Father Hugh Barbour explains the two judgments. What happens at our particular judgment? What happens at the general judgment? And what does all of this have to do with ghosts who might need some help?
Cy:
What happens when God judges you? Father Hugh Barber is next.
Cy:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding and defending the Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. And usually I wait until the end of these podcasts to ask for your financial support, but it’s come to my attention that some of you are not listening all the way to the end. So this time I’m going to ask at the beginning, if you could support us, help us to continue to have these conversations, and to keep them available for the whole world. You can go to givecatholic.com, givecatholic.com. We do need your support, and we are very, very grateful for it.
Cy:
The church has a complete month for the dead, November is our month for the dead in the Catholic Church. It doesn’t seem so important to us now in many ways, maybe some of us don’t even pay attention to it, but it will be important shortly, because we will all be among the dead. And that’s what our conversation is about today with Father Hugh Barber. It includes a spooky, scary ghost story as a bonus feature, so enjoy the spooky, scary ghost story. And includes some discussion about what’s going to happen to us. We’re going to face judgment, not once, but twice after we die. And you might think what’s the problem here? Why two? Is there something that we’re not going to cover in the first one? Is maybe the first one graded on the curve? Why are we having a second judgment? We’ll get into all that right now, with Father Hugh Barber.
Cy:
Let me just start with this. Why two judgments? What is that all about?
Fr. Hugh:
Well, in Catholic tradition, there are two points at which God announces a definitive judgment. There’s one called the particular judgment, which has to do with the judgment of individual souls at the time of their death. And that’s a personal event, an encounter between the soul, and Christ the savior. Emphasis on savior, because he says that he came to save the world, not to judge it. And so, when he judges, it’s in view of his doing all that he could to save us. And that’s a very good position to be in before a judge. If the judge is before you, or before, you were before his bench, you knew that he had done everything in his power to keep you from your crimes, and to protect you from them and to find other things for you to do, and all of that, you would have more confidence in his judgment as a judge. Instead of thinking, he’s going to be so annoyed that I didn’t do what he wanted, that now I’m really in for it.
Fr. Hugh:
But rather it would be that this is the same one who was always your savior, and wanted you to be saved. But it is true, he’s first our savior, then our judge. So at the end of our lives, at the time of our death, and this can be in so many different ways, we really don’t know the mechanics, so to speak, of the particular judgment. Some people will say that it’s an instantaneous event that occurs in the presence of Christ, other people say that actually it’s protracted, and has to do with, especially in the Eastern tradition, with a kind of minute examination relating to the places and the things that one was involved, and the persons that one was involved in sin.
Fr. Hugh:
But in point of fact, either those things could be true, because God as we see, when we look around us and see other believers, God as we see, deals with individuals differently, individually. So, it could be that one person has a very rapid review, and another one has something more protracted, it just depends.
Cy:
I’d prefer the more protracted, I feel like.
Fr. Hugh:
Well, yes and no. If you read the stories, you kind of go, oh, no. But the fact is, is that it’s a loving encounter. The best description I’ve ever seen is Pope Benedict XVI, description of the encounter of the soul with Christ, in his encyclical Spe salvi, encyclical on hope. Because of course that’s where the judgment would belong, and he has a beautiful description of Christ’s loving gaze, but also painful gaze on the soul, to purify it. Now, purification could mean something that feels like it takes a long time, or could feel like something that happens instantly, but rivetingly, we just don’t know. Or we know that it’s both, and it depends on the soul because we’re all different.
Fr. Hugh:
There’s a tendency in Catholic imagination, to sort of flattened things out when someone has died, and so it’s all like everyone lines up and gets their identical experience. But if you look at the experience of Catholic life among believers, you can go, my goodness, it had its ups and its downs, and all arounds, and there’s a different story for everyone. And because there’s a different story for everyone, there’s also a different perhaps modality of judgment. Now, and in this regard, St. Thomas gives us a little hint when he talks about purgatory. He says, well, all the souls go to purgatory, to that equivalent to the place, let’s put it that way. An equivalent of a place, where the souls in purgatory wait for the gift of the vision of God. Or do they suffer their purgatory somewhere else? Like for example, where they lived, or in the places where they sinned?
Cy:
Oh, I see, I see.
Fr. Hugh:
And of course, St. Thomas says, well, it depends. That God may… Ordinarily, they all go to the same place, place understood in a particular theological sense. So I don’t have any objections, “It’s not a place,” well, there’s something there, because there’s a soul that will return to its body, and will exist in a local mode for all eternity at the resurrection. And so, there’s something-
Cy:
The location is something we do.
Fr. Hugh:
Something that our soul does, our soul is located in its natural risen state or living state. But it could be that for the instruction of the living, or for the purification of their own particular soul, because this is a real thing. This is not some kind of, just a vindictive show. It’s something for the soul that endures it, therefore it’s different. It’s something for that one. It shows the work of the good physician or the good shepherd, taking care of us.
Fr. Hugh:
And so he says, some people do suffer in relation to the places where they sinned. And that explains in the minds of some, why people talk about haunting, or ghosts, we’re in this month of November, haunting and ghosts and so on. And that it’s the souls of the faithful departed, asking for help. I just heard on NPR of all things, a show that had as its theme, apparitions of ghosts. And if you are a Catholic, you can understand right away, if you’re Catholic of a certain sort, if you’re kind of modernistic and don’t believe in anything, you might not like it. But if you’re a full faith Catholic that likes all that stuff, purgatory stories and whatnot, then you’d go-
Cy:
Reality.
Fr. Hugh:
Okay, I get this. So, this totally secular teacher is in the school, in a town that had an enormous fire a hundred years ago and everything burnt down. And in her classroom, things kept moving around. In the morning she would find some of the chalk in the middle of the room, this was back when they were using chalkboards instead of those eraser boards. And different things like that, and also a little message in the bottom corner of the chalkboard, written in perfect old fashioned cursive that she knew none of her children wrote, nor did she write, “Help!” With an exclamation point.
Fr. Hugh:
Now, any Catholic would know, okay, someone’s asking for prayers. And when I heard this story, I started praying for the lady, because the NPR people were not getting it. It was just a spooky story. And then she finally went up to her room, because the kids said they could see her looking out the window at night, and wonder why she was in the school room so often at night. And so, she became a little worried about staying there by herself at night to finish her work, because the kids kept saying there was someone there when she wasn’t there.
Fr. Hugh:
So finally, on one occasion, she comes after a teacher’s meeting where she had to go back to the room to get her purse, and there’s this old lady standing in a black dress, with a high white collar facing the board. And she called to her and said, “You’re not allowed in here.” This is your total, educated, progressive woman, who even when she has been hearing about ghosts, when someone’s been writing on her board in handwriting that no one has, has been doing all this stuff. And our kids have seen it too. And she’s still, even confronted with the apparition, she says, “You don’t belong here. Why are you in here?”
Cy:
Yeah, consulted the handbook.
Fr. Hugh:
She would not admit that it was a ghost. So the woman turns towards her with this horribly burnt face, remember the whole town burned. This is before the school building was built, okay? Then later on, so the woman finally begins to wonder, and so she goes, and she checks out records in the town at the time of the fire, and pictures of teachers in the town. She finds a picture of that teacher, who looks remarkably like her. Even more, has a certain favor. And she begins to wonder, was she trying to communicate with me or what? Well, if she were Catholic she’d know, well, help means help. How do you help the departed? You pray for them. That’s what we do.
Fr. Hugh:
So here, we had a show on Halloween, which was a celebration for prayer, for the departed. That’s how it began, that’s why people did it. They went and they asked for alms for, because they were poor, they asked for something from the better off, they received it, that’s the candy. And then in return, they would pray for the dead of those that gave the gift, or the food, or whatever it was. Probably they wanted meat, cheese and bread, they probably didn’t want candy. Candy was not a big thing in the Middle Ages, because sugar was almost not invented.
Fr. Hugh:
But in any case, that particular judgment can take many, many forms. And St. Thomas talks about that. He says, sometimes there’s a question whether the demons triumph or punish the souls in purgatory. There’s lots of purgatory stories in the Middle Ages, that have the souls going down to the real Hell of the damned, but they’re going to get out. And the demons tortured them, like they tortured the damned. St. Thomas corrects it, he says, “No, it is not appropriate for the demons to punish those who have triumphed over them.” And therefore the demons are not allowed to trouble the souls in purgatory, but then he says, “But the devil may accompany the soul to the place where it is going, just to see if he can keep something that belongs to him.”
Fr. Hugh:
And that goes back to like the CS Lewis story, where the ravenous Screwtape, where they’re desperate to keep some little sign of triumph for the hope that they have, that maybe someone will be lost along with them, and they’re just looking for the evidence. And of course, so the particular judgment has to do with our own particular sins and faults, and that’s the really important one, if you will, for our personal point of view. And that’s the one we undergo in the presence of the savior, and that’s where we’re given every chance. And that’s where we always see the depiction of our guardian angel defending us, the devil accusing us.
Fr. Hugh:
And he is there. I mean, people think that’s too mythological a presentation, but it’s not. The devil is a personal being, and there are many of them, and his name Satan, means accuser. And we read and we sing triumphantly from the apocalypse, the accuser, our brother, is cast out, who night and day accuse him before God. And who is the opposite of the accuser? Jesus Christ, the righteous, the advocate of sinners who ever lives, as Saint Paul says, to make intercession for us. And so, we have our intercessor and our merciful advocate judging us. So we’re in pretty good shape, but the devil will keep a close record, like any mean, vicious, unkindly disposed person will always do everything in the worst possible light, and we’ll just be working hard.
Fr. Hugh:
That’s why it’s important to go to confession, especially for sins of which we’re particularly ashamed, and are grave, because what is covered in confession, he’s not going to be able to play around with. He’ll only be able to play around with what we haven’t actually consciously repented of, and he can play games with that. But our guardian angel knows the whole story, and he’ll be there for our defense. So the main thing in life is to be making excontrition, to be preparing for the judgment, examining our conscience, viewing ourselves as unflinchingly as we can. And if we can’t view ourselves unflinchingly, because that can be really hard. Sometimes it’s hard just to look at our physical body in the mirror, much less our soul.
Cy:
I haven’t for 30 years.
Fr. Hugh:
Okay, yes. Has it been that recently? Amazing.
Cy:
Well, let me ask you-
Fr. Hugh:
But I mean, the thing is there is just, if we do that continually, we’ll prepare ourselves for that judgment. And if we can’t bear to do it, then we just simply throw ourselves in the mercy of the savior, and say, “Dear Lord, please give me a gentle judgment because I know I’m a sinner.” That’s the particular judgment.
Cy:
Okay. But let me ask you one quick thing.
Fr. Hugh:
Sure.
Cy:
I remember reading about Saint Teresa of Avila, and as she was nearing her death, she said to the Lord, “Now we’re going to meet each other face to face,” and she seemed very happy about that. Should we aim for that kind of confidence as we approach death? Is that a noble, or should we… Sometimes, I mean, okay. I was raised Irish, Irish American Catholic.
Fr. Hugh:
What are you now?
Cy:
What am I now? I’m a Presbyterian, half Buddhist. I’m just saying, what do you mean what am I now?
Fr. Hugh:
Ethnicity, we were talking about, not religion. I assumed the Catholic part.
Cy:
Now, you can choose your ethnicity, sex and ethnicity.
Fr. Hugh:
Oh that’s right, exactly. There was a guy who claimed to be a Filipino woman, and he was a white guy, that was on the news.
Cy:
So, I’m not going to go that far though. But what I mean is like, I guess I was raised to be more afraid than that. And Teresa didn’t seem afraid, she seemed to be like, “I’m really looking forward to seeing you.”
Fr. Hugh:
Well, I think fear is an order, but it’s a feeling of fear that is of our love for God, that we want to be ready to meet him. And so, we pray against a sudden and unprovided death. We pray for that. Now, if you’re death is sudden, make sure it’s provided. Say your prayers every morning. Think of God during the day, repent immediately after you fall, and you’ll be fine. Make the intention to go to confession regularly, and do. All those things put us in good stead, so that we don’t have to be in a state of fear. So yes, I would say mostly the encounter with Jesus should be one that we want, because we said, do you want to meet Jesus? Yes, of course we do.
Cy:
At least that’s how Teresa felt, I have always admired her. Okay, so that’s the particular judgment. Then after your particular judgment, if all things going well, maybe have some purgation, maybe you’re a superstar and you go straight to Heaven.
Fr. Hugh:
Or a little baby, after baptism.
Cy:
A little baby gets to go right to Heaven, yeah, right? Okay, so now you’re in Heaven, and you’re just so happy. And then one day they go, “Oh, it’s the apocalypse. Time for the general judgment.” Is that what happens, or no?
Fr. Hugh:
Well, there is first, the general resurrection, where our Lord commands the dead to rise. When he does that, then there is a general judgment of the entire human race. And how does that occur? The various traditional versions are that it happens in the Valley of Jehosaphat, there in the Holy land.
Cy:
Oh, right here on Earth?
Fr. Hugh:
[crosstalk 00:15:45] is gathered here on earth before Christ the judge, to be judged where they sinned or where they didn’t sin. That’s the ancient tradition, that the whole universe will be gathered in that one place. But whatever, that’s not a defined dogma, but it certainly was the assumption of the fathers and the medieval writers, because that’s the tradition, they didn’t have any reason not to accept that.
Cy:
Now, say you’re way in the back.
Fr. Hugh:
The penetrating gaze of our Lord sees everyone. But what we understand is the particular judgment is very different from the general one. The particular is particular, it’s about you and your sins. The general judgment is about the manifestation overall, of the justice of God’s ways, in rewarding the good and punishing the wicked. And so, and we do not undergo a judgment for our particular sins, one by one at the general judgment. We simply are there, those who are saved are on the Lord’s right side, those who are lost are on the left, as the gospel is presented.
Fr. Hugh:
That is, that it is a public witness to the corporate or community destiny of souls. So, it’s not like everybody is going to know everything about everybody else. Now in Heaven, we have all eternity to rejoice in each other’s triumph over sin. And so, there won’t be any shame in Heaven, even for other people to know the sins we committed, because it all redounds to triumph and gratitude. And so, it won’t be something that has to be kept secret. In Heaven, there’s no seal of the confessional, because no one’s going to be interested in confessing their sins.
Cy:
That’s not what the general judgment is for though.
Fr. Hugh:
Right, the general judgment is-
Cy:
Then Bob did this, then…
Fr. Hugh:
Right, it is not. Now, it is true that certain souls at the general judgment will receive a particular treatment, because of some aspect of the judgment which redounds more to the glory of God, or which requires, you might say, a more complete revelation or understanding. For example, just to use examples that would be in our present culture, although they may or may not be the best. But let’s just say, say if you’re standing next to Adolf Hitler, and he ends up being in Heaven.
Cy:
I hope if I’m standing next to him, he did, because I don’t want to be on the…
Fr. Hugh:
Right, exactly. All right, so there you go. But that seems to me, for everybody, whatever your place in the political spectrum.
Cy:
You’d be like, this needs an explanation.
Fr. Hugh:
Now, wait a minute. Would you please explain to me how this happened?
Cy:
I see what you mean.
Fr. Hugh:
And then, so God would reveal the marvels and mysteries and wonders of his grace, what he accomplished in the soul, against all evidence. Now, I’m not saying that’s about… No one go say that, “Father, you said Adolf Hitler went to Heaven,” but rather the point is we simply don’t know. And the church does not define that souls are in Hell, the church defines that people are in Heaven, by canonizing them, but the church doesn’t even have the authority, I think, to define that people are in Hell. For the simple reason that there’s no edifying purpose to that. What’s the point of [crosstalk 00:18:46].
Cy:
When you say that people are in Hell, you mean a particular person.
Fr. Hugh:
Person, right.
Cy:
But there are people in Hell.
Fr. Hugh:
According to the common and traditional teaching of the church, most undoubtedly, everybody admits that. Even people that don’t believe it, they know that’s the church’s traditional teaching. And so, for souls that are safe and require a particular explanation, down to God’s glory or whatever, that might be puzzling to the intellect or the understanding. Say Judas is saved, well, that’ll be an explanation. So we’ll find out, what did you mean when you said it would be better for me if I’d never been born? There will be an explanation. There will be some, but only for the manifestation of God’s goodness, and his glory, and the joy of all the elect, because actually we’d have to admit it. If somehow enough Adolf Hitler was saved, then we have to be happy about it. If somehow he was saved, we have to be happy about it. Now, that’s something that sounds a little risky to say nowadays, but the fact is, it underlines the problem. Yes, it is risky nowadays.
Cy:
I understand that, but-
Fr. Hugh:
I know in the media-
Cy:
But you’re at the final judgment, you know that everything you have is by the grace of God. Of course, you’ll be happy for every soul that’s saved.
Fr. Hugh:
Oh, there. I’m talking about now, that to say that now is a risky thing to say. But what I’m saying there is that, that illustrates something which is very important about, consigning this person and that person, and the other person to Hell, which some people do very easily. And that is, if someone is certainly in Hell, then that means not only do you not have to love them, you can’t love them. Now, to tell a Christian that somebody you can’t love, why can’t you love them? Because loving is bestowing a good on someone. If someone has lost the supreme good, then you can’t offer them something less, whatever good that you have to offer. If they’ve rejected God himself, then what could you possibly give them in the way of a good, that would be…
Fr. Hugh:
Now, you could say accidentally, as they did in the Middle Ages, they would pray that their pains be mitigated on certain feast days, and stuff like that. There are all kinds of charming considerations.
Cy:
Oh, I like that.
Fr. Hugh:
There even were collects in the Roman Missal, up to Pius X’s, that prayed for souls whose salvation was despaired of. If this person wasn’t saved, at least mitigate their pains, oh Lord, it’s like that. Which is kind of bad theology.
Cy:
Is it?
Fr. Hugh:
But it’s in there in the tradition, it’s there. It shows how concretely people viewed all of this. But the fact is the general judgment is not a particular judgment, except in the cases that maybe are required for the revelation of the glory of God. And those might be considerable, and they might be for also to increase of the joy of those who are among the elect. But it’s rather a manifestation, that the second coming is a manifestation where everything will be seen and understood. And then the particular part will be revealed by the elect to each other. They’ll be talking about, and communicating about, and rejoicing in forever, all the different experiences, and how God saved them from their sins, and all those things. So, there are no secrets, and I’ve always said that. Everything you say in secret, will be shouted over the house tops, but the general judgment is a big celebration of God’s justice and mercy.
Cy:
Yeah, okay. I see, I see.
Fr. Hugh:
So, and therefore we could view it with a certain terror because it certainly will be fearsome, because it’s just so great. Anything that enormous and significant in the life of the human race is going to be, have a certain awe inspiring, scary aspect to it, but also be consoling and joy giving for the blessed, when they hear [inaudible 00:00:22:30]’s voice saying, “Come and inherit the kingdom.”
Cy:
Right, right. Okay, so if I may then, in one part of the gospel, it seems like the souls in Heaven and the souls in Hell can speak to one another. Is that true or, or not?
Fr. Hugh:
Well, among the departed, before the general resurrection, they can only communicate by the permission of God, and the assistance of the angels. So, we would assume say between Abraham and Dives, the rich man, as we used to call him in the… Dives, Dives, that there would have been some angelic ability. If they’re both disembodied spirits, but souls, they don’t have the power to communicate without special help. Angels can do that with no problem, but we require our bodies. When our bodies aren’t there, we need something from the outside. So, God gives them regularly, that possibility of communicating. But we always have to remember when there are communications for the departed, there has to be some angelic help.
Cy:
Oh, okay.
Fr. Hugh:
Now, so they communicate, and they can if God arranges it so. Of course, the question there is, was the rich man in the Hell of the damned, or in purgatory? And that’s an interesting question, because of course he had pity on his brothers and begged him to go back and tell them-
Cy:
In Hell, there is no charity in Hell.
Fr. Hugh:
And you don’t think that they would have any charity at all. So some authors, especially in reaction to Protestantism, said well, actually doesn’t that sound like purgatory? Because why would he care about where his brothers came? St. Thomas, following the fathers and never wanting to disagree with them, says it’s the Hell of the damned, and says he’s only asking because he knows his punishment will be worse if more of them come down. So, he has a rather minimalistic interpretation. But I think that the broader interpretation that was in the light of Protestant errors regarding the existence of purgatory, is a very reasonable one.
Fr. Hugh:
Because you have to remember in the early church, everything, and in Judaism, everything that wasn’t Heaven was called Hell. Even purgatory is in Hell, Limbo is in Hell, and the Hell of the damned is in Hell. Hell was just any place that it isn’t Heaven. And then later on, we made theological precisions, to make it clear about the moral status and experience of the person. So you have Limbo for the Limbo of the just, we have the Limbo of infants, we have the Purgatory for those being purified after death, but on their way to Heaven. And then you have the Hell of the damned. But they were all depicted as one place, that’s why you say in the creed, he descended into Hell, that refers to all of that. So, we shouldn’t be surprised that sometimes when it says Hell, it may have meant Purgatory, it may have meant, basically it’s any place that isn’t Heaven after death.
Cy:
All right. So if I die and I go to Heaven now, I can talk to St. Teresa, but-
Fr. Hugh:
You can talk to her right now.
Cy:
But the angel’s going to have to help me. No, no, I know I can talk to her now, but in Heaven, I’ll have to have an angel help.
Fr. Hugh:
No, not in Heaven, it’s before the resurrection.
Cy:
Before the resurrection, I got it.
Fr. Hugh:
Because we require bodies. So, if our bodies communicate or move anything physical after death with just our soul, then some other force has to intervene to assist us, because human disembodied souls can’t do anything on their own. Therefore, the souls of the departed, according to traditional [inaudible 00:25:53] thinking, you can have a different opinion if you want, but would be that there’s some reason why God is having the soul manifest itself for the salvation of the living. Or a demonic deceit, that does the same thing. And so, but the souls of the departed on their own, cannot intervene without assistance.
Cy:
All right, well, thanks Father. I’m going to pray for the lady who needs help, the teacher that got burned.
Fr. Hugh:
Yeah, isn’t it an amazing story?
Cy:
Say a prayer for her.
Fr. Hugh:
Help right there in the chalkboard, come on.
Cy:
It’s very easy, Hail Mary.
Fr. Hugh:
Right, exactly.
Cy:
Could we have your blessing before we go, Father?
Fr. Hugh:
[Latin 00:26:37]. Amen.
Cy:
Amen.
Cy:
I have to say, I find it particularly comforting out of all of what Father Hugh just said, just this notion that the one who judges us is also the one who advocates for us, the one who is rooting for us, the one who wants this all to work out the best that it can possibly work out for us. It gives us some impetus, not just to be terrified of our judgment before the Lord, but to look forward to it, as the time in which he not only judges us, but helps us. As a matter of fact, his judgments are helpful. Thanks for joining us this time on Catholic Answers Live. We really do appreciate it when you join us, and we appreciate it when you communicate with us. You can do that by sending us an email to focus@catholic.com. If you’ve got an episode that you’d like to hear, maybe a guest that you’d like us to have on, just send us an email, focus@catholic.com.
Cy:
Don’t forget if you’re watching on YouTube, please like and subscribe. That helps us to grow the podcast, it also helps us to grow the podcast wherever you’re listening to this podcast, if you’ll give us that five star review and maybe write a comment, so other people will take a chance on us, and give us a listen once or twice, and maybe become regular listeners. If you’d like to be notified when new episodes are available on Focus, don’t forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, whether it’s Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you might get it. Then you get the update when we have a new episode out, I’m Cy Kellett, your host. We’re grateful that you joined us, we’ll see you again next time, God willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.