a couple of images of Teresa herself seeing the demons.
Dan Burke:
Right. That’s awesome.
Cy Kellett:
I was like, oh, man.
Dan Burke:
Right.
Cy Kellett:
The actual immediate response is, I got to go to confession. I got to make sure that I keep going to confession.
Dan Burke:
That’s a good thought.
Cy Kellett:
Because it really is terrifying what she sees when she sees demons.
Dan Burke:
Yeah. I’ve been involved with many, many exorcisms as an assistant to an exorcist and I’ve heard them and seen what they do and it is terrifying. She describes, of course, in the book of her life, one of the experiences you’re referencing, which is a priest offering Mass who had two demons wrapped around his neck that the Lord showed her his affliction because he was in mortal sin, but he showed it to her to teach her that the Mass is not invalid based on the sinfulness of the priest. Of course, Augustine told us that in the 5th century, but she probably didn’t have access to his treatise against Donatus. But yeah, it’s really crazy. The other one is a guy at a funeral who’s got demons all around him just ready to take him body and soul to hell, which is crazy, you know?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Yeah. But it certainly is a reminder. There’s no way. You go to the news for the last few weeks. You could go years, but you don’t have to go years. Just in the last few weeks. You think there’s a raging mania in the mind of the world right now and it does have … One is very reluctant to say, well, the demons have nothing to do with that because it looks awfully demonic.
Dan Burke:
Yo, gosh, no, listen. There’s an old saying amongst people in the field of deliverance or a common saying which is, well, possession is uncommon. And one of the exorcists I work with recently said to me, “I don’t think we should say that anymore because it really actually isn’t.” You talk to any exorcist of any diocese and they’re overwhelmed with cases.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Dan Burke:
I think the demonic is on the loose. The Black Lives Matter movement as an example. I did a piece in Crisis Magazine about them and about their founders and how they are into the occult and admit it openly. All I did was quote. It was easy. I just went to one of their interviews and quoted, they say, “Say the name”, which is an invocation of a demon in the process of their protests. I go to predominantly black church so if anyone hears that as racist, that it would be just kind of ridiculous, but it’s real. You just got to do the research and look it up. So it’s demonic, what’s going on.
Cy Kellett:
It reminds me of that video that came out some years ago of pro-abortion protestors actually saying, “Hail, Satan”, repeating the words, “Hail, Satan.”
Dan Burke:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Now they said, of course they were doing this to annoy the Christians who were there protesting abortion. But one doesn’t say, “Hail, Satan” for no reason at all.
Dan Burke:
Look, you call into the darkness, something’s going to come. And it doesn’t always come but it’s at its mercy. But in our time more’s coming. I would really say, I don’t know if you are aware of these prayers, but if I were in the realm of apologetics as a norm, I’d be praying the Auxilium Christianorum prayers every day which is a spiritual warfare prayers. It’s a worldwide community of exorcists and people like me and my wife who are involved in deliverance ministry. We all pray for one another every day. And it’s A-U-X-I-L-I-U-M Christianorum. There’s two sets of prayers, one for priests and one for the laity. There’s actually an app for that.
Dan Burke:
And if I were in apologetics, I would do that because they’re the kind of prayers as you see them really can help clear the room and clear the minds. Because if you have somebody’s who’s afflicted even if they’re oppressed and not possessed, they’re still very open to hearing the voice of the enemy and the arguments against you will come aided because of course demons are a lot more intelligent than we are, not necessarily wise, but very intelligent. If we don’t clear the air, I think we’re not going to be as successful as we otherwise would.
Cy Kellett:
I find it very helpful to talk to you. I’m very grateful that you took the time to talk with us. I do think this is a very important topic for anyone who undertakes to explain or defend or in any other way, promote the Christian faith, the faith in the Lord Jesus. Devil in the Castle is the name of the book, St. Teresa of Ávila, Spiritual Warfare and the Progress of the Soul. Dan Burke, thank you very much for taking the time to be with us.
Dan Burke:
And great being with you.
Cy Kellett:
Devil in the Castle, St. Teresa of Ávila, Spiritual Warfare and the Progress of the Soul is the new book by Dan Burke. Maybe you can pick up a copy. I think you will not be sorry that you did. St. Teresa’s writing is so … Yeah, it’s difficult. You’re working your way through a lot when you’re working through her writing, but it’s so rewarding. Dan Burke works very hard to give you the rewards without having to quite battle so much against language that comes from centuries ago and is very, very difficult. Thanks very much to Dan Burke for joining us.
Cy Kellett:
Thank you for joining us. If you want to communicate with us, send us an email focus@catholic.com. We love getting your emails. Maybe you’ve got an idea for a future episode. If you do, just send it off to us, focus@catholic.com. If you’d like to support us financially, we do need your financial support to keep doing what we’re doing and you can give that support by going to givecatholic.com, givecatholic.com. And as always, if you’re watching on YouTube, subscribe. Hit that little bell so you’ll be notified when new episodes are available and help us to grow our numbers and reach more and more people via YouTube.
Cy Kellett:
If you are a listener who listens via podcast service, if you subscribe, you’ll be notified when new episodes are available. If you give us that nice review and maybe I don’t know, 3, 4, 5 stars, then that will also help bring others to this podcast. We’d like to share it with as many as we can and we thank you for your help and support in doing that. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. Thanks again to Dan Burke our guest. We’ll see you next time God willing right here on Catholic Answers Focus.