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These days one can almost feel that God is asleep. Does he not see the chaos, confusion, and injustice of the modern world? Father Sebastian Walshe, the author of Secrets from Heaven, joins us to consider today’s realities in the light of the gospel stories of Jesus asleep in the storm.
Cy Kellett :
Is God asleep during these tough times? Right now on Catholic Answers Focus. Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding and explaining the Catholic faith. Remember to subscribe to Focus on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever you get your podcasts. That way you’ll be notified when new episodes are released. And please leave us that five-star rating really does help to grow the podcast. Our guest this week, oh man, this guy has a really unique talent for opening up Bible stories and pulling out treasures that on first reading, you didn’t see were there, but then once you see them you can’t miss them. Fr. Sebastian Walshe wrote this book, Secrets from Heaven: Hidden Treasures of Faith in the Parables and Conversations of Jesus.
It’s a pretty new book from Catholic Answers Press and it’s one of my favorites actually, just for that reason. Because Fr. Walshe has an unbelievable ability to take a parable, to take a story, take even a little saying of Jesus and relate it to the Hebrew scriptures, relate it to the traditions of the church. And really open up what the full meaning or at least begin to open up the full meaning because we never exhaust the full meaning of scripture. So not in this book, Secrets from Heaven, is a story that we thought it would be really nice to ask this specially talented priests to answer for us. What is the story about where Jesus is asleep in the boat? It appears in all of the synoptic Gospels Mark, Matthew, and Luke, and there is Jesus sleeping in the back of the boat and there are the apostles having a crisis of faith and then Jesus calms the storm.
It seems particularly related to our times because it’s very easy to imagine that we… While as a matter of fact, I can confess sometimes I have these feelings myself maybe you do too. Where is God in all of this? In this crazy time of social unrest, of medical unrest, of violence and of constant sins against the truth in media so that the world is just deeply confused? This seems like there’s a storm raging all around us. Where is God in all of this? Well we gave that reading to Father and we put that question to him. So, here’s what Fr. Sebastian Walshe had to say about Jesus asleep in the boat and whether or not He’s asleep in our times. So Father before I ask you about, all the questions I’ve got for you, about Jesus and calming the storm, I’ve thought just for the benefit of our listener and also for the benefit of our conversation I’ll just read the version in Mark’s Gospel, okay?
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Great.
Cy Kellett :
So, this comes at the end of chapter 4 of Mark’s Gospel, starting with verse 35, “On that day, as the evening drew on, He said to them, ‘Let us cross to the other side.’ Leaving the crowd, they took Him with them in the boat just as He was. And other boats were with Him. A violent squall came up, and waves were breaking over the boat, so that it was already filling up. Jesus was in the stern, asleep on a cushion. They woke Him and said to Him, ‘Teacher, do you not care that we are perishing?’ He woke up, rebuked the wind and said to the sea, ‘Quiet! Be still.’ The wind ceased, and there was great calm. And then He asked them, ‘Why are you terrified? Do you not yet have faith?’ They were filled with great awe and said to one another, ‘Who is this then whom even the wind and sea obey?'”
So, a dramatic little story there in Mark’s Gospel. As you were pointing out to me before we started talking, before we started recording, it also appears in Luke’s and Mark’s Gospel. So, the first thing I want to ask you with is, are the apostles wrong to be worried? Are they wrong to be upset at this point? Is this a real mark against them?
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Well, Jesus does give them a mild rebuke, it’s not too harsh, but he does give them a mild rebuke. He tells them they don’t have enough faith. And it’s interesting in Luke’s Gospel, you mentioned Luke it’s in as you said all three synoptics Matthew, Mark, and Luke. In Luke’s Gospel, it’s in the context of chapter 8. And if you look at that part of Luke’s Gospel, what you find is that chapter 7 is really Jesus encountering souls who are perfect. Really have perfect faith in Him, for example, the Centurion or St. John the Baptist.
But then you get to the eighth chapter and Jesus is interacting with people whose faith is imperfect and it includes the apostles. So, while they have faith, their faith is still imperfect. And to that extent they really needed to have better faith. It’s interesting Jesus is asleep, and Mark notes, on a cushion. It’s the only place where you find He’s on this pillow, He’s very comfortable. I’ve always thought that if we made up a new series of Mysteries of the Rosary, we could have the Comfortable Mysteries. We get Jesus asleep on the pillow.
Cy Kellett :
Jesus on a cushion.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Or being anointed with precious perfume or something like that. The different Comfortable Mysteries, so Jesus very comfortable. And that’s a reflection of the peace within His heart. His heart is filled with peace in the midst of a storm.
Cy Kellett :
Right.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
The apostles let their hearts become stormy because the things around them are stormy. And I think Jesus is trying to teach us by this very comfortable, peaceful sleep that we’re in the hands of God’s providence. We’re in the hands of the Father and no matter what’s happening around us, we have no reason to fear even if it ends up being death itself. So in some extent, all of us still have to learn this lesson that the apostles had yet to learn and that is, to be at peace in the midst of great trials.
Cy Kellett :
That little detail that He’s on a cushion of among other things here suggests to me, and I want you to correct me if I’m wrong in thinking of Jesus this way, that in a certain sense He arranged this as for their benefit. That none of this is by accident, that it all happens exactly the way He wants it to happen, so that the lesson that He needs to teach them will be taught.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Absolutely. And He does this for us. He arranges these lessons throughout our entire life where He allows things to go wrong and we are tempted to think, Lord, don’t you care? This is one of those episodes where the apostles are wondering, does the Lord care about them? There He is peacefully asleep, He’s on a cushion, He’s just resting. And we find that over and over again in the scriptures. Martha is anxious serving and then Mary is they’re just listening and the Lord doesn’t seem to pay any attention to Martha or care about her. And she says, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister isn’t helping me?”
Cy Kellett :
Yeah.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Or sometimes Jesus tells a parable. There’s a parable Jesus tells about prayer, after He gives the Our Father, in Luke’s Gospel where He says, “Which of you having a friend who comes to him at midnight,” right. “and having nothing to set before him. If you go to your friend and you ask for three loaves and from within he hears this rejection, ‘I’m asleep, my children are in bed with me. I cannot rise or give you anything.'” Again, God portrayed as if he doesn’t care. And over and over again Jesus is trying to assure us, look, God cares about you more than the birds of the air, He cares about you more than the grass of the field and look at the good things He does for them.
This sense that when things are going wrong God doesn’t care, is a great temptation for every believer. And Jesus has to constantly allow that to happen in our lives where something goes wrong, God seems not to care, but then just when it’s essential, He rises up and He fixes everything, He calms that storm. And that’s the lesson we all, again, we have to learn every day in our trust for the Lord. He really does care even when He seems to be asleep, even when He seems not to be noticing or interested in our trials.
Cy Kellett :
It seems in our world today, it really does seem I think even to a faithful person sometimes, like you do have that temptation of so much is going wrong, so much is a miss. There’s so much even just tremendous suffering in families and in young people and the world economy doesn’t seem to work properly, the medical system doesn’t seem… Everything just seems to be showing its incapacity right now and be breaking down, and so it does feel like a storm. And so, there’s that great temptation now to be like, “Is God in this at all?”
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Yes, that’s right. And that’s not only in the world, it’s even in the church, I mean, to be honest it’s in both places. Maybe we’ll talk about that a little bit later when we get to the spiritual sense of this passage. But the truth is that this is an opportunity to have that perfect faith that Jesus wants. And I’ve often told people who ask they say, “How do you keep your peace in the middle of all these things going wrong in the world and the church?”
And I tell them, ‘I’m not going to wake Jesus up, I’m going to let Him sleep. I’m going to let Him sleep in the back of the boat, in the back of the church there and He can get up when He wants.” I’m not going to be one of those people who says, “Lord, don’t you care?” I know He cares and I encourage other people to trust in Him. Really care in the midst of all these trials. Thanks be to God I probably have it pretty easy where I live. I live in a very wonderful Orthodox Catholic community where we’re not… Our statues aren’t being torn down or we’re not being attacked by mobs or anything like that, at least not yet, so [crosstalk 00:10:12]-
Cy Kellett :
I wouldn’t let that get out, maybe just keep quiet on that part. You don’t want to draw any attention to yourselves.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
… Don’t give out our address.
Cy Kellett :
Yeah, right. Okay. So, there’s an odd thing though where Jesus rebukes the wind here. The wind is not a person, why is he rebuking? He woke up rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Quiet! Be still.” Is this just personified language? Or is there something else we’re supposed to get from this?
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Well, I think the first thing that we’re supposed to learn from this is that the fact that the wind and the sea obey Jesus is clear testimony of His divinity. It’s not just that He’s like a prophet, because if you go through the Old Testament over and over and over again it says, “The wind and the sea obey God.” And to give you a few examples, for example from the Psalms, Psalms 65:8, Psalm 89:9, and then maybe the best one is Psalm 107. In fact, I think I want to turn to that Psalm and read you just a little section from Psalm 107 because it’s so close to this episode in the Gospels, right? It says there, and it depends on which version you have of Psalm 107 if you’re in the modern numbering or if you’re in the Vulgate numbering Psalm 106.
But here’s what it says, “There are those who go down into the sea in ships, doing business in the great waters, these have seen the works of the Lord and His wonders in the deep. He said the word, and there arose a storm of wind and the waves were lifted up. They mount up to the heavens and then go into the depths, their soul pined away with evils. They were troubled and reeled like drunken men and all their wisdom was swallowed up. And they cried to the Lord in their affliction and He brought them out of their distresses. And He turned the storm into a breeze and its waves were still. And they rejoiced because they were still, and He brought them to the haven which they wished for.” Ain’t that beautiful?
Cy Kellett :
Yes.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
So it’s very much-
Cy Kellett :
It’s almost a perfect description of this story too. It’s-
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
… It is. That’s right, exactly. So, in keeping with that, interestingly, it actually says that the Lord was the one who was responsible for the storm in the first place in some way, that’s what it says in this Psalm.
Cy Kellett :
Yeah.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
And so here we have these apostles, the storm comes and what do they learn? They learn that even though they’re skilled fishermen, at a certain point their skill is gone. And all of us have to learn that lesson. No matter how good we are at things, you might be the best doctor in the world but at some point our medical art will fail us if there’s things that only God can cure. Like the woman with the hemorrhage, she went to doctors for 12 years and wasn’t cured and only Jesus could fix that. Or you might be the greatest politician in the world but there’s certain things only the Lord can fix. You might be the greatest preacher in the world, there’s only certain things the Lord can fix. And so, what happened with the apostles is they had to come to a point where they realized their skill was gone, they depended completely upon the Lord.
And that’s the point where Jesus wants to bring us. That’s often why He brings these trials in our lives is because imperceptibly hidden to ourselves, we’re still depending on ourselves and we’re not depending and trusting completely in Him. And therefore, He’s the one who has to bring us through this trial where we get to the point where we realize, I can’t, only you can save me Lord, only you can fix this problem. And it has to happen for all of us no matter how good we are, so.
Cy Kellett :
Right. Because no matter how good we are, the reality of the situation is utter dependence.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
That’s right.
Cy Kellett :
Anything that suggests we are not utterly dependent is an illusion.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Absolutely. And the other thing that comes out in all those Psalms that I quoted to you, including the one I just read, it’s the Lord who calms the seas and the wind. And so you have it, it’s Jesus is God. His being, it’s clear that Jesus is the one who’s doing this and therefore His divinity is being manifested. There’s also one other texts that’s very fascinating, it’s in 2 Maccabees 9, Antiochus who claims that he’s a divinity. And it says that the one of the things that he claimed as a divinity was that he could somehow control the wind and the sea. And he’s mocked because he cannot control the wind and the sea as God does. And so, there’s another text that basically says, “No only God can control the wind and the sea.” So that’s in 2 Maccabees 9. So again, the unanimous testimony of the Old Testament is, this is not just a prophet, it’s not just a great man, this is God Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Cy Kellett :
With the Church Fathers and following, reflecting back on the Gospel, what are we to make of all of this? What’s the spiritual sense that we’re supposed to get out of this? And I suppose they’ve done it in different ways, but I know you’ve given us a good deal of that already, but maybe a little more explanation of the spiritual sense of this story.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Absolutely. Yeah. So, let’s start with the wind and the sea. What do the wind and the sea represent in the scriptures? Very often the winds, violent winds, represent the bad angels. And that’s for a good reason because the word for spirit, and the word for wind is often the same word, especially in the Old Testament Hebrew, for example. And so, the violent winds signify bad spirits, right? Signify the devils or the demons. And it’s interesting in context, I believe both in Matthew and Luke, it’s after Jesus cast out a demon or cast out demons that this episode happens. So you see this parallel, the Fathers of the Church see this parallel between Jesus casting out the demons, the demons obey Him and the winds obey Him, huh?
Cy Kellett :
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
So, the spiritual sense there of the winds is these are the demons who are afflicting the just, who are afflicting the church, the boat signifying the church, huh?
Cy Kellett :
Okay.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
The sea on the other hand signifies more the world rather than the demons. And it’s interesting that in the account that you read that the sea, it says, “The sea is filling the boat.”
Cy Kellett :
Yes. Right.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Now what does that signify? It signifies that the church is being filled with worldly people.
Cy Kellett :
Yeah.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Perhaps the first time this happened in the history of the church was right after the peace of Constantine, right? Once it was popular, there was no more persecution about being a Christian and the emperor was very favorable to Christians. Suddenly it was very chic to be a Christian, there was no price to pay. And then together with the very just and holy people, you had a lot of people who just wanted to get ahead, and so now the church was being filled with worldly people. And it wasn’t too long after that, maybe only 50 years that the area in heresy broke out into full force, huh?
Cy Kellett :
Right.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Largely I think because of the worldly people who entered into the church. And that’s been a problem throughout the history of the church has been this constant cycle of the worldly coming in, then the church having to be purified, the worldly coming in again, the church having to be purified. So, that’s what signified there by the sea. The sea is, first of all, the world agitating the church and then even coming into the church. And boy, we are living that right now, I’m telling you, we have worldly people in our church. We have worldly people in our church and it doesn’t just… It’s not just the laity, right?
There are worldly bishop, there are worldly cardinals in the church. Amazing to think that there is such people, I hate to even mention the name of Cardinal McCarrick, for example, or ex-Cardinal McCarrick. But there are just worldly people who have filled the church up to its brim. And so that’s, I think, what’s being signified by that part. Then you have Jesus asleep in the boat. Now, one thing to do is look back to the Old Testament, Jesus Himself connects Himself with Jonah the Prophet. And remember in the story of Jonah the Prophet what happened? Jonah was asleep in the boat during a storm.
Cy Kellett :
Then they threw him out.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
And they threw him out.
Cy Kellett :
Yeah.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
And what did that signify there? That Jonah was the sacrifice that was being offered to God in order to save that ship.
Cy Kellett :
Oh.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
That interesting?
Cy Kellett :
Yes.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
And then after Jonah was thrown out as a sacrifice, then the calm came, the calm returned. And then Jonah, of course, was swallowed by the big fish, the whale, whatever you want to call it, and that signified Jesus’s three days in the tomb, huh?
Cy Kellett :
Yeah.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
And then He was resurrected, so to speak, and then gave testimony to the city of Nineveh. So again, we see the Passion of the Lord being signified by the storm, the winds. And Jesus asleep in the boat can signify that Jesus is asleep on the cross, He’s handed over to the worldly men, cast into the sea and He’s asleep. He dies His death on the cross and then it says, if you read that passage carefully from Mark again, it says, “Jesus rose up and rebuked the wind and the sea.” That signifies His resurrection.
Cy Kellett :
Oh. Right.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
So Jesus rises again, He makes his power known, right? And what happened in Jesus’s Passion is once again recapitulated over and over again in human history. At times when it looks like the church is going to sink, at times when it looks like the gates of hell will prevail against the church, Jesus raises up great men after His likeness, other Christs who intervene and through the power of Christ’s resurrection saves the church once again. And He will do that definitively on the final day when it seems that all is lost. And when the world has completely inundated the church and when the demons seemed to have complete control when Jesus comes again, He will rise up and He will rescue His church. So, all of this is a foreshadowing, a preparation for Jesus’s Second Coming, His final coming, when He will once and for all say to the wind and the sea, “Quiet! Be still.” And all will be peaceful for those who are among His elect in the Kingdom of our God in heaven.
Cy Kellett :
I have to say Father, when I hear that you connect that to Jonah in that way, and it’s just so obvious that the… And even the rising up and rebuking the wind, it’s impossible to see the scripture as anything other than inspired. Because there’s no way that human authors again and again could make these parallels that are so perfect and illustrative. They truly illustrate the revelation that God is making here. They’re not just clever, they really are revelation.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Absolutely. Yeah. In the book that I wrote, Secrets from Heaven, that’s one of the things I try to, over and over again, try and manifest. This can’t possibly be only a human book.
Cy Kellett :
No.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
The connections that are found in there are so profound, no single mind could figure it all out unless it were the mind of God. And so, the scriptures give within themselves internal testimony of their divine inspiration.
Cy Kellett :
But here’s the problem with believing this scripture, I’m going to scream and throw this problem out at you.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Sure.
Cy Kellett :
In the face of a world that is in utter turmoil filled with injustice, and a church that is, as you said, swamped by the worldly, even by worldly people, then what this councils is for me to be calm and not fight and not… Do you see what I’m saying?
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett :
Isn’t that, I don’t know. I guess many people will say, “No, don’t. You get up and fight.” This is the time to, I don’t know, stand up to these worldly people and-
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Yes.
Cy Kellett :
… Do…
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Well, let me say something about that. And that’s a fair objection and I think it originates from misconception.
Cy Kellett :
Okay.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
When Jesus Himself, when He rebukes that wind and those waves, the wind and the sea become completely peaceful. And it’s an image, it’s an effect of the peace within the very heart of Jesus Himself. But Jesus was rebuking the wind and the seas, He was not passive.
Cy Kellett :
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
He rebuked them and he rebuked them even though He had peace in His soul. And we, as other Christs, are called to do the same thing. It’s perfectly possible for us to have peace in our hearts, knowing the Lord Jesus is in charge, knowing that the Father in his providence is caring for us and we’re in his hand. And we can not be taken from the hand of the Father and that nothing will separate us from the love of Christ. We can have that calm and peace in our hearts and our souls and yet stand up and rebuke the worldly and stand up and rebuke the demons and fight. But not fight by our own power, fight simply by the power of Christ within us.
And so, it’s not at all incompatible for Christians to carry out their duty, to speak the truth in love, as long as they do it without anxiety in their hearts. What this scripture passage is telling us is not to try and fight on our own power or to fix the problem with our own power, and don’t get anxious those things are forbidden by the Lord. But it doesn’t say we should not fight it, doesn’t say that we should not rebuke those who are doing evil.
Cy Kellett :
Father, thank you so much. Again, well I just highly recommend the book, Secrets from Heaven, Father’s book for Catholic Answers Press. And Fr. Sebastian Walshe, it’s always such a delight. Thank you so much for doing it with us again.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Oh, my pleasure. It’s so good to see Cy. And can’t wait till everything’s completely back to normal, maybe I’ll come visit you-
Cy Kellett :
Yeah. We can see each other in person.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
… And soon we’ll all be together again, so God willing soon.
Cy Kellett :
Praise God, yes. Thank you so much. And many prayers for you and all your confreres there at St. Michael’s Abbey in Orange County. Oops! I gave out the address. Sorry. I was supposed to keep secret.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
It’s okay, don’t worry.
Cy Kellett :
I apologize.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Maybe people will come and pray.
Cy Kellett :
Praise God. Amen. At the new church or building too. Thank you, Father.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Of course.
Cy Kellett :
Thank you very much.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Can I give a blessing to everyone here?
Cy Kellett :
Oh, please do Father. Yes.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
[foreign language 00:24:52]. Amen.
Cy Kellett :
Amen. Thank you, Father.
Fr. Sebastian Walshe:
Oh, you’re welcome.
Cy Kellett :
Secrets from Heaven is Fr. Sebastian Walshe’s new book from Catholic Answers Press and it really is a treasure. It’s subtitled, Hidden Treasures of Faith in the Parables and Conversations of Jesus. And as you can see that he’s a real master at digging up the hidden treasures that are there in the very words of scripture. I find it comforting to know that Jesus arranges these situations sometimes. There’s no question that He knew that the storm was coming up in a certain sense, as Father said, “God is the cause of the storm that came up.” But He wants to draw us, represented here by the apostles, into a deeper relationship of trust with Him.
It’s okay that He seems to be asleep in the boat. Even if He is asleep in the boat, He’s there. He knows what’s going on and He has the situation under control. Very comforting in these times and very helpful when we have to think about how do we respond to these times? If we’re responding out of a sense of panic, out of a sense of upset we’re not in communion with Christ who can sleep peacefully through these times. Because He knows that He’s in charge, He knows that He’s in command, we just have to know that He’s in command. It doesn’t mean we won’t fight for what’s right, it doesn’t mean we won’t stand up for love and justice in a world of cruelty and untruth. But it does mean that we will have a serenity within us as we do that. And it’s that serenity within us, that faith within us in Jesus that makes our work effective, otherwise it has no lasting effect.
Hey, if you like this episode, if you don’t like this episode, if you want to contact us, we’re available via email just send it to focus@catholic.com. We want to hear from you and we love it when people suggest new episodes too. Subscribe to Focus as I said at the beginning, so you’ll be notified when new episodes are available. Also, if you’re watching on YouTube, come on, you know Zach needs you to like and subscribe. It’s very important. Zach puts these on YouTube, we want to keep his job, we don’t want Zach to lose his job. So, like and subscribe when you watch this on YouTube. And if you’d like to support us financially, we could really use your support, takes a lot of people to make this happen, go to givecatholic.com and give your financial support there. Of course, your prayerful support is always welcome. Always welcome and needed, but we also need that financial support at givecatholic.com. I’m Cy Kellett your host, this is Catholic Answers Focus. Thanks so much for joining us, we’ll see you next time right here, God willing, on Catholic Answers Focus.