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St. Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” might well have been a moral failing that he simply could not overcome. Father Hugh Barbour explains how this reading of 2 Corinthians offers those of us who struggle with habitual sin a liberating glimpse into the personal and unfailing love of God.
Cy:
What was that thorn in St. Paul’s flesh? Father Hugh Barber is next.
Cy:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcasts for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett your host. And you may be surprised to find this out, but almost every single one of our listeners is a living human being who struggles with sin because being a living human being means struggling with sin. And that’s what this episode is about. Often that passage in the second letter to the Corinthians where St. Paul talks about the thorn in his flesh, the angel of Satan that comes to abuse him. We think of that as a physical ailment, and it may well be, but there’s a very long tradition in the Catholic church that it’s not a physical ailment. That it’s a sin or a proclivity to sin or an inclination to sin that St. Paul just couldn’t overcome.
Cy:
There’s really good news in that interpretation of it, really joyful news. And father Hugh Barber gets right into it. Before we get into that conversation with Father Hugh Barber, however, I would ask you to subscribe to this podcast, wherever you get your podcasts-Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher-and maybe give us that five-star review. Could you? That helps to grow the podcast. Now we’ll find out from Father Hugh what one long tradition in the Catholic church teaches about that thorn in St. Paul’s flesh and why that is really good news for you and me.
Cy:
I want you to help me with St. Paul from the second letter to the Corinthians, he talks about a thorn in the flesh that was given to him. An angel of Satan to beat me to keep me from being too elated. Three times, I begged the Lord about this that it might leave me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you for power is made perfect in weakness.” I will rather boast most gladly of my weakness in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me. What could that possibly mean “power is made perfect in weakness”?
Fr. Hugh:
Those are very powerful words in and of themselves and very helpful to us. We who look every day, hopefully, on the walls of our room or in the house of the crucifix and recognize that Christ Jesus is God who has chosen to take upon himself the burden of human sin and endure the weakness which is the effect of that sin. Not the moral weakness, in our Lord’s case, but endure the full weight of the effects of our sin.
Fr. Hugh:
So it’s our Lord in the first place who gives us the example because the cross of Christ is, of course, power. It’s a victory. In St. John’s writings, it’s the glory of God. It’s the revelation of Christ. And so we’re often tempted, especially in midst of our struggles nowadays, to wonder about why it is that God allows us, in spite of our practice of the faith… Say, you go to daily mass and you receive communion every day, or you go to confession frequently also. You pray the rosary every day. You make every effort to live a Catholic life, and you also try to fulfill your duties, and so on. You strive to serve others and so on. And yet, you still have besetting sins that don’t seem to go away, or you’re still tempted to besetting sins. This can be very discouraging in the young as well as in the old.
Cy:
Yeah, maybe more discouraging in the old given that we’ve had time. Like, “Lord, how many chances have you given me to get this straightened out?”
Fr. Hugh:
I’ve got about 20 years left at max. When am I going to get my act together, right?
Cy:
Exactly. Yeah.
Fr. Hugh:
But with St. Paul, it’s so beautiful because St. Paul was, in a certain sense, graced beyond all the other apostles. Let me take a sip of this coffee here, speaking of power being [crosstalk 00:04:14]
Cy:
Yeah. You need a little bit of power for your weakness from the coffee?
Fr. Hugh:
Right. And so consider St. Paul who was a very strong personality. I mean, he was a real blowhard, but he knew what he was talking about both as an observant Jew and also as a convert under the power of Christ. I mean, he was a force to be reckoned with. And so in 2 Corinthians 11, he just goes on and on about his qualifications so that he can verify his position as a true apostle. Because, of course, he wasn’t one of the original 12, and yet he is truly an apostle, but an apostle chosen by the Lord after his ascension into heaven so without any earthly witnesses. And so St. Paul was always having to defend himself against these cavaliers that said, “Well, he’s not really an apostle. There was Judas and he left and then they chose Matthias. But this Paul, who is he?”
Cy:
Who is he? Yeah.
Fr. Hugh:
And so he’s always having to defend himself. And defend himself, he did, and very vehemently. That’s a nice aspect because St. Thomas says, “You’re not forbidden to defend your reputation and you’re not forbidden to seek to have a good reputation. If for some reason that’s taken away, that’s a trial that you’re supposed to endure by the Providence of God. But everyone has the right to his own good name and to a right understanding of his good work.” So when your good deeds are interpreted in an evil way, and sometimes that happens, you have the right to defend yourself. That’s the foundation of society, practically.
Fr. Hugh:
So St. Paul defends himself, but it’s wonderful from a point of view of convincing rhetoric and of a message that really has depth. He first defends himself with all his human virtues, physically, morally, based on his background, his knowledge, everything. And then he says, “Well, not only that, but I know a man.” And then he switches to the third person because it’s so over the top that he doesn’t want to say I, I, I. So he says, “That I know a man who 14-years-ago, was caught up to the third heaven. Whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know. God knows. And I know that this man was caught into the paradise. Whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know. God knows. And he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.” So St. Paul is saying he is lifted up to heaven.
Fr. Hugh:
Now, strictly speaking, people who are still in this world before death, don’t have the beautification of God. But St. Paul is saying that, at least for a moment, at least for an instant, he was given some grace like that. It’s a pretty amazing claim. And then he goes on and he says, “Though if I wish to boast, I shall not be a fool for I shall be speaking the truth.” So he insists on it. “And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated.” So he was given by God. He says that explicitly. Given by God a thorn in the flesh, something as a messenger of the accuser. Now that means a messenger of someone who accuses you of being morally at fault. Because messengers say-
Cy:
Do you think this was a human or a demon?
Fr. Hugh:
A demon.
Cy:
A demon. Okay.
Fr. Hugh:
A messenger of Satan. I mean, in a sense, at least it comes from Satan and that it’s a moral accusation. And it’s some weakness of his that he’s had to endure this thorn in the flesh. “And I begged the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But He said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ I will all the more gladly boast in my weaknesses that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”
Fr. Hugh:
So here we have it that he’s willing, in spite of all of his great qualities, the reasons why he should be taken serious as an apostle, even though he’s been lifted up to the third heaven, has heard things that even angels don’t understand and that it’s not permitted anyone to utter, that he’s willing to have this humiliating, and this is the point, humiliating trial which confirms his confidence in the power of God. Now that’s truly an amazing thing.
Cy:
Isn’t that something? Okay. I think I see where you’re going. Right, right.
Fr. Hugh:
Right. And now, so do you have any questions about where I’m going?
Cy:
Yeah. So part of what must be happening to him by suffering this humiliation of this accusation, which is not necessarily a false accusation, apparently. It’s a true accusation.
Fr. Hugh:
No, no. He’s confessing it.
Cy:
Yeah. So is that-
Fr. Hugh:
To keep him from being too elated. It’s something that would make him ashamed.
Cy:
But what it’s doing, in part, is making it impossible for him to rely on himself. It’s making him utterly dependent on the mercy of Christ. Because if he’s going to rely on his own goodness, it ain’t going to work.
Fr. Hugh:
Exactly.
Cy:
Okay. So that’s where the power in the weak… It’s in his weakness and in the acknowledgment of his weakness that he has to open himself to the redeeming power of Christ because otherwise, he got nothing.
Fr. Hugh:
Right. Exactly. And so when people ask themselves, Well, I prayed. I made efforts. I avoided the occasions of sin. I did this. I did that. And then I still fell into sin.”
Cy:
Yeah. Right.
Fr. Hugh:
So what’s wrong? Now, if you were a Calvinist, you’d think, “Well, maybe I’m not among the elect. Maybe this I’ve fallen into sin is a sign that I’m not destined for heaven.” Okay. And there are even some Catholics that think this way because they’ll read a meditation by St. Alphonsus on the defined number of sins after which God doesn’t pardon you anymore. All those scary homilies. Well, he preached those to cloistered nuns.
Cy:
Oh, did he? These are not exactly-
Fr. Hugh:
He was preaching them to the morally cromulent. They thought they were okay but they weren’t.
Cy:
He was trying to wake them up.
Fr. Hugh:
These convents of very loose living, easy-going, rich, noble convents of sisters that lived together and had their friends in at parties and whatnot. I mean, so he was really hard on them. But even so, our Lord has mercy and I’m sure he loved them too. Therese of Lisieux was one of those in the beginning.
Fr. Hugh:
So this particular assertion of his is most helpful to us who struggle, especially who struggle with sins of the flesh. He said, “It’s a thorn in the flesh. A messenger of Satan.” All right. Now, granted, you have very sanitized interpretations of this that are not willing to have any notion that St. Paul might’ve had some real moral fault because he is so lofty. St. Paul, if you look at the way the church venerates St. Paul and St. Peter, he’s among the holiest of the Holy. So you’ve got Our Lady, St. Joseph, John the Baptist. Then you’ve got Peter and Paul. It’s right there.
Fr. Hugh:
And so you don’t want to consider sin in their case. You have a certain filial respect. But he himself is the one who says it that God gave me all of this, but still even gave me the vision of himself, if that’s how you could interpret that one message…
Cy:
And look what I am still.
Fr. Hugh:
… and still, I am continually troubled by this thorn in the flesh. Now that didn’t mean he gave into it. But the fact is, even if he did, that would be a thorn in the flesh. Now, what is this thorn in the flesh? This is what I want to talk about. Go ahead.
Cy:
Oh. Well, when you think about there’s some sins that are lofty spiritual sins and some that are more carnal.
Fr. Hugh:
And I don’t think that this is a lofty spiritual one.
Cy:
No. And so the carnal would be lust or gluttony or anger or…
Fr. Hugh:
Or attachment to material things.
Cy:
Oh, yeah. Right. Right.
Fr. Hugh:
Reputation. Anything that involves a kind of sensuality. And, of course, pride is contrary to what virtue? Temperance.
Cy:
Okay.
Fr. Hugh:
Right. Humility is a form of temperance.
Cy:
Oh. So it could be even something like drinking. It could be.
Fr. Hugh:
It could be drinking. But pride, anything that’s inordinate enjoyment of some good has to do with temperance.
Cy:
Yeah.
Fr. Hugh:
And so that’s it. I don’t mean temperance like in the temperance movement, but it could be drinking. I doubt that St. Paul was a drunk, but maybe. I really doubt it.
Cy:
Okay. But it could be any of these. Is it something fleshy though, something carnal?
Fr. Hugh:
It could be a temptation to anything. Well, he says it’s a thorn in the flesh. Now that could still be in the imagination, in the memory. It doesn’t mean that he was out doing things that he should not do. Who knows? But it could have meant that. It could have been certain falls. I mean, he knew the scriptures, the scriptures are full of the fall of Adam, the sins of Noah, the sins of David, for Heaven sakes.
Cy:
Could he have had a eye for the ladies? Just been a guy that that more kind of rubbernecks like that?
Fr. Hugh:
Again, I don’t want to speak quite so vulgarly of him. But the fact is whatever it was, it could be that.
Cy:
It could be. Okay.
Fr. Hugh:
Absolutely. And so I’m trying to do this subtly without being too outrageous. Go ahead. It could have been all kinds of things. It could have been temptation to solitary vice to adultery to fornication to anything. All right?
Cy:
I wasn’t trying to get you…
Fr. Hugh:
No, we want to say it. I’m glad you brought it up because that’s the playing field of people…
Cy:
This is what horrifies us about ourselves.
Fr. Hugh:
… the playing field of people’s discouragement is that even though they believe very strongly, they still fall into these awful sins.
Cy:
Even though they have instances of great intimacy with God where you would think, “I’ll never betray you,” we just turn around and betray him the next minute.
Fr. Hugh:
I was baptized a month after I was born. I made my first communion and prayed the rosary every day with my family. Then I was confirmed and I went off to a nice Catholic college. I met nice Catholic young people, went to daily mass, blah, blah, and all the things. Why am I still being attacked by these thorns in the flesh? St. Paul’s message.
Cy:
I’m sorry if I was vulgar. I apologize.
Fr. Hugh:
No, no, you weren’t. I was probably more vulgar than you were. But the point is, is just that yes, any of these things are possible and I can prove to you that they’re possible by using the authority which will close the mouths of any people that are so peevish and prissy as not to be able to interpret this passage in its clear meaning. Am angel saying, “I’ll show you-
Cy:
The problem with being prissy about these things, if I may…
Fr. Hugh:
Yes, you may.
Cy:
… is a failure to appreciate the mercy of the Lord.
Fr. Hugh:
Exactly.
Cy:
If you’re prissy about this, then you’re never going to appreciate how much he loves you.
Fr. Hugh:
Exactly.
Cy:
Yeah.
Fr. Hugh:
You won’t appreciate that he forgave you because, after all, did you even notice I’m so terribly sorry? I thought it took care of that. No. And it’s right here where he says, “A thorn has given the flesh a messenger of Satan, which means the accuser, to harass me and keep me from being too elated.” So it has to be something that’s making him humble and it’s a thorn in the flesh harassing him. Okay? He asked the Lord to relieve him of it and he doesn’t. And the Lord says, “No, my power is made perfect in weakness.” And so St Paul says, “Gladly, will I boast of my weakness. Boast of it that the grace of Christ may be made perfect in me.”
Cy:
That’s someone who loves the Lord.
Fr. Hugh:
Exactly. So let’s look at what a St. Thomas says about this. It’s kind of interesting. He’s talking, then St. Thomas’s commentary on 2 Corinthians, from which has come 2 Corinthians chapter 12. He says, “In regard to this, it should be noted that very often a wise physician procures and permits a lesser disease to come over a person in order to cure or avoid a great one. This, the apostle shows was done to him by the physician of souls, our Lord Jesus Christ. For Christ, as a Supreme physician of souls, in order to cure grave sins, permits many of his elect to be afflicted gravely in diseases of the body. And which is more for curing greater sins, like pride, permits them to fall into lesser and even mortal sins.”
Cy:
oh, that’s hard to take.
Fr. Hugh:
That’s what he says, “God permits them to fall so that… ” It says, “It permits many of them to be gravely afflicted so that he can cure them of their sin.” All right. That’s a consideration. How hard or nut am I to crack? Well, maybe I’m a hard nut to crack. And then he goes on. He says later on, “Therefore, because the matter of this vice that is pride is mainly found in things that are good because this matter is something good because in pride is the inordinate love of one’s own good. God sometimes permits his elect to be prevented by something on their part, infirmity or some other defect.” Sometimes, even physical weakness is enough to humiliate someone. That’s really true.
Cy:
Sure. Yeah.
Fr. Hugh:
That’s definitely true. “Infirmity or some other defect, and sometimes even mortal sin from obtaining such a good in order that they may be so humbled on this account, that they will not take pride in it. And that being thus humiliated, they may recognize that they cannot stand by their own powers.” It’s right there.
Cy:
That’s it. There it is. Yeah.
Fr. Hugh:
So why does God let me fall into mortal sin? Let’s just ask the question. So that I’ll learn to be humble and not rely on my own strength. Which means that when I fall, I’ve got to get up again. And the message that God wants to send us by a serious fall into grave sin is the message we get after. That is get up. Rise up. Make use of the grace of Christ. Go to confession and keep on trying.
Cy:
Amen. Yeah.
Fr. Hugh:
That’s the lesson. Not the-
Cy:
And that which is also a childlike posture of dependence on a Father who loves you.
Fr. Hugh:
Exactly. This was the message of Therese of Lisieux was that God is the God of the weak. It’s the gospel of imperfection, practically speaking, not the gospel of perfectionist.
Cy:
Isn’t that beautiful.
Fr. Hugh:
Right there, she says that God stoops down. And what he wants is children who trust him utterly. He’s looking for souls that will just trust him no matter what. So he goes on and he quotes from a Romans, which is so beautiful when he says that, “He sometimes permits even mortal sin in order that they may be so humbled on this account, that they will not take pride in it. And that being thus humiliated, they may recognize that they cannot stand by their own powers. Hence it is said, we know that in everything, God works for the good of those who love Him.”
Cy:
Amen.
Fr. Hugh:
Not by reason that their sin, but by reason of God’s providence. It’s right there. God works everything for the good of those who love Him. Now, I’ve quoted that many times and I’ve even had a person object to me, “But St. Paul’s not talking about sin there.”
Cy:
Yes, he is.
Fr. Hugh:
And here, St. Thomas says, “Yes, he is talking about even mortal sin.” He’s using that. God uses everything for the good of those who love Him. So if you love God, keep on loving him. And if you offend him because you love him, be sorry. And if you’re sorry because you love him, what does that call in the catechism? If you’re sorry for sin because you love God?
Cy:
Perfect contrition.
Fr. Hugh:
Perfect contrition. You’re forgiven, all right? And most people that are seeking to follow God, as soon as they offended him grievously, they have perfect contrition. They’re sorry because they love him. They’re sorry they did it. And they have to keep on trying.
Cy:
This makes you love St. Paul more, even than his… I mean, his greatness makes you love him, but this makes you love him even more.
Fr. Hugh:
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
Cy:
There’s a way in which the sin also puts us all in the same boat, in a certain way. We’re all dependent children on God.
Fr. Hugh:
Right. Because you could be a miserable sinner like you or me, or you could be St. Paul who had all the qualifications of nature and of grace and even mystical experiences that exceed those of Teresa of Ávila and John of the Cross and the great mystics. We have to say that. They have to exceed them because the apostles are the source.
Cy:
Yes, right.
Fr. Hugh:
If Paul wasn’t a greater mystic than these Carmelite nuns, then we’re all in big trouble. Sorry.
Cy:
They’re the Holy apostles.
Fr. Hugh:
I know we like the Carmelite nuns, but St. Paul is bigger and better. They knew that and we should know that. So when such a one as that says that he was continually troubled by a thorn in the flesh, some sin that he couldn’t overcome, or the temptation which he could overcome and therefore, he glories in that temptation. We have to realize, well, we’re all in the same boat, as you say. Because I could be the most mediocre, feeble Christian with no mystical experience, with a very, very weak grasp on the importance of daily prayer and other things that I’ve been reminded about a million times, but don’t do. And yet still, power is made perfect in weakness. Christ will show His power in you if you just keep it up.
Fr. Hugh:
And that’s why today, although this’ll be played later, but today is a feast of Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of the Rosary of Fatima, put on the calendar by John Paul II for the Universal Church. And so there we have it, this persistent practice of prayer. Pray the rosary every day no matter what. No matter what you do, no matter what you didn’t do, pray it. Insert yourself into the mysteries of Christ because it’s there that your weakness will be given power and strength, and you’ll be able to persevere to the end. It’s very good.
Fr. Hugh:
There was an old Irish priest in the diocese where I grew up, Father [McCurtain 00:22:03], and he would always say, “Pray the rosary every day and you’ll never damn your soul.”
Cy:
He’s right.
Fr. Hugh:
He said it like four or five times during the holiday, “Pray the rosary every day and you’ll never damn your soul.” He followed that rule of six. If you said six times…
Cy:
Then they get it.
Fr. Hugh:
… then they’re going to get it. He always said that continually. And, of course, I never forgot that. He continually said that. Says, “It doesn’t matter, fast, slow, just make sure it’s every day and you don’t give it up.” So there you go. St. Paul is such a one and so are we.
Cy:
Thank you, father.
Fr. Hugh:
You’re welcome.
Cy:
Exhilarating as always. I really appreciate it. Okay.
Fr. Hugh:
Thanks. God bless you.
Cy:
I have to disagree with you when you call you and me miserable centers. My primary problem is I’m a perfectly happy sinner. I shouldn’t be more miserable about it. I need to be-
Fr. Hugh:
I was raised with those Anglican confession prayers where we…
Cy:
Lord make me miserable.
Fr. Hugh:
… we bewail our manifold sins and offenses by which we have from time to time most grievously offended.
Cy:
Oh, you Anglicans. I say you Anglicans, but man, you can pray in English.
Fr. Hugh:
Yeah.
Cy:
I love those Anglican prayers.
Fr. Hugh:
Well, I like praying in Latin so [crosstalk 00:23:09].
Cy:
Show off. All right, we’ll do it then. Pray in Latin.
Fr. Hugh:
[foreign language 00:23:11]. Amen.
Cy:
Amen.
Cy:
Even when we have had those high experiences of some great spiritual grace and then later we fall, we should be comforted that in all of it, Christ is present. And we think that those high spiritual experiences, those are the defining experiences of our relationship with Christ. But it’s the other ones, sometimes, that make us most dependent on him and most grateful to him. So we should be grateful that he allows those as well. We shouldn’t be seeking them out, but we also shouldn’t see those as evidence that our spiritual life is utterly a failure. And somehow, we have cut ourselves off from the love of God.
Cy:
Hey, we love hearing from you. Send us an email. Focus@catholic.com is where you can send your emails. We hope you’ve enjoyed this podcast. And if you’re on YouTube, like and subscribe. It means a lot to us if you’ll like and subscribe. And if you are of the mind to support this work, we think it’s important work. We certainly love doing it. We hope you like listening to it. We could use your financial support at givcatholic.com. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.