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Our own Tim Staples discusses the Catholic claim that there is no salvation outside the Church? How are we to understand this truth, and what does it mean for those who do not enter the Church?
Cy Kellett:
Can we settle this once and for all? Is there or is there not salvation outside the Catholic Church? Tim Staples next.
Hello and welcome again to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett your host. And you might’ve noticed recently we’ve been talking about the church with Tim Staples. Kind of a series of conversations we’ve had about different aspects of the church. This time, we talk about whether or not there is salvation outside the church. And it’s one of those Catholic yes and no questions. I mean, in an absolute sense, no. But can somebody be not visibly Catholic at all and be saved? Yes. So what does that mean? We’ll get into all that. And all of that comes from a course that Tim’s did for our School of Apologetics, which I hope you will check out. Schoolofapologetics.com is where you go, schoolofapologetics.com. And check out all the courses there.
This is something that those of us here at Catholic Answers have been dreaming about for a long time. Some for decades, and now we have it. A School of Apologetics. You can get a basic introduction to Catholic apologetics, introduction to moral apologetics, and Tim’s course on Evidence for the Church, and many other courses at schoolofapologetics.com. Here’s what Tim had to say about whether or not there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Tim Staples, welcome back. Thanks for being with us again.
Tim Staples:
Great to be with you, my brother.
Cy Kellett:
Kind of continuing a series of conversations based on your course, Evidence for the Church.
Tim Staples:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
At the School of Apologetics. Available now at the schoolofapologetics.com. Okay. Here’s a tough one because the church has taught very, very clearly on this. I believe in, I don’t remember the Latin, but I, it has something to do with, if you go to Calvary Chapel, you are not saved.
Tim Staples:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
Is that what extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means that if you are a Calvary Chapel-Christian or any other or anything, it’s not just Catholic.
Tim Staples:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett:
You’re not going to make.
Tim Staples:
It not on the registry at a Catholic parish, you are going to hell. No. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. And in fact, never has the Catholic Church taught that. And thanks be to God.
Cy Kellett:
Many people do not believe that. Do not believe that the church never…
Tim Staples:
I know.
Cy Kellett:
Well, even if they say, “Well, the church doesn’t teach that now” they will say, “Well, they did at one time teach that.”
Tim Staples:
Yes, yeah. And actually the church never did. And most importantly, Jesus didn’t. Because, when you look at the reasons undergirding, the dogma as you mentioned, it is an infallible teaching of the church. There is no salvation outside of the church. The foundation of that teaching is in Jesus Christ. In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the father except by me.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
It doesn’t get much more plain than that. And, because the church is, as we talked about in our last Focus we did together, because Jesus or the church is Jesus extended into this world, of course the church is going to say the same thing her master says.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Ah, that’s a very good one.
Tim Staples:
Apart from the church, there is no salvation because we are Jesus extended into this world. But here’s the key, Cy. To help folks to understand, if you go to the very next chapter, John 15, I think 15 follows 14. Is my math still?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. That’s amazing, the things you know.
Tim Staples:
Because I know they’re trying to change math now.
Cy Kellett:
Well, there’s the new math. Yeah, right.
Tim Staples:
Well, you know that racist math. But anyway, the trying to change mathematics. All right. Well the very next chapter, Jesus says in Matthew, in John 15 verse 22, if I had not spoken to them, they would have no sin. Now I have spoken to them, their sin remains.
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Tim Staples:
Jesus also can’t make it any more plain, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Tim Staples:
Yes. There’s no salvation apart from Jesus Christ. But just as the catechism of the Catholic Church in paragraph 8:41 says, “That is written, aimed at those who know.” If you know, and I’ll add Lumen Gentium paragraph 14 to the equation here. Homework everybody read it. It’s glorious. “Those who know the church was established by Jesus Christ for salvation, and then would refuse either to enter into it or remain in it, cannot be saved.” That’s Vatican Council II. Check it out Lumen Gentium 14. And that’s what Jesus is saying here. And you have to understand it that way because right after he says, “I am the way the truth and life, no man comes to the father, except by me.” He says, “If I have not spoken to them, they would have no sin.” So he’s saying, if you know this. If you don’t, you don’t have sin, right?
Tim Staples:
Now, in order to merit eternal life, there’s more to this puzzle here. It’s not enough just to be ignorant of the truth. You have to be what the Catholic Church calls invincibly ignorant. That is not responsible for your ignorance because, in other words, you can’t just say, oh, I don’t want to hear la la la la. Cy Kellett don’t tell me about Jesus. I don’t want. No. No.
Tim Staples:
Invincible ignorance means you’re not responsible for your ignorance. Further, you must cooperate with the grace of God where you are in ways often we don’t know. Now we know folks outside of the church, by way of the Orthodox, they have seven sacraments. Our Protestant friends have two sacraments. We have Jews and Muslims who have a great foundation in their belief in one God. And as we move further out, there are other foundational beliefs that individuals can have that either joined them with us in an imperfect way, or they are related to us by these various beliefs. And most importantly, by cooperating with the grace of God that they are given where they are. God alone is the judge. We just evangelize everybody because we want everybody to have the ordinary means of sanctification which comes through the Catholic Church alone.
Tim Staples:
That is the fullness of the means of salvation, including papacy, sacraments, the whole bit. But, the key here is, and this really helped me in a very large way, in my own odysseys of Catholic faith, because a sort of radical, you can’t be saved outside of the Catholic Church, to me is not Christ. That’s not Jesus.
Cy Kellett:
No. Right.
Tim Staples:
For Jesus to say, yeah but the guy that’s born somewhere in the middle of India, that’s never heard of Jesus Christ and dies, he’s going to go to hell for all eternity. I mean, that bugged me even when I was Protestant. Because we used to say the same thing other than not the church part, but we would say, don’t know Jesus, you’re going to hell absolutely. There’s a lot of that in evangelical and especially fundamentalist Christianity. But the good news is, see, you don’t discard the truth that Jesus is the only way.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Tim Staples:
When you say there’s a possibility of the grace of Christ reaching souls who are invincibly ignorant in ways at times known to God alone as long as they have not rejected. And in the same way, we who are Catholic, of course it follows. If you have not rejected the Catholic Church, rejected the truth that you knew, you have the possibility of salvation. We’re not jettisoning no salvation outside of the church when we say it’s possible for those graces that come ultimately from the church to be communicated to those who don’t have a formal relationship with the church, but they have some sort of salvific relationship with the church.
Cy Kellett:
And though, and that person might be completely ignorant of even the existence of the Catholic Church.
Tim Staples:
Absolutely.
Cy Kellett:
And so in this life, okay, so that person dies, but they find out about their participation? That’s what happens?
Tim Staples:
Amen. Not only will they find, because everybody in heaven and in hell, all of them are Catholic. Because everybody knows because those who are condemned of course will know exactly why. And they will know what they rejected. So they’re Catholic. And of course, those who are saved will know. And in fact, beautifully, Cy, in the judgment and on the way, if we have to go to purgatory, right? And on our way to the beatific vision, this whole puzzle will be unfolded to us. Ultimately, fully understood when we attain to the beatific vision. We will know exactly how that Indian that I mentioned, who was a Hindu in the middle of India somewhere who knows. He will know exactly how the grace of God was communicated. The grace of the sacraments were communicated to him in the middle of India somewhere. He didn’t even know who Jesus was, but he was receiving the grace of Christ by cooperating with the grace he was given right where he was.
Cy Kellett:
So, it does seem like the extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, outside the church, there is no salvation. That’s a very absolute-sounding thing.
Tim Staples:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
And then Christ himself says things in absolute terms that we’re often told, yes, he’s saying that in absolute terms, but you have to properly think of it. Like I’m thinking of, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you.
Tim Staples:
Amen. Good point.
Cy Kellett:
Well, there’s many people who don’t, at least we don’t see them eat his flesh and drink his blood.
Tim Staples:
Amen.
Cy Kellett:
But you say they still can have life within them.
Tim Staples:
Amen.
Cy Kellett:
And how can you say that without contradicting an absolute? Do you see what I’m saying?
Tim Staples:
That’s right. This is the same principle. And we could say with baptism as well, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right.
Tim Staples:
Mark 16:16, “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved,” right? First Peter 3:21, “Baptism does now save us.” Romans 6:3, “We are buried together with him through baptism.” So how can people be saved that are not baptized?
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Tim Staples:
It’s the same principle. And, as you mentioned, a deft usage of John 6:53, “Unless you eat the flesh on a man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” All of these, and really this is the reason why apologetics is so important in the life of the church and teaching our kids the faith, and teaching people in seminaries and such. Because these things really do all connect. And once you understand why there’s no salvation apart from Jesus.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
But, for those invincibly ignorant, they can receive the grace of Christ by their cooperation with grace right where they are. Same with regard to the church. Well this applies with the Eucharist. If you know that the Eucharist is necessary for your salvation and you refuse to receive our Lord in the Eucharist.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Tim Staples:
You will not go to heaven. As the council of Trent says in its, what session is that? I want to say seven. Was it session seven on the sacraments, where it says all of the sacraments are necessary. In fact, I talk about this in the course. All of the sacraments are necessary for salvation. Not that we have to receive each one because we’re not all called to say holy orders and such. But they’re all necessary in accordance our particular callings. And if we know about their necessity and have failed to avail ourselves, we will be lost including things like confirmation. Confirmation is also necessary, not in a strict sense like baptism. But it’s necessary in as much as we need the strength of the sacrament of confirmation in order to endure till the end and so be saved.
Tim Staples:
But all of these have to be understood in that greater context of, as the council of Trent says in three separate places, including session six on justification and session seven, I believe, on the sacraments. In three different places, that the reception of the sacraments or the desire therefore, are necessary for salvation. So even in the midst of the council of Trent declaring this in a definitive way, it inserts that or the desire there for. Why? Because if we cannot get to the sacrament of the Eucharist, whether it’s because of invincible ignorance, whether it’s because of times of persecution, whether it’s there’s a moral reason or a physical reason even that we can’t get there, we can receive the grace of the sacrament by our desire. Pope Francis talked about this during COVID.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right.
Tim Staples:
When there are extraordinary times where a priest is not available, you pray, you make an act of spiritual communion. My Lord, I long to receive you with the purity and humility and devotion with what your most holy mother received you with the spirit and fervor of the saints. Say, that’s the one I like to say. But you can say it in your own words. When you make that act of love toward our Lord, you received grace.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
And so think of it that way, Cy.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
That the person who’s never heard of the sacraments, but is crying out to God. If he knew, I like the way the catechism says it in paragraph 12:61, 12:60 and 12:61 in the catechism it has the church about baptism. It says, “Even for the atheist, if they would have known about baptism, they would have desired it.” Right?
Tim Staples:
If they would have known that is those who are truly seeking out God, maybe not even in explicit terms as Vatican Council II Lumen Gentium 16 says, it’s not necessarily even in explicit terms. You can have a person, Cy, who says he’s an atheist. But if you sit down and really talk to him, he’s not rejecting God. He’s rejecting a flying spaghetti monster.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right, right.
Tim Staples:
He’s rejecting a God of vengeance or a God who hates or a God this or that. And in his heart and hearts, he’s crying out for truth. That person as well can be receiving the grace of the sacraments by their desire for truth, who was ultimately a person.
Cy Kellett:
Ah, it’s good news. It’s fascinating to think of the moment after death of all of us understanding either if we’ve been in the church, I’m sure we’ll be surprised at the extent of it.
Tim Staples:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
And much of that we only know this little, tiny bit.
Tim Staples:
Amen. [inaudible 00:15:13].
Cy Kellett:
But also to know, to think of the person who understands for the first time, the love of God.
Tim Staples:
Oh my goodness.
Cy Kellett:
And that they’ve, that where they could, they responded to it.
Tim Staples:
That’s the key.
Cy Kellett:
Now they can have the fullness of it.
Tim Staples:
That is the key. And we also have to remember as Lumen Gentium 16 also points out, that often, those who claim atheism are where they are because they’ve rejected God, right?
Cy Kellett:
Oh yeah.
Tim Staples:
And people who are not in the church, we don’t know who they are, but they could be sitting in Bob’s Baptist church every Sunday. And they’re on their way to hell. Why? Because they rejected the one holy Catholic and apostolic church, for whatever reason, they were divorced and remarried outside of the church. I’m leaving the church, then become a Baptist pastor or whatever. Guess what? You’re still going to hell.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Tim Staples:
Because you have rejected the truth. Nothing can come before God. Now we can’t judge because we don’t know. So what do we do? We love everybody. And we share the fullness of our Catholic faith with everyone. And we let God take care of the judging.
Cy Kellett:
We have to love everybody?
Tim Staples:
Everybody.
Cy Kellett:
Ah, come on, Tim. All right. Thanks very much.
Tim Staples:
Okay, brother, God bless you.
Cy Kellett:
You too.
To me, it’s very interesting to hear Tim say the church never taught, not that it once taught and has reformed that teaching or once even implied and has reformed that teaching, but the church never taught that only a Catholic could be saved. Someone who’s explicitly a Catholic in this world could be saved. But the church has also never taught that you can be saved apart from Jesus or from his church. Those things can’t happen. In one way or another, you have to be attached to Christ and his church in order to be saved. But that attachment well, that’s a different matter. And In many cases, a mysterious matter, I suppose, would be the way to say it.
Thanks for joining us here on Catholic Answers Focus. If you’ve enjoyed this, you probably will enjoy Tim’s class, which is called EvidencefortheChurch@schoolofapologetics.com. Evidence for the church. If you want to send us an email, send it to focus@catholic.com and don’t forget it costs money to do all this. And if you want to financially support us, we’d be very grateful for that. You can do that at givecatholic.com. Like and subscribe if you’re watching on YouTube. And if you listen on another podcast service, and you subscribe, that way you will be notified each time a new episode comes out. If you wouldn’t mind, we’d also love that five-star review. Maybe a few words about what you get out of Focus. That really does help to grow the podcast. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. Very grateful that you spend this time with us. Really grateful if you do that five-star review. We’ll see you next time, God-willing, right here at Catholic Answers Focus.