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Our friend from down under, Monica Doumit, the Director of Public Affairs and Engagement for the Archdiocese of Sydney, shares another legal innovation from Australia, laws that are meant to protect gay people by making it illegal to teach chastity as Catholics understand it. We ask her what the laws require, and what the Catholic Church actually teaches about human sexuality.
Cy Kellett:
Is chastity a hate crime? Monica Doumit is next. Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. And we ask a very serious question this episode, is it a hate crime to teach the Christian understanding of chastity? As the sexual revolution continues, more and more secular authorities and social media companies are trying to censor those who would teach or promote a Christian understanding of chastity.
The way we’ve understood sexual morality for 2,000 years is bit by bit being looked at as not just suspect, but hateful. We don’t like to pick on Australia, we’re not trying to pick on Australia, we just did a recent episode on Australia and the confessional, but we invited the guests from that episode back, our friend, Monica Doumit, from the Archdiocese of Sydney, Australia to come and talk to us about a current movement in Australia to outlaw what seems to be perfectly normal Christian teaching and Christian practice when it comes to chastity. Here’s Monica Doumit. Monica Doumit, radical feminist, thanks for being with us.
Monica Doumit:
My pleasure, great to be here.
Cy Kellett:
Do you know why I called you a radical feminist?
Monica Doumit:
I absolutely know why you called me a radical feminist.
Cy Kellett:
Somebody here in America picking on you, trying to sell books by calling you a radical feminist, but we appreciate so much of what you do, standing up for life, especially in extreme circumstances, standing against things like euthanasia, standing up for the faith and freedom of religion. And now we’re going to ask you about more… We should almost call these episodes wild and crazy Australia, so many interesting things.
Monica Doumit:
I know you thought we just had nasty spiders, and snakes, and things like that but our laws are quite venomous as well.
Cy Kellett:
So tell us about the conversion therapy laws that are being passed there. Just to give people who didn’t hear it last time, we talked about confession and some of the laws being passed around Australia at the state or provincial level. Well, how do you say it?
Monica Doumit:
The state.
Cy Kellett:
At the state level are requiring priests to report with the hearing confession in certain circumstances. So we would say that that’s anti-Catholic legislation, that directly contradicts our ability to practice faith as it has been given to us by Jesus and the apostles. Conversion therapy is a little bit different, but tell us what’s going on as far as conversion therapy goes.
Monica Doumit:
Okay, so there’s been this push to ban what they call conversion therapy practices here in Australia, and a couple of the smaller jurisdictions, the Australian Capital Territory, which is where our national capital is, passed a law to ban conversion practices, so did Queensland, but Queensland limited it to just health professionals. Sorry, conversion practices, I guess when they described are things like trying to change somebody’s sexual orientation or gender identity, and you get these images of things that used to happen decades ago, like electroshock therapy, or aversion therapy, or things like that, things that we wouldn’t agree with because it doesn’t accord with the dignity of the human person and with the goal of actually changing somebody’s sexual orientation.
Cy Kellett:
And I have to say here in the United States it’s more recently than decades ago. Just some nasty things have been done to kids who identify as having same-sex attraction or teenagers who… And adults as well. But so certainly I’m glad you point that out, because I didn’t know how it was in Australia, but certainly here in the United States there is a bad history of mistreating people to get them to convert their sexual identity or their gender identity. So go ahead. So what’s this about?
Monica Doumit:
But what’s happening now in Australia is that it’s going further, much further than banning those terrible practices, are to banning anything that would encourage a person, not only to change their sexual orientation or gender identity, but also what they call suppress it. So essentially practice chastity. So if you are telling a person with same-sex attraction that they should practice chastity or giving them assistance to do that, then that’s becoming prohibited. A few weeks ago, the state of Victoria, which is probably the most progressive state in Australia, and I always say that I think the second coming [inaudible 00:04:51] Victoria in Australia.
Cy Kellett:
That’s where he’s got to clean up first, is that what you’re saying?
Monica Doumit:
It’s where he’s coming, that’s where he’s coming back. But so they passed this extraordinarily broad piece of legislation that specifically prohibits prayer-based practices in terms of conversion. So outlawed is Courage.
Cy Kellett:
Wow.
Monica Doumit:
So Courage [crosstalk 00:05:22].
Cy Kellett:
So talking about Courage, because we will have many people who will listen, who will not know the Catholic position and we’ll get to that as we go, because we want to explain the Catholic position and why we believe that that position should be respected by our fellow citizens and certainly by legislatures, but explain to people what Courage is.
Monica Doumit:
So Courage is a ministry of the Catholic church that assists people who are experiencing same-sex attraction to live in accordance with their faith. And so under these circumstances, it would be providing them with the supports necessary for them to live a chaste life. It’s voluntary, it’s not like Courage goes out and [inaudible 00:06:00] people in and drags them in.
So if somebody who is Catholic, who desires to live in accordance with the Catholic faith, not withstanding their sexual attractions, that they go and seek out Courage and they’re provided with a spiritual direction, and prayer support, and all of those types of things, a community around them that will assist them in their journey. And so what this law is saying is that even if you’re an adult, a fully consenting adult who desires this type of assistance, now you’re prohibited from seeking it because those who would purport to offer it to you could find themselves in prison for up to 10 years.
Cy Kellett:
Wow. Now, I have to say it’s a little bit strange because for us Catholics, I think about someone here in the United States like Jason Evert, I don’t know if you know about his chastity project, and you can go to chastity.com to find out about it. Well, he has all kinds of programs that would be for men, for example, women as well, but say you have young men who have a problem with pornography, the idea which is in many ways consistent with their nature, it’s actually an abuse of their nature to be interested in sex and women and all of that, but to work on chastity. So for us as Catholics, that’s no different for a person who has same-sex attraction. We’re not doing something different, we’re all trying to work on chastity, but the state of Victoria would see these as two different activities.
Monica Doumit:
No, actually it wouldn’t. So the law doesn’t make a distinction between same-sex attraction and heterosexuality. So equally prohibited would be somebody seeking to live a chaste life if they are attracted to somebody of the opposite sex. So for example, say, Cy you were to go to your priest and say, “Look, I’m really tempted to cheat on my wife, can you help me?”
Cy Kellett:
This is a wild hypothetical, by the way, a wild hypothetical.
Monica Doumit:
Sorry, sorry.
Cy Kellett:
Just in case my wife is listening, wild… But okay, so say that happen.
Monica Doumit:
Same thing, because that would be suppressing your sexual desires.
Cy Kellett:
Wow, wow, this is monstrous.
Monica Doumit:
It is absolutely monstrous. Sorry.
Cy Kellett:
It sounds like monstrance, that’s the thing.
Monica Doumit:
So absolutely crazy. So the definition includes emotional attraction, sexual attraction, intimate relations with a person of the same gender, a different gender, anything like that. So anything that tries to, what they call suppress, which is what we would call chastity, is off limits. If you are teaching celibacy in the seminary or assisting seminarians, informing them to prepare for celibacy, technically illegal now.
Cy Kellett:
So what is at the base of this? I guess with the confession thing, it seems like at the root of it, when we talked about it, is this sense that these Catholics are involved in child abuse. There’s been this well-documented history of sexual abuse. Now, to repeat, because I know my Catholic brothers and sisters will want me to, it’s no worse in the Catholic church than anywhere else. As a matter of fact, all the statistical indicators, it’s better in a Catholic school than say in a public school, but nonetheless, we have that reputation. And so the confession thing almost seems to be like an overreaction to that. It seems like what you’re saying is, well, we had these bad conversion therapies, and there are bad conversion therapies, and this might be an overreaction to that. But if you’re just attacking chastity, it doesn’t seem like it’s just an overreaction, it seems like there’s something else at the root of this.
Monica Doumit:
I think that’s right, and I think what it is, is it’s really trying just to suppress church teaching on sexual morality, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Monica Doumit:
Because achieving same-sex marriage wasn’t enough, now what’s the next step? So we’ve got same-sex marriage, but now we’re going to progressively make it illegal for you to say that there’s another way to point people towards another way than this liberal sexual environment. It’s actually really disturbing. Even more controversially, if you had somebody who went to a psychologist and said, “Look, I’m attracted to children,” technically under the law, the psychologist wouldn’t be able to provide them with any type of assistance to overcome that because the law makes no distinction. It’s not even lawful sexual activity, it’s any sexual activity, any sexual attraction.
Cy Kellett:
You just can’t help people to try to strive to live chaste or to learn a virtuous life. I suppose to call it a virtuous life, might be an offense to people or maybe an offense against the law.
Monica Doumit:
Exactly right. And I think underpinning that back to your idea of what are they getting at, is that would allow the suggestion that there is some type of sexual attraction, sexual activity that’s off limits. And in a progressive society, we’re not allowed to say that because you get to create yourself and create your own sexual identity.
Cy Kellett:
Wow.
Monica Doumit:
So that’s the sexual orientation side, but then there’s the gender identity side as well. So it’s not only about sexual orientation, but gender identity and where this is most dangerous is for parents of children who are experiencing gender dysphoria. Because if you’re a parent of a young child, say a six-year-old who comes home and says, “I’m a boy, but I’m really a girl.” You can’t go and get them any type of assistance because the only assistance that psychologists, psychiatrists, pediatricians, anyone is allowed to provide is affirmation.
Cy Kellett:
I have to say that’s something we’re hearing is happening more and more here in the US too, that a parent will go for help sometimes with an unrelated mental health issue, and the psychiatrists and therapists will say, “No, the child’s name is Bob now and not Cindy anymore.” And you have to go along with this. It’s horrifying to think of it [inaudible 00:12:32] in law. So just to be clear, the people who have made these laws, they don’t think of themselves as tyrants, who are telling other people what they can teach their children, they see this as liberating.
Monica Doumit:
Absolutely in protecting vulnerable groups. One of the most alarming things is that the law went through basically unopposed. So to think of a recent US example, it would be like the Equality Act passing without any opposition from the Republicans, that’s the gravity of this. So apart from a few soul voices, it went through unopposed.
Cy Kellett:
And why do you think that is? Are people just afraid to get that label on Twitter of you’re anti-gay or you’re somehow heteronormative or whatever the various labels, is it just fear of that, or has this been so successful, this kind of education, educating people away from what we’ve always known about human sexuality, that people just start going along with it, they actually believe it?
Monica Doumit:
It’s hard to say. And I don’t know which of those options would actually make me feel more comfortable. Whether it’s fear, whether it’s a widespread belief, I don’t know, but it’s crazy.
Cy Kellett:
All right, so at this point now, because of what we’re talking about, many people will, non-Catholics listening and they’re mad at you and me if they disagree with us. And that’s fair enough. We get mad at one another, but we do need to give the Catholic explanation of where we come down on this. So maybe as a person who works for the Archdiocese of Sydney as a well-educated Catholic yourself, how would you articulate what the Catholic view of say a young person comes to mom and dad and says, “I’m a boy attracted to other boys,” or “I’m a girl attracted to other girls,” what would be the Catholic view of what that means and how we would deal with it?
Monica Doumit:
Okay, well, so I guess that we start with the idea of that every person is worthy of love. [inaudible 00:14:50] made by love for love. And so that’s true of whatever your attractions absolutely. And so if a young child came to their parents, that is what you would expect them to affirm first. But then we would also say that God created our sexuality for a particular purpose, and that is as an expression of love within marriage ordered towards the procreation of children. And so whether you’re same-sex attracted, whether you’re opposite sex attracted, that rules the same for everybody, that sexual activity belongs inside marriage ordered towards the procreation of children. And so that’s why we say that artificial contraception is wrong, that’s why we say same-sex sexual activity is wrong. And it’s not pointing at these things saying that these are especially bad, it’s pointing at them and saying, well, they’re not in accordance with why sex was created and the proper ordering of it.
Cy Kellett:
Now, I’m thinking of many people here that we have a ministry within the Catholic church, a very popular ministry called Courage, which is for people who are attracted to members of the same sex, that what they might be hearing there at Courage is you need to stop doing that in order to be welcome in church. You need to change that attraction that you have. You got to somehow overcome that and get this straightened out before you are acceptable to God and to the church.
Monica Doumit:
I think that that’s overstating it. Conversion isn’t a dirty word, right? We’re in lent at the moment [crosstalk 00:16:36].
Cy Kellett:
We’re supposed to be converting.
Monica Doumit:
All of us are called to conversion. And I’m called to conversion in all of the ways that I fall in all of the disordered attractions in my life. And so I think that sometimes we risk putting this scene as setting it apart as a special or as a high order scene or something like that. But all of us have things from which we need to be converted, and if they waited till we were all perfect to let us inside the walls of a church, then I think they would be empty on Sundays. But there is a home for everybody in the church, and the only place you’re going to be able to find the graces to live chastely, to live in accordance with your call to holiness, again, whatever your attractions, is within the church, it should be the safest place for people with same-sex attraction.
Cy Kellett:
I’m so glad you said that, because I do think also it’s good for us Catholics to always remind ourselves that this is a place of welcome and no person should ever feel like the welcome is like a 50% welcome for you because you have same-sex attraction or something like that, that’s not at all. But I want you to say it explicitly because I really want to be clear with people that would you agree then with the statement that there are people for whom this will be a lifelong state of mind, and that that says nothing about the holiness of that person or the worthiness of that person?
Monica Doumit:
Absolutely. And maybe that’s the way that God’s going to make you a saint, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Monica Doumit:
And I’m glad that you used the word welcome because often again, we hear criticism. Well, if you say that people are welcomed, then that means you’re welcoming their sin as well, and you’re welcoming the times that they fall, but that’s not the case. Again, everyone’s welcome. Yes, we’re called to holiness, we’re called to conversion, we’re called to repentance, and all of those things, but you’re not called to that before you’re welcomed, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right, right. Like you said, every church would be empty, including on the alter, there’d be nobody up there because none of us is over the things that affect our relationship with God and with other human beings. Because I don’t say God has given us because he doesn’t give us original sin. God doesn’t give us these failings, but he does create us in a state of journeying, and we all have to make that journey. And where you start is different from where I start, what you have to deal with on the journey is different than what I have to deal with on the journey, but everybody’s welcome.
Monica Doumit:
Absolutely. And look, just to be clear, that doesn’t mean that we all get to go and receive communion every time we go to mass, because all of us have to examine our consciences before we do that absolutely. But if I’m in a state of sin, better that I’m inside church and in prayer, than outside feeling as if I somehow need to be good and be good on my own without the assistance of the church, because that’s never going to work, right?
Cy Kellett:
Right. I don’t know how it is there in Australia, but in the United States, the people who are native to the United States, we act like everybody goes to communion. But it’s funny because Mexicans in the United States, because right here in San Diego, we’re on the border with Mexico, they don’t. They often refrain from going to communion. They have a much better developed conscience. We’re very Protestantized Catholics. It’s like an altar call. Well, it’s not an altar call, it’s Eucharist and you’re supposed to withhold if you are in a state of sin. And that goes for all of us, or also if you didn’t fast, according to the rules of fasting, wherever you are, or all that.
So let me ask you this about the transgender thing though, because that’s a slightly different thing. So you have the child now that doesn’t say “I’m attracted to the opposite sex.” So the child says, “I am the opposite sex, that’s my nature,” or something like that. What we see here in America, and I’m sure that you see the same, and I think this is the same all around the world, is that the more these things have been talked about and celebrated, people like Caitlyn Jenner, for example, celebrated, the more we see early adolescents and adolescents, and even preadolescents getting on the bandwagon. So there’s certainly a contagion that goes with this. So it seems like we have a society there, like let’s take in Victoria. It would seem like we have a society where we’re inflaming this idea in children. And one exciting possibility of your life is that you got the wrong body, and then we’re also saying in the same breath, your parents can’t tell you otherwise.
Monica Doumit:
Absolutely. And we see the contingent effect here. I think something like 2000% or something in the last 10 years of kids presenting with gender dysphoria. And I think what we find in the studies is that for some, this will be persistent, this will be lifelong, but overwhelmingly once the children go through puberty, everything resets and they’re more comfortable in their own bodies. But what happens is the first step that they do, or one of the first steps is will put you on puberty blockers. And so will prevent you from going through puberty so that you’re not distressed by developing the physical nature of your biological sex. But in doing that, you’re actually blocking them from going through the natural process that will assist them in accepting their identity.
From a Catholic perspective also, we would say that the human person is a unity of body and soul, and that those two things aren’t in conflict, that you can’t have a soul that’s somehow different from your body because the human person is body and soul united. So that’s where we would understand it from a Catholic perspective. But even if you leave the faith out of it, just talking about what’s best for these kids, and it’s not good for them to be pumping them through with various stages of hormones.
In their developing years, we don’t let kids enter into contracts, we don’t let them vote, but all of a sudden we think that without the intervention of their parents or now even doctors, that they should be allowed to make these decisions. So that one’s particularly egregious, I think, and it also undermines the authority of parents, which I think is another really difficult one. I don’t know if I mentioned this to you off air or on air, but this is also now included in the definition of family violence.
Cy Kellett:
You didn’t say it on air. Say something about that, please.
Monica Doumit:
So these laws also say that these types of conversion or suppression practices are now also included in the definition of family violence. And so you have the added risk as a parent of perhaps having child services come in and intervene with your raising of children because of your views on sexual orientation or gender identity. So again, just incredibly dangerous. The other dangerous thing-
Cy Kellett:
I just want to make it clear. So the child goes to school and says to the school counselor or school psychologist, “I told my parents about this, that I’m a boy and not a girl,” or “a girl and not a boy and they said, “Well, we love you and we’re going to care for you.” I’m hoping these are good parents that would say something like that. “But it’s not true, you are actually a boy, not a girl,” or “a girl, not a boy. And in time you’re going to come to see that, and we’re going to help you come to see that.” Now the psychologist reports that to the civil authorities, they can come to the house and take the kid away?
Monica Doumit:
Absolutely, yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Wow.
Monica Doumit:
Well, technically under the law, it’s extraordinary. Obviously the civil authorities have to use their discretion and go and actually check out that situation.
Cy Kellett:
We don’t want them to have that discretion.
Monica Doumit:
Absolutely. And look, these are the same civil authorities that charged Cardinal Pell and ended up with him in jail. But it’s just extraordinary. And actually the other thing is that they don’t even need to wait for a complaint. So we have the Human Rights Commission or whatever they’re called down there, who can actually have their own volition, commence investigations without a complainant. And this is more for institutions, but the suggestion is that they can just go and start investigating an institution where they think that these types of conversion practices or suppression practices could be going on. And I don’t want to be cynical about it, but I can just imagine who their first target is going to be.
Cy Kellett:
Well, it does seem like there’s a full court press here against the things that, I want to say Catholics have always believed, but actually it’s what human beings have always believed. I mean, if you ask a scientist, we’re and every mammal is a sexually dimorphic species, every mammal species is. If you ask a philosopher, we’re men and women. If you ask a Jew or a Christian, male and female, he created them, that’s basic. People have always known this, and it seems all of a sudden this basic fact of the human reality is an unacceptable fact, and that means the one institution that is well-organized to teach and to proclaim is the Catholic church, and you’re going to be the first ones in line for getting corrected on this.
Monica Doumit:
I would think so. So maybe everyone should pray for Archbishop Peter Comensoli down there because he’s going to have a mighty job ahead of him.
Cy Kellett:
Go ahead, Monica.
Monica Doumit:
Just the interesting thing when you’re talking about, it’s something that scientists, philosophers, everybody understood is this forms so much a part of our identity. And so there’s an irony in this, choose your own identity, create it for yourself. Actually, I think people are going to be more confused about who they are than ever. And so in this attempt to let people define their own identity, you’re actually taking it away from them, which is terribly sad.
Cy Kellett:
If I may, just to Australia specific questions, the first, in the Catholic community itself, those who are going to mass and putting their Australian dollars in the collection basket. And that’s only because that’s the best dollars they have, they don’t have American dollars there. So they’re doing the best… I’m not insulting them by saying that, but how are they on this? Would you say there’s confusion within the Catholic ranks, or is there a general clarity among your fellow parishioners that this is not acceptable, what’s happening?
Monica Doumit:
I think they’re pretty clear that this is unacceptable for the most part. You’ve obviously got the lobby groups who think that the church’s teaching on some of these things need to change, but I think even they see that these laws go too far. The problem is, and you guys would be experiencing this as well, is that for much of the time when the debate in the public inquiry and all that was going on, the churches were closed.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, that’s a great point.
Monica Doumit:
And so our ability to be communicating this message to the faithful was prejudiced. And so I would imagine that there are many out there who still don’t even know and don’t understand the full implications of what’s going on, but it took extraordinary measures like religious leaders, including the archbishop, taking out full page advertisements in mainstream newspapers, just to say this is really bad. And we call the government to consult with religious leaders, that’s the other thing. They just completely excluded the churches. I think Archbishop Comensoli said that he was met with a wall of silence-
Cy Kellett:
Wow.
Monica Doumit:
… even in trying to engage with government on this. So they were forced to do things like go to social media and pay for advertisements in newspapers, because that was the only way we could get the message out.
Cy Kellett:
Well, so my other question for Australia, here in the US if this were to happen in states, it would eventually end up before our supreme court. And it just so happens that the supreme court is constituted so that there are some champions of religious freedom there. I don’t know how the cases would be decided, but at least you would get a hearing. Are there judicial remedies in Australia or no?
Monica Doumit:
Well, we don’t have a bill of rights. And so the actual freedom of religion-
Cy Kellett:
I’ll send you a copy of ours, if you need one.
Monica Doumit:
I don’t know how well it’s gone for you [inaudible 00:30:38].
Cy Kellett:
That’s a very good point, Monica. All right, so go ahead with it.
Monica Doumit:
And actually, let’s not talk about Canada either because people keep pointing, “Well, Canada has a bill of rights, Australia should have one.” We’re right, thanks. Look, the freedom of religion in our constitution is only really limited. The protection is something along the lines of, you’re not to make a law that prohibits the free exercise of religion, but the way that’s been interpreted by our high court, which is the equivalent of your supreme court, is that it’s only if the law has the specific intention of prohibiting freedom of religion, whether it does in practice is irrelevant.
So it’s only if the law is passed with the specific intention of prohibiting the freedom of religion. I would say this law comes close, but I could also see there’s enough wiggle room in that test for maybe the high court to say, “Well, no, the specific intention is to protect people from harmful conversion practices.” If that means that freedom of religion in some respects is stifled, then so be it. But that’s not the intention of the law. So you would have to prove that the actual intention of this law is only to prohibit freedom of religion. And it might be that once we see how it starts operating, and some of these civil authority initiated investigations bears that out, and we may have a challenge to it, but I’m not competent.
Cy Kellett:
I’m sorry to hear it. I have a feeling we’re going to be talking with you more on these Focus episodes about Australia, it’s a very interesting country you live in. But I also would like to talk with you. You are one of… We really found this when we got to listen to you in person, one of the world’s great defenders of the right to life. Just because you’re Australian, we don’t always have to pick on Australia. But let us know. Another thing about Australia, I just feel like sometimes here in the United States, we look at a place like the Netherlands with their euthanasia laws and we think, “Well, they’re just the cutting edge, we’ll all get there eventually.” And so in Australia with these laws, they’re harbinger’s, we’re all going to get there eventually, or at least they’re going to try to get us all there. So it is helpful to have your perspective. Thanks very much, but we just love talking with you, Monica Doumit. I hope we get to do it again soon.
Monica Doumit:
Thanks so much. Lovely to be here again.
Cy Kellett:
I’d really want to avoid the possibility of giving the impression that we are involved in the old poor me’s. “Oh, poor me, they won’t let me talk about chastity,” or “Oh, poor me.” The usual Catholic understanding of how to live a chaste life, whether a person is a homosexual person, or a heterosexual person, or however else one might define oneself. It’s not a case of, “Oh, poor me,” it’s a case of being alert and aware, reading the signs of the times and the signs of the times suggest that hard times are coming for those who don’t go along with every single aspect of the sexual revolution, or maybe even want to mitigate some of the damages of the sexual revolution.
There are damages of the sexual revolution, a society that gives up on chastity, a society that gives up on faithfulness is a society that becomes increasingly dangerous as we’ve already seen to children and becomes increasingly hard within the context of that society to help one another, even when that help is on private things like, “I’m struggling with this, can you help me to stay faithful to Jesus?” Rather than to do what the world says to do.
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