Audio only:
Michael Lofton of the Reason and Theology podcast shares his experience of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy and eventually returning. He explains why he concluded he needed to be in communion with the pope, and why every Christian should.
Cy Kellett:
Is the grass greener in the Orthodox Church? Michael Lofton next. Hello, and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. This week, we welcome Michael Lofton who made his way from Protestantism into Catholic Church, made his way from the Catholic Church into Greek Orthodoxy. And then from Greek Orthodoxy back into the Catholic Church. He’s now the proprietor of reason and theology and the St. Maximus the Confessor Institute.
Cy Kellett:
And we’re really delighted to welcome him as an affiliate apologist here at Catholic Answers, a new program we have here at Catholic Answers where we have several really fine, exciting, younger apologist who are affiliates now of Catholic Answers, something that we are thrilled about here, and we hope will produce all kinds of great work in collaboration with them as we go into the future.
Cy Kellett:
Michael Lofton, one of those and considering his journey, we thought we’d ask him, “Does it make sense, given the scandals, given all the really ugliness in the Catholic Church in recent decades, to maybe leave for a time and go over to Orthodoxy?” Here’s what Michael Lofton had to say.
Cy Kellett:
Apologist Michael Lofton, thanks for being with us.
Michael Lofton:
Hey Cy. Thanks for having me on, it’s an honor.
Cy Kellett:
Well, I’ll tell you what, it’s an honor is we are associated with you now and we feel very honored about that. We have a new thing here at Catholic Answers, affiliate apologist, which is it so far just been a great blessing to us and you are one of the first affiliate apologist of Catholic Answers so thanks for coming aboard.
Michael Lofton:
Glad to do it. I’m really honored. Catholic Answers played a pretty crucial role in my conversion back in 2012. So it really is an honor to be here.
Cy Kellett:
Well, so was after that you went to Christian College, got your master’s in theology-
Michael Lofton:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
… working on your doctorate in theology now?
Michael Lofton:
That’s correct.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So you’re the founder of the St. Maximus the Confessor Institute and the Reason and Theology show? You’ve been busy.
Michael Lofton:
That’s right. Little busy, yeah. Got a lot going on, but you’re right. Reason and Theology especially is the one that seems to be the most time consuming. It’s a channel on YouTube so I end up doing about one to maybe three shows a day. So, that does take up most of my time.
Cy Kellett:
Good for you. That’s great.
Michael Lofton:
Thank you.
Cy Kellett:
And a great asset to the Catholic Church to people who would like to explore, defend, understand the Catholic faith, but you left Michael at one point you left us.
Michael Lofton:
I did and it definitely ties into the discussion today. So I came into the Catholic Church in 2012 from Protestantism, read my way back through history into the Catholic Church and had about five years where I just experienced a lot of negativity. I saw a lot of scandals, not only on universal level, but personally. And I had had to suffer some things at the hands of bad clergy, my family and I, and a lot of that really just frankly, again, scandalized me.
Michael Lofton:
And so I began to consider, “Well, maybe I should go to Eastern Orthodoxy. Maybe I made the wrong decision. Perhaps God in his Providence is showing me, ‘Michael, you made the wrong choice. You should have gone the Orthodox route.'” So I began to discern that and I spent a couple of years discerning Orthodoxy in addition to the previous years I had already put in.
Michael Lofton:
And I came to the conviction that providentially it seems that God is saying, I need to go to Orthodoxy, which I did. And I spent about three years in Eastern Orthodoxy but the entire time I continued to study the issue was involving Catholicism and Orthodoxy. And the more I studied, the more I became convinced of the necessity of being in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Michael Lofton:
The more I saw the people claims in the first millennium and the more the words from Lumen Gentium where it talks about, “You cannot be saved if you know, the Catholic Church was established by Christ and you refuse to remain in it or enter it.” Those words continue to press on my conscience. So after several years of wrestling with that, I finally reconciled myself with the Catholic Church and returned to communion.
Michael Lofton:
And I think that was the best decision that I made, but I’m actually very happy that I went through that experience because it really taught me how to relate to what a lot of people are going through today. And that is doubts on whether or not they should be in the Catholic Church.
Cy Kellett:
Well, let me just ask you a practical question, if I may? Living in the deep south of the United States, I can see on a practical level, you leave to become Methodist. I get there’s probably a Methodist Church in every town in the South. How do you practically leave to become Orthodox? Where do you go? What do you do? Who do you talk to?
Michael Lofton:
Well, there is a local Greek Orthodox Church that I was able to find refuge in. But, you’re right. It is more uncommon, right? Especially in my area, you tend to find mostly Baptist and Charismatics, but you do have some Orthodox Churches here and there. Now, there are other options for people who don’t have a local Orthodox parish available to them. There are certain associations and ties that you can have with the nearest parish that might be far away.
Michael Lofton:
But you’re right, there is a practical difficulty there in actually becoming Orthodox. And in other cases, there might be another practical difficulty, and that is, there might be multiple Orthodox jurisdictions, some of which don’t even recognize each other anymore or at least aren’t in communion with each other at this time. So there then becomes practical problems of, “Okay, well, which Orthodox Church do I join?”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, this is a thing of great sadness at the moment and one that really I don’t… At least I haven’t sensed that among Catholics there’s some sense of, you can kind of be uppity or have schadenfreude or whatever, but it doesn’t feel like that. It feels like Orthodoxy has really suffered a wound in recent years with some mutual excommunications. Maybe you tell us just about that real quick.
Michael Lofton:
Yeah, there’s a major division right now taking place between the Russian Orthodox Church and especially the Patriarch of Constantinople although it’s now spilled over into issues involving the Alexandrian patriarch hit. So long story short, there are some internal schisms going on right now in Orthodoxy. And I don’t say that with any kind of glee in my voice. In fact, I don’t like that. I’m opposed to it.
Michael Lofton:
One of the reasons why I think that’s bad, even for Catholics is because as a Catholic you should want to see reunion with Eastern Orthodox.
Cy Kellett:
Amen, right.
Michael Lofton:
And if they are divided, it makes it that much-
Cy Kellett:
Harder.
Michael Lofton:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Right. And I hope that an Orthodox person would feel that way about the liturgical battles in the Roman church. We are headed for union with one another. I don’t know if it’s going to be this decade, this year. I don’t know if it’s going to be next decade, next century. But we are headed for union with one another. And we should rejoice when the union grows and really be alarmed when this unity affects any of us.
Michael Lofton:
I agree, because the Catholic Church needs the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Cy Kellett:
Amen.
Michael Lofton:
They do liturgy extremely well and there’s a lot that we could learn from them. There’s a lot we could learn with their conviction to remain faithful, to antiquity and tradition.
Cy Kellett:
What are you talking about? We do liturgy. Have you not-
Michael Lofton:
Yeah, but they do it very well so there’s some things we could learn there. But on the flip side, there’s a lot that they would benefit from us and that is-
Cy Kellett:
Sure.
Michael Lofton:
… how to structure the church and how to have primacy in the church mixed with synodality. So there’s a lot of strengths that Catholicism has that they would benefit from.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So how does one make the decision then about the particular Orthodox Church? Do you think that when people leave Catholicism… Or I’m thinking about is someone like Hank Hanegraaff, who I could have just asked this himself, who leaves Protestantism to join Orthodoxy, is there a general place that people go or you’re more likely if there’s a local Orthodox Church just to go there? Or how do people make that decision?
Michael Lofton:
At least in the United States, people will often tend to either go to one of the Russian jurisdictions or the Greek Orthodox Church. I mean, obviously there’s exceptions, but those tend to be the largest. And what I’ve noticed is that the more traditional converts lean to the Russian jurisdictions. And there’s multiple reasons for that we could get into it, but those are the two main communities that they go into.
Michael Lofton:
But again, the problem right now is the Russian patriarch does not recognize the patriarch of Constantinople, which the Greek Orthodox Church is under that’s their patriarch. So there is an internal schism going on there. There is a lack of communion. Now, some will say, “Oh, but that doesn’t exist on the actual local parish level.”
Michael Lofton:
Well, actually in some cases it does. Now, in some cases, maybe you’re Russian Orthodox and you can go to a local Greek church or vice versa, you’re a Greek Orthodoxy you can go to a local Russian church and receive communion, but in some cases that’s not the case. But definitely on the level of patriarchs, they’re not sharing in communion together, at least on Russia’s end. Right? I think the Patriarch of Constantinople would be willing, but it’s more on Moscow’s end that they’re not willing to share.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So it doesn’t seem very hard given the last 25 years, maybe even longer than that, but let’s just take the last 25 years of public humiliation, scandal, horror in the Latin church to see why you would go. I’m not a proponent of that and we’ll discuss that, but it’s not hard to see why you would go, but then you come back. It seems like from a purely intellectual insight that you really must be in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Michael Lofton:
That’s the deal breaker for me. That’s the main reason why I returned to communion with Rome is because, long story short, if we look at what Christ did in the first century he established a church but in addition to establishing the church, he established a leadership body, a governing body and a teaching body. And that is the apostles.
Michael Lofton:
In addition to that, though, he placed St. Peter at the head of the apostles in leadership, and that didn’t die out in the first entry. I mean, it would be absurd to establish a church with a leadership structure that dies out within a few decades. That leadership structure endures in the successors of the apostles and that is the bishops, and of course, that leadership role of St. Peter among the apostles also endures with the successor of St. Peter, and that is the Bishop of Rome.
Michael Lofton:
So you do have this idea and antiquity attested to in the first millennium that the Bishop of Rome takes the role of St. Peter among the apostles. He has that role among the bishops and union with the Bishop of Rome is essential to union with Christ’s church. And you can see this attested to, for example, in what’s called the formula of Hermes, which ended a schism in the fifth century, which many Orthodox… Well, I should say many Eastern bishops signed.
Michael Lofton:
And again, this formula notes that, “To be in communion with the Catholic Church, it’s essential to be in communion with the apostolic namely, the Bishop of Rome.” So it’s kind of like this, if you take a step away from that leadership structure, away from it from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, there’s a real sense in which you lose some unity with Christ Himself because Christ incarnation is extended into his mystical body, into the Catholic Church.
Michael Lofton:
So if you detract from that, if you take a step away from that mystical body, the Catholic Church, you are unfortunately taking a step away from Christ. And I think that that’s the problem that Catholics find themselves in if they are tempted to go the Eastern Orthodox route, they would effectively be taking a step back from their unity with Christ. And that’s one of the most problematic aspects of Catholic who go to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Michael Lofton:
That’s not to say that Eastern Orthodox don’t have any unity with Christ. That’s not to say they don’t have any unity with the church He established, but it is to say they don’t have a perfect unity with Christ in his church. It is to say that there is something vital lacking, and it’s not within God’s will for us to fall away from that. I mean, we should want to be perfectly within God’s will, so we should want to be perfectly united with Him in His church.
Cy Kellett:
So the phrase that many Catholics use for coming into the church from Protestants is, “Swimming the Tiber.” Coming across that river, that divides the Vatican side from downtown Rome. I never quite understood this swimming the Tiber thing, because both sides are Catholic actually in Rome. But okay, whatever, swimming the Tiber. So you use the phrase, “Swimming the Bosphorus,” meaning heading east, leaving the more European side, lung maybe, of the church, heading to the other lung. You’ve done it and you don’t recommend it, but you don’t… Go ahead.
Michael Lofton:
Go ahead, I’m sorry.
Cy Kellett:
I was just going to say, but that doesn’t mean you’ve become a Pollyanna in regards to the Latin, right?
Michael Lofton:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), that’s true. And the reason why I don’t recommend it, having not only experienced it but just continuing to reflect on this objectively, I should say. I know a lot of people don’t want to hear this. I know it might be controversial to some people, but if you go from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, objectively speaking, it’s a schismatic act.
Michael Lofton:
That’s not to say that there might not be mitigating circumstances, right? There could be mitigating circumstances for a Catholic who goes from Catholicism to Orthodoxy. Perhaps they were abused by priest. Obviously there’s a mitigating circumstance there. So I’m not making judgements necessarily on an individual’s soul who goes from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, but I’m just saying objectively speaking it is a schismatic act, which is objectively a grave sin.
Michael Lofton:
And it objectively puts one’s soul in peril because the way the Catholic Church defines schism is, “It’s a lack of submission to the Roman pontiff or being in communion with those who are subject to him.” Which of course is the case if you were to leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy. And as I noted earlier, the Second Vatican Council in Lumen Gentium paragraph 14 is very clear, “If you know that Catholic Church is established by Christ and you were refuse to enter or remain in it, you cannot be saved.”
Michael Lofton:
That’s the Second Vatican Council. And that’s why I don’t recommend it because objectively speaking, you’re putting your soul in peril. Again, I’m not making judgments on any individuals, but I am saying objectively, it’s very dangerous territory.
Cy Kellett:
What about the person who says, “But Christ could not have willed all of this that has gone on, this abuse, all the money chicanery, all the, I don’t know, princeliness of bishops who should have been humble rather than princely?” Just thought, “The whole ugly mess that we’ve been in, Christ couldn’t have willed that, how could He want me to stay in this church?”
Michael Lofton:
Well, it would be like saying Christ doesn’t will for me to go and commit sinful acts, that’s true. But also there is a providential sense in which he allows for it. Right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Michael Lofton:
So of course, Christ does not will for any of the controversies in the Catholic Church, but He may allow for it. On flip side, He doesn’t will for you to commit a, objectively speaking, immoral schismatic act by taking a step away, I should say, from communion with his church. So if we’re concerned about God’s will, that should also be concerning for us.
Cy Kellett:
There’s a little bit of, the grass is greener kind of thing here that we can romanticize those and maybe even exoticize the East, like it’s some kind of liturgical paradise.
Michael Lofton:
Yeah, and you know what? There’s a lot of strengths to Orthodoxy liturgically speaking. So there is a lure there, and there’s a lot of good things that they have to offer, but you’re right to know the grass isn’t necessarily greener on the other side. In fact, in some cases, unfortunately I think it might be scorched to earth. I mean, I think for example, some people might leave Catholicism for Orthodoxy thinking that they’re going to escape liberalism or modernistic aspects in the Catholic Church.
Cy Kellett:
Oh yes, right.
Michael Lofton:
They might find that in Orthodoxy though, that’s the troubling aspect, right? They might see an Archbishop promoting certain political figures that are very questionable or even promoting moral positions that are very questionable. So you end up finding practically speaking that the grass isn’t necessarily greener because you see certain things that are being, being promoted that you find in the Catholic Church.
Michael Lofton:
So it could be that you’re trying to escape some of these problems in the Catholic Church, just to find out that you’re experiencing the same exact issues over there. And I can give more examples.
Cy Kellett:
Would you please, because I’d like to know? Practically I don’t actually know that much about the inner workings of the various Orthodox Churches. So in a practical sense, if I leave Rome and head towards Greece, what will I find?
Michael Lofton:
Well, I think one troubling aspect that you might find is, for example, there’s a lot of concern in Catholicism about prayers with people who are non-Catholics, sometimes that’s seen as, “Oh, this is a false understanding of a humanism and this is going against God’s will because you’re praying with schismatics.” And people think that, “Okay. Well, if I leave Catholicism, I won’t have to endure some of these problems.”
Michael Lofton:
Perhaps you might be troubled by what you see, for example, with John Paul II in 1986 with Assisi, some people are really troubled by some of those things, but then you go to Orthodoxy and you see Orthodox archbishops or bishops praying publicly with other Catholic bishops, so you see the same exact thing there. And in fact, I mentioned Assisi 1986, unfortunately there are quite a few Orthodox representatives that participated in that event.
Michael Lofton:
So if you try to leave Catholicism thinking that you’re going to find refuge in Orthodoxy from praying with non-Catholics well, you’re going to find the same thing praying with non-Orthodox in many circle in Orthodoxy. Another thing is some people are troubled by what they feel to be liberal doctrines or universalism espoused in Catholicism.
Michael Lofton:
In fact, though, if you go to Orthodoxy, it’s actually pretty prevalent to find Orthodox clergy and bishops promoting a form of universalism that ultimately everybody is going to be reconciled to Christ. So you’re going to find some of those doctrinal problems. Now, another troubling aspect is you might say, “Well, there’s a lot of Catholics that aren’t following church teaching on contraception or divorce and remarriage. And there’s problems with the annulment system,” and things like that.
Michael Lofton:
You go to Orthodoxy and there is by quite a few Orthodox clergy, a promotion, or at least an allowance I should say, of artificial contraception, divorce, and remarriage and other troubling aspects. So again, there’s a lot of people that are discontent with what’s going on in Catholicism, but they end up finding out that those things are also taking place there.
Michael Lofton:
The sex scandals is another one. I mean, you find that in Catholicism, unfortunately, but if you take a look in Orthodoxy, they have the same problems. And, again, I don’t say that gleefully. I don’t say that in any kind of joyful way, I think that the problem of sin, you’re going to find in any communion out there. So if you’re to go to Orthodoxy, don’t do it because you think that this is going to be something or some kind of safe haven, it needs to be because you’re actually convicted that this is the church that Christ established.
Michael Lofton:
But once we get into that discussion, we’re away from subjective factors and we’re now into objective criteria, “Okay. Well, is this in fact, the church that Christ established let’s talk about it. Let’s see what the scripture says, what the councils say, what the fathers say?” When you bring it back into the realm of what is objectively true, I think we can show the Catholic Church is the fullness of the faith and Orthodoxy is a step away from that.
Michael Lofton:
But if we’re just focusing on this objective and we don’t really know what things really look like feet on the ground in the Orthodox Church, there might be a lure there. We might think that the grass is actually greener when it’s not.
Cy Kellett:
One of the things that I think that is actually a barrier between Protestants, especially many evangelical or fundamentalist Protestants, but many Protestants in the United States and Catholics, is our understanding of the role of the nation in our faith. And the Catholic tendency to say, “Well, God didn’t call the country, He called the church.”
Cy Kellett:
Where a Protestant is much more likely to seek church and nation, I don’t know, intertwined in ways that Catholics are generally very uncomfortable intertwining them. It strikes me that Orthodoxy has a nationalism problem that’s very similar, the Catholic Church tends to be non-nationalist but I wonder about that. This is looking from afar, but it seems like there’s a nationalism problem in Orthodoxy.
Michael Lofton:
Yeah, no, in fairness to Orthodox that has been objectively condemned in Orthodoxy.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Michael Lofton:
So objectively they have condemned it, but they do struggle with that practically. But it’s similar to Catholicism, objectively we’ve condemned the use of artificial contraception, but you have Catholics that struggle with that. So in their-
Cy Kellett:
Or don’t struggle with it is the main problem.
Michael Lofton:
Maybe you’re right. But, in their favor, they do have that. Now, and I will say on the flip side in Catholicism, you do have that aspect subjectively as well.
Cy Kellett:
Sure.
Michael Lofton:
Where we have in the Eastern Catholic Churches, you do have some national aspects to them. And as long as it’s done properly, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. I mean, the gospel was enculturated in particular cultures. That’s okay. It’s whenever you start to say that, “My culture is superior to yours and I’m going to look down on you.” Okay, that’s when you have problems, but again, that has been objectively condemned by the Orthodox.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. All right, fair enough. Do you think that when you leave Rome for the East, so to speak, that might contribute to the future unity of the churches that we are restored to full unity? Or do you think that actually might be exacerbating the problem?
Michael Lofton:
I think it makes it worse. Some of the opinion that, “If you’re, for example, Orthodox and you become convicted of Catholicism, you should stay where you’re at.” Or, “If you’re Catholic, you can become convicted of Orthodoxy, stay where you’re at.” Or perhaps go to the other one to help bring them to unity. I don’t think any of those work to be honest, I think ultimately the ecclesiology we need to maintain is that there is one Catholic Church, it fully subsists in what we call the Catholic Church, and we need to work towards unity with that.
Michael Lofton:
So if an Orthodox becomes convicted that they need to be in community with Rome, they need to do that. And any Catholic who is currently Catholic should, objectively speaking, in no circumstance ever go to Eastern Orthodox, even if it’s under a pretense of bringing them into communion. It’s kind of like, what is it called? Evangelism dating or something, “I’m going to go and date a non-Christian in trying to convert them to Christianity.”
Michael Lofton:
What ends up happening is, more often than not, you end up getting converted to whatever they are. And so, if you go from Catholicism to Orthodoxy to try to bring them to communion with Rome, odds are you’re actually going to end up just being further away from Catholicism, not only objectively, but even subjectively speaking. But again, you’re putting your soul danger according to the Second Vatican Council and it’s just simply reiterating what we have there in our tradition as well.
Michael Lofton:
And so the question is, if Christ actually did establish the Catholic Church, should we ever take a step away from that community? I don’t think so because we’re taking a step away from Christ Himself. In what case would it ever be okay to take a step away from Christ? I can’t name one.
Cy Kellett:
No, indeed. There is never a time when a step away from Christ is the right step, never. That’s metaphysical impossible. I don’t know if I could make an argument, but I can sense that’s a metaphysical impossibility. So if one is convinced that, “Yeah, I’m going to step away from Christ to be closer to Christ.” No, don’t do that.
Michael Lofton:
Correct.
Cy Kellett:
But, the liturgical problems within the Catholic Church are in some places minor, in other places they almost cried to heaven with this scandal. I mean, I actually know quite a few Catholic people who say, “I’m going to the Byzantine Catholic Church. I’m going to go to the Maronite Catholic Church.” What do you make of that?
Michael Lofton:
You’re actually describing my situation. I don’t have any Eastern Catholic Churches nearby. The closest is four and a half hours away. So what I did is I built a home chapel and I reached out to an Eastern Catholic priest who is four and a half hours away and asked, “Would you be willing to come out and celebrate divine liturgies on occasion? And could I make this chapel an outreach of your parish?”
Michael Lofton:
And in fact, he accepted. And so, we have divine liturgies said at least once a month and people in the area who are interested in Byzantine liturgy, but being in communion with Rome, they come out, receive the sacraments and get to experience that liturgical life. So, that’s what I personally did. No, I’m not saying that everybody could go out and start a home chapel or an outreach, but odds are there’s something nearby.
Michael Lofton:
I’m kind of in a unique situation where I’m just in a dead zone. I’m in a desert father kind of situation where there’s not a whole lot available, but most people have some kind of access to an Eastern Catholic parish nearby. And I think that’s fine. I think that’s great. I encourage it. If you find that in the Byzantine church or maybe something like Maronite, if you find an Eastern Catholic Church speaks to you liturgically more than the Roman, that’s fine. That’s okay.
Michael Lofton:
Don’t look down on the Latin as if somehow it’s objectively deficient. I would say that’s a wrong attitude, but if you just say, “This speaks to me more liturgically, practically,” I don’t see anything wrong with that.
Cy Kellett:
No. And the thing is that even on the theological level, what you described before as objectively sinful, whatever kind of cautions you put around that as far as not judging the soul of an individual who makes this move objectively, you do a sinful thing when you sever communion between yourself and your family or whatever, and Rome objectively, that’s a sinful thing, but it’s not. You’re not doing that when you just move from the Latin Right to another right of the Catholic Church.
Michael Lofton:
That’s absolutely right. I mean, these other Catholic Churches that are part of this one Catholic Church. I think there’s what, at this point, 23, 24? They’re all fully Catholic, right? They’re all fully in communion with the Roman pontiff and so there’s nothing wrong with being a Latin Right christian who ends up going to an Eastern Catholic Church. Even if they don’t formally transfer their right, there’s nothing wrong with going and attending weekly.
Michael Lofton:
It’s perfectly fine, you’re still fully in communion with the Catholic Church. The problem is whenever you go to some kind of Bishop or jurisdiction, that’s not in the Catholic Church, because again, you’re then taking a step away from Christ and not listening to the authority that He put in place. It kind of reminds me of this, my children, every night, I have them clean the kitchen. One washes the dishes, one dries, one puts them away, one sweeps, one does the counter, right?
Michael Lofton:
They all have their tasks and I put the eldest in charge. The oldest one is going to tell the others, “Okay, you didn’t do a good job here, make sure to do this. You need to change that.” They’re going to tell the other ones what to do. And I put them in authority to do that. If one of the younger kids says, “I don’t want to listen to you. I don’t have to do that. I’m not going to rewash this dish,” or something like that.
Michael Lofton:
There’s a real sense in which they’re then disobeying me if they disobey them, because I put the oldest in authority. Same is true here, if you’re going to an Orthodox Church, you’re moving away from those shepherds that Christ has placed in authority. And so, there’s a very sense in which you’re then moving away from Christ Himself.
Michael Lofton:
That’s not to say that the Orthodox bishops don’t have apostolic succession. It’s not to say they don’t have valid sacraments. It’s not to say that they don’t have some kind of jurisdiction in their communities. I’m not saying that but what I am saying is, it is a step away from the perfect community that Christ established for us. And why would we ever want to walk away from that?
Cy Kellett:
Right. So that goes the other way as well however. So you’re… And I assume, the Ruthenian Byzantine, right? Is that your right-
Michael Lofton:
Right Byzantine Catholic Church, that’s right. Ruthenian yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So I assume that there is a kind of corresponding Orthodox Church. Would you invite someone to make the journey from that Orthodox Church into the Byzantine Catholic communion?
Michael Lofton:
Yeah. So that’s a really controversial thing because some Catholics are going to say, “No, stay where you’re at.” I don’t take that position. If you become convinced that the Catholic Church is the church established by Christ, you must act on your conscience. Now, if you aren’t convinced of that continue to struggle, continue to wrestle, continue to look into this but you might not be ready at that time.
Michael Lofton:
But if you become convinced of being in communion with the Roman pontiff and the necessity thereof, you must act on that. I don’t think that you can still stay in the Orthodox Church in good conscience. I think you’re acting against your conscience at that point and objectively speaking, you’re being disobedient to Christ. Again, that’s objectively. I’m not saying that you’re automatically damned-
Cy Kellett:
No.
Michael Lofton:
… there’s mitigating circumstances, but objectively speaking, it’s being disobedient.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. And I sometimes feel like we think we have the luxury of time with these things, and we probably don’t. You think about what it felt like the relationship between say Anglican Christianity and the Latin Right of the Catholic Church, what it felt like in the 1970s as far as the possibilities and what it feels like now, it didn’t get better.
Cy Kellett:
And so, we have to pray and it’s not a hopeless situation, God can heal anything, but I don’t think we should just act like there’s always time. Well, no, history’s moving pretty quick right now and it is a decisive moment. We have to make decisions.
Michael Lofton:
You know, personally, I wish I could have just taken 10 years to continue to discern through these issues, but practically I can’t do that. I have a family and I have to be able to commit to a particular community. I have to be able to guide them and shepherd my family and tell them, “This is the church that Christ established.” So ultimately we might not necessarily have the luxury of waiting 10 years.
Michael Lofton:
And as far as reunion, we might not have any luxury for waiting on reunion, because frankly, and I hate this because the thing that I want most is reunion between Catholics and Orthodox, I don’t think it’s going to happen anytime soon. I don’t think it’s going to happen in our lifetime and I’m seeing things that are taking things further away from that union. Now, there’s so there is making it closer, but I don’t think it’s going to happen in our lifetime. So we’re going to have to make a decision within this lifetime. We can’t just wait forever.
Cy Kellett:
Right. There is entropy in human affairs, just like there is in nature. And the only antidote to entropy is decision, you have to choose. And so, that moment is upon us in many, many ways. I really appreciate you discussing this with us. I want to just review real quick for people what you do and where they can find you, because now we are associated with one another. Which we’re going around bragging about that we’re associated with you, I don’t know what you’ll be doing.
Michael Lofton:
Same here.
Cy Kellett:
Okay, good.
Michael Lofton:
It’s more of my honor than it is for you I guarantee you because, again, I greatly benefited from Catholic Answers, especially at the time of my conversion and in several years, even afterwards. So I really appreciate y’all. So I would say the honor is on my end, but as far as what I’m working on, you can check out Reason and Theology at YouTube or go to reasonandtheology.com and you can see shows that we’re putting out there.
Michael Lofton:
It’s on, again, YouTube and podcasts, Stitcher, iTunes, all that good stuff. So maybe check out those two platforms for more information about what we’re doing. We have a lot of interviews, a lot of round tables, a lot of debates, and a lot of discussions on all kinds of matters related to theology.
Cy Kellett:
And who is St. Maximus the Confessor?
Michael Lofton:
Yeah. Well, St. Maximus the confessor was a Saint in the early church, and he’s actually a really important one for East and West unity because he spoke about issues involved with matters related to the East and the West and especially the Phil. So he’s kind of a good patron for those who wish for there to be unity between the Wast and West, but the St. Maximus the Confessor Institute is it’s also found on reasonandtheology.com you’ll see a tab on there and what it is I have different theologians and professors who will come on and deliver seminary level lectures for free on various topics.
Michael Lofton:
Maybe for example, Dr. John Joy has done a whole series on just the Magistarium or Louis Deson is working right now on basics of biblical Hebrew, and you can access these for free. So that’s what St. Maximus the Confessor Institute is. It’s free seminary level lectures.
Cy Kellett:
Well, I know for a fact that you’re a better person than I am, because I could never get my kids to do the dishes. So just on that level I’m very, very impressed with you, but-
Michael Lofton:
But I have to go downstairs every night and make sure that they do it right. So there’s that too.
Cy Kellett:
Mine are in their 20s, I still can’t get them to the issues even when they come over. Yeah. I don’t know what’s going on in their house, but at my house no one’s volunteering. I really appreciate you taking the time with us. Again, we’re just so delighted with the association. Thanks very, very much. We’re going to call on you more and more to do live shows on Catholic Answers live and do these focus episodes with us.
Michael Lofton:
That would be an honor.
Cy Kellett:
Michael Lofton, God bless you.
Michael Lofton:
Thank God, you too.
Cy Kellett:
One of the great blessings in life is family and one of the most difficult things to endure in life is family. Well, that’s true of church as well. Whatever community you find yourself in, community is the blessing and community is also the thing to be endured. It seems particularly true now, there is just so much to endure in order to stay a part of the Christian faith and in particular, to stay a part of the Catholic Church.
Cy Kellett:
There’s plenty of reasons to leave, there always will be, but now they seem particularly a cute doesn’t mean it’s time to leave. It is a thing to be endured sometimes we don’t know why Christ asks us to endure these things, but we can take up our cross, we can live our vocation. And in that way, maybe we make our contribution to it not being a thing for others to endure, but to be a thing, to bless others and to bless the whole world. Very grateful to Michael Lofton taking the time with us.
Cy Kellett:
I hope you will check out his podcast at Reason and Theology. And we’re just delighted that he’s going to be an affiliate here of us at Catholic Answers. If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can always send us an email focus@catholic.com. If you’re watching this on YouTube right now, we’re really trying to grow that YouTube channel, subscribe, subscribe, hit the bell, then you’ll be notified when new episodes are available.
Cy Kellett:
If you can support us financially, we would appreciate your support. We need your support in order to keep doing what we’re doing. Go to givecatholic.com. And if you’re listening on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or one of those other podcast services subscribe there as well, then you’ll know when new episodes are available. I’m Cy Kellett your host. Once again, a very warm welcome to Michael Lofton and we’ll see you next time right here at Catholic Answers Focus.