Church councils have shaped and formed the Faith for every living Christian, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. So what is the basis for the councils, and what do we make of their teaching. We get answers from Paul Senz, author of “Church Councils: 100 Questions and Answers.”
Cy Kellett:
Hello and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers Podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host, and this time we welcome Paul Senz, the author of Church Councils: 100 Questions and Answers, a new book from Catholic Answers Press. And if you’re going to be defending the Catholic faith, you’re going to have to understand and defend the councils. This is a very helpful book to do that. Paul is also the author of 100 Questions and Answers about Fatima, and that’s available from Ignatius Press. And Paul, thanks very much for being here with us.
Paul Senz:
Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to be here.
Cy Kellett:
First of all, how many councils are there? How many do we have?
Paul Senz:
So far, we’ve had 21 ecumenical councils.
Cy Kellett:
Okay, so 21 ecumenical councils. What’s ecumenical mean? Why do you call it an ecumenical council?
Paul Senz:
The ecumenical councils are usually what we mean when we’re talking about the church councils. There are different contexts where you might use the word council, a pastoral council, a finance council, whatever. But when we talk about the church councils, we’re typically talking about the ecumenical councils. And this is where all the bishops of the world, together in union with the Pope, meet to teach the Universal Church, typically in response to some need of the church, whether it’s doctrinal need, sometimes a more practical disciplinary, or pastoral need. But this is the universal worldwide body of the bishops, together with the Pope as their head, teaching the Universal Church.
Cy Kellett:
All right, are they ever dramatic? Like they break out into violence, or people start doing weird stuff? Or are all pretty… Do they all comport with the idea that this is the work of the Holy Spirit, and they’re done in peace and tranquility?
Paul Senz:
Not remotely. There’s almost always some drama. And in some of the councils in the past, there have been political intrigue, and kidnappings, and murders, and riots and things like that. And as far as whether or not everyone sees it as the work of the Holy Spirit, let me put it this way, a lot of the time the heretics, or whomever who the council is responding to certainly don’t feel that way.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right.
Paul Senz:
And it’s not kind of a one and done, the council has spoken and now the matter’s ended. The battle goes on.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So if you had to pick out of the 23, if I said to you, “You can take one of these, and you can get Mel Gibson to make a movie out of it,” which one would you take? Which council is the most cinematic of all the councils?
Paul Senz:
That’s a good question. Some of them have stories attached to them that may be apocryphal. So, if you can include the apocryphal stories, then possibly the first Council of Nicaea, because there’s this story from the first ecumenical council, the first Council of Nicaea in 325, which was called to combat the heresy of Arianism, where Arius, this priest in Alexandria was teaching that Jesus was not divine, but that He was created, not begotten. We say the opposite of that. He was the greatest creature, but He was still created. And there’s this story that is probably apocryphal, that St. Nicholas, Santa Claus himself went up and slapped Arius in the face for the heresy that he was teaching. So, I think may [inaudible 00:03:38].
Cy Kellett:
I actually think Mel Gibson made a movie where Santa Claus slaps people, so I think this is the Mel Gibson movie. Yes. I think you chose well. The first council of Nicaea. All right. So, over the last 500 years, a large segment of the Christian population has essentially rejected these councils as significant, or authoritative, or as works of the Holy Spirit that need to be attended to. So, we better start with first just getting at why should anyone, any Christian, invest these councils with an authority that requires obedience and attention?
Paul Senz:
So, the authority that these councils have comes from the authority that Christ gave to the apostles during His earthly ministry. The bishops, as the successors of the Apostles, carry on that teaching authority, that responsibility to protect the deposit of faith, and to teach the church the truth. So that’s where the authority of these councils lies. We’ve got Jesus told Peter to, “Feed my sheep.” And we’ve got the Pope, the successor of Peter as the head of the bishops, together with all the bishops around the world, teaching the church. That’s where that authority comes from, and that’s why we should care what they say. And as you alluded to, there are a lot of Christians around the world, Protestants and Orthodox, who don’t accept the authority of all the councils. They accept some, and that kind of gets into some more complicated historical questions.
Cy Kellett:
Right, like Nicaea is broadly accepted. You can’t say anything is universally accepted by Christians anymore, but Nicaea is broadly accepted. People are not arguing over Nicaea in general.
Paul Senz:
That’s right. Nicaea is actually… Being the first ecumenical council, Nicaea is accepted by basically every Christian around the world. But the reason for accepting it is a little bit different depending on who you ask.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Paul Senz:
I just described the Catholic reasons for accepting the authority of these councils. The Orthodox position would be the same, except with the different understanding of the role of the Pope. But as far as the bishops, as the successors of the apostles, having that teaching authority. The Protestant understanding of ecumenical councils… And by the way, they typically accept the first four, or the first seven, depending on who it is specifically that you’re speaking to. But, their reason for accepting them would be more accurately described as the bishops don’t have any particular authority, but we acknowledge that those councils have correct teaching, because it comports with our understanding of Scriptural teaching.
Cy Kellett:
Oh yeah.
Paul Senz:
So it’s not that the councils have authority, but they accept their teachings, because they acknowledge their teachings as Biblically sound.
Cy Kellett:
Sure. Okay.
Paul Senz:
So there’s a difference here.
Cy Kellett:
So it’s not that the council has authority, it’s that the teaching has authority because it’s taken to be orthodox, and wholesome Christian teaching.
Paul Senz:
That’s right. Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So you know it by the… It’s because the teaching is good that I accept it, not because it is a council of the Church, and Christ invested that Church with the authority to do these things.
Paul Senz:
That’s right. Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So, 23 councils. At what point do Catholics, do Christians in general, come to the realization that the council is part of the life of the church? I mean, when John the 23rd calls the Second Vatican Council, he clearly knows what he’s doing. He’s got a history to draw upon. “This is what we do, and we know all the parameters of it.” In Nicaea, there’s no kind of history to draw on like that. I mean, there is a history to draw on, but not similar in its scope. So, when does the church realize, “Oh, the council is part of how the church teaches?”
Paul Senz:
That’s a good question, and the understanding of the councils and how they’re called, who calls them, how they operate in the life of the church, does kind of develop over time.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Paul Senz:
I mean, there are even a couple of early examples where the council is now recognized as ecumenical, because it was later… Its teachings were later accepted and then kind of propagated to the Universal Church, even though at the time it was merely a local Senate of the East, kind of an Eastern Council for the Eastern Church. But then the Holy Father recognized a need for this teaching to be spread to the Church, and acknowledged its decrees as important, and then kind of propagated that as an ecumenical counsel. But with Nicaea, in 325, so this is nearly 300 years after the death of Jesus-
Cy Kellett:
But only a few years after the kind of tolerance, the Edict of…
Paul Senz:
Milan,
Cy Kellett:
Milan, yeah.
Paul Senz:
Yeah. And Constantine even played a role in calling the council, although his motivations were, I wouldn’t say exclusively, but maybe not even primarily, but he wasn’t only concerned with doctrine, he was also concerned with peace in the empire.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Paul Senz:
And there was a good deal of conflict going on over these teachings, and he wanted to get it straightened out. He wanted peace in the empire, and he certainly did also want the truth to be out there, but he didn’t necessarily have a horse in that race.
Cy Kellett:
Right. So, if you’re going to have… Well, it’s not an official Church yet, but if you’re going to have this big church be a welcome part of the Roman Empire, you can’t have it causing civil strife. So, he’s attempting to manage the civil strife by getting them to resolve doctrinal issues.
Paul Senz:
Right. And he did certainly want the truth to be taught, but it wasn’t necessarily important to him to be that specifically Jesus was acknowledged as the second person of the Trinity rather than a creature. Those particulars might not have been as important to him.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Paul Senz:
But even that early on, the emperor himself was involved in the convening of the councils.
Cy Kellett:
Now, there’s this kind of Constantinian prejudice that we get. Sometimes there’s a story of the church, it’s not a true story, it’s not rooted in history. But the story is that the church was a certain thing before Constantine, and she’s a radically different thing after Constantine. Even some people saying the sacramental life of the church, or the fact that there were bishops of particular places, and all that, is all post Constantinian, and it’s not. But when you start out by saying, “Okay, we’ve got the first council of the church,” it’s not called by a pope. It doesn’t emerge out of the local churches, it’s the emperor that calls it. I think that some people react to that, and I have heard people react to that, as these are delegitimizing facts. These don’t seem like the way the Church should be operating.
Paul Senz:
Well, and that’s something that you need to look at the bigger picture, the broader context.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Paul Senz:
Okay. So these doctrinal issues were causing civic and political strife. And so, the emperor had an interest in resolving those issues. So, he convened this council, and these were doctrinal issues that did need to be resolved. So, the bishops were more than happy to dive in and resolve them, and the Pope was more than happy to dive in and resolve them. This was not the emperor’s soul fiat declaring that things should be this way. The bishops and the Pope could certainly, if they wanted to, have said, “Figure it out yourself, this is a political problem, we don’t want to get involved.” But they didn’t.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I see.
Paul Senz:
This was addressed by the Pope and the bishops, and in a profound way, which as you know, one of the things that came from that first council was the first part of what we typically call the Nicene Creed, that most of us say mass every week, and it was completed at the next council, First Council of Constantinople.
Cy Kellett:
So, if I go over the broad sweep of the history of the church, then, because of the Roman Empire, and its successor kind of political realities, the modern idea of separation of church and state, it doesn’t exist there. So, if I look over the vast history of the church before the modern era, is there a lot of kings going to these councils, or even calling them? In other words, is this all mixed together, the politics, and the life of the church?
Paul Senz:
Yeah, there are many examples in the history of these 21 councils. There are many examples of times where emperors, or kings were involved with either the calling of the council, or in the reason for the council being called if it was called by the Pope, for example. So one of the issues that had to be addressed by a council was the issue of lay investiture. Is it the right of the pope, or the right of the king, the monarch, to invest bishops with their sign of office, and who is it that gives a bishop his authority? The political, secular ruler, or the pope? So, that was one of the things that ended up having to be addressed by a council.
So there really was, as you kind of alluded to, this fuzzy line between church and state, if there was any line at all. Sometimes it was one and the same, and that definitely caused some of the problems the councils had to address from time to time. But it also, in some cases, it helped to spread the teachings of the council, and to help get these points clarified, because the political rulers, and the sovereigns were able to have the power to spread these ideas around.
Cy Kellett:
So, we live in kind of a post conciliar period now. I mean, you would almost wish that it wasn’t, like you’d think, “Well, 50 years, maybe we could stop thinking,” but it’s not really. I mean, the Second Vatican Council, and its consequences, and the debate over it just continues to reverberate in every parish, virtually in every pew of the Catholic Church still, after all these years. What usually happens as far as the reception of councils? As you said, 21 of them, is this one unique, and there’s 20 that go a completely different direction? Or where does it fit as far as the years after?
Paul Senz:
Over time, it’s different from council to council in the details, but I think that big picture wise, it’s kind of the same story. Some of the details that are different, are speed of communications. So, the 50 years after a council in the eighth century, it might’ve taken that long to spread the word around, for people to even hear what was going on.
Cy Kellett:
Oh yeah.
Paul Senz:
If it even affected them. So you might have issues in issuing the decrees of the council in that sense.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Paul Senz:
And when it was a doctrinal issue that was being addressed, someone who staunchly teaches something about Jesus Christ, or about the Holy Spirit, or whatever, if the council says, “Well, that’s not right, and here’s why,” they’re not necessarily just going to go, “Oh my gosh, mea culpa, I amend my ways and I’ll start teaching right now.” It might be either a battle or even just a period of struggling with it. Okay. A great example, the Council of Trent was called in large part to address issues that had arisen in the Church that partially led to the Protestant Reformation, and a lot of the council’s work was also addressing the errors of the Protestant reformers. But as we know, that did not lead to the reformers and their followers then saying, “Wow, I didn’t realize I was wrong. I’m coming home to the Holy Mother Church.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Senz:
To this day, there’s a billion people who adhere to those teachings, and subsequent teachings. So unfortunately, it’s not as simple as, “Rome has spoken, the matter is settled.” In matters big and small. Sometimes with relatively simple disciplinary issues, pastoral questions, and big doctrinal questions, there are these ongoing debates, ongoing battles, and some of them, hundreds of years later, have yet to be fully resolved.
Cy Kellett:
I see your point. Yeah, that’s right. So Trent is not… Like if you were thinking about the reverberations after a council, Trent is still not universally accepted, so fair enough. Yeah, fair enough on that. Why are they in different places? I know we have the first Vatican Council, and then Second Vatican Council. So, for the last couple hundred years, two councils and they’ve both been in the same place, but they’re all over the place, these councils.
Paul Senz:
Yeah. Each council has its own logistical reason for being held in a particular place. Sometimes it has to do with the issue that’s being addressed, if the particular teaching maybe started being spread around, or a particular error started being spread in a certain place, so they might have the council there. Or, if the issues being addressed pertain especially to a particular area.
The Council of Trent, one of the reasons, if not the main reason that it was held in Trent was because that was seen as logistically straightforward for the Protestant reformers to travel to. Because the idea was that the reformers would be able to come to the council to address the issues in their teaching. None of them did, but that was part of the idea of holding it there. And now, I would be very surprised if any future council was held anywhere other than the Vatican, because logistically it would be so easy to be held there. They have huge spaces for the communal masses, and for the media and everything. They have the ability to house the bishops, and their advisors, and they have all the apparatus for media and everything. So, at this point, even just logistically, it makes the most sense to continue to be held in the Vatican. But, there could be other reasons for it to be held elsewhere.
Cy Kellett:
Sure. Well yeah, but certainly the logistics make it obvious. I’m not looking for another council. I’d like us to work a little more on getting the last one settled in, before we do another one, but that’s not up to me. Nobody has asked me that. But okay, so the councils that have been called, you said it’s kind of a developed… The theology has developed, as everything does in the Church, has developed. Many people point to what’s in the Acts of the Apostles as the Jerusalem Council, as the seed from which all of this plant has grown. Is that correct, or should I not think of it that way?
Paul Senz:
I think it’s fair to say that, yeah, the Acts of the Apostles, this Council of the Jerusalem, where the apostles themselves gathered to address an issue that was ongoing, really is kind of the, you said the seed, or you could also say that it’s kind of like a forerunner of the ecumenical council. And so, what makes that different from an ecumenical council is that this was the apostles themselves, whereas the ecumenical councils are the successors of the apostles, the bishops. So, when the apostles met, and they discussed, and prayed, and debated, and ultimately, Peter as their head, was the kind of final authority, and he helped resolve the conflict, and Peter had spoken. So, it did kind of set the stage, and provide the template sort of, for the ecumenical councils that would follow over the following 2000 years so far.
Cy Kellett:
All right. I was going to get to this later, but I’m going to ask it now, because you just gave me a segue to it. What’s the relationship between the papacy and the councils? I mean, in a certain sense, couldn’t John the 23rd just have written documents that said essentially what the Second Vatican Council said, and done it that way? What’s the relationship?
Paul Senz:
Well, the church teaches that the ecumenical council is kind of the supreme teaching body of the church, because you’ve got the successor of Peter as the head, but together with the whole body of bishops around the world, all of the successors of the apostles, with the successor of Peter as their head, teaching in unison, under the protection of the Holy Spirit. So, certainly the Pope’s teaching of John the 23rd had written in encyclicals, or whatever else, saying those things.
But there’s more to it than that because there’s also, this is not just what is said, but even in a kind of practical sense, how we get to that point, how we get to saying those things. So when you have months and years of study, and discussion, and debate among the bishops, with their theological advisors, and with input from whoever else, and praying on it, and then voting on it, and voting on changes to the documents, and really refining what it is that they’re teaching, that process kind of gives… I don’t know, for me, it’s kind of comforting to know that it’s not just on a whim. This is a long process, with a lot of people involved, under the protection of the Holy Spirit, to teach the church on these matters.
Cy Kellett:
Does Christ’s teaching that where two or more are gathered in His name, He’ll be in their midst kind of… It gives a… I’m not saying that that’s the foundation, particularly, of pastoral, or ecumenical councils, but it does set a pattern that doing things on our own is not the Christian way. It’s the Christian way is always a gathered thing. It’s always, at some level, it involves a gathering.
Paul Senz:
Yeah, that’s a good point. And then kind of piggybacking on that, when you consider that also the rhythm of a council’s operations is communal prayer, especially the mass, whether they’re praying together, they’re offering the holy sacrifice of the mass together, they’re praying their divine office together, that liturgical act of two or three, or many more than that gathered in Christ’s name, does give it that real liturgical, communal Christian weight.
Cy Kellett:
Were any of the councils… Could you call them failures? Or did they all achieve some elucidation of the life of the church, some improvement in the understanding of the church?
Paul Senz:
That’s a very good question. I think there could be some metric by which you might call some of them failures. For example, the councils immediately leading up to in the late 15th, early 16th centuries that were ostensibly meant to address certain issues in the life of the Church, that did not sufficiently address those issues, many of which issues then led to the Protestant reformation, you might consider those, in that sense, in retrospect. But even still, they did, as you say, they did still elucidate certain things in the life of the church, elaborate on church teaching to some extent.
Cy Kellett:
But they weren’t able to generate the energy of reform that came after the Protestant Reformation, where now you had the energy to do it. They failed in that sense, maybe.
Paul Senz:
Yeah, exactly. So by that metric, you could say that maybe there were failures, at least in that sense.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Paul Senz:
But then, everything that the Council of Trent did, some might say it was too little, too late, but it did so much good in explaining, and elaborating on the church’s teaching on so many levels, in producing catechisms, and producing new missals, and explaining the sacraments, and just everything. They touched on everything, because they needed to, because there was such a dramatic Catholic reform needed.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.,
Paul Senz:
Which unfortunately was not achieved sufficiently by the councils that proceeded it.
Cy Kellett:
When councils decide things, is it always by a majority vote? And what if you get a majority, but it’s just 50% plus one? That seems so almost arbitrary. I mean, it just seems so flimsy a basis. So, how’s the final decision made? Is it just a majority vote?
Paul Senz:
I think it’s such a long process of refining these documents, refining how things are phrased, voting paragraph by paragraph, and suggesting, and suggesting all those things. By the time you get to whether or not to finalize a document, and then the Pope really deciding whether or not to promulgate that document, by that point, you’re not going to have a thin margin like that. It’s a pretty big majority approval by the time you get to that point.
Cy Kellett:
I see. Okay, fair enough. So yeah, so the documents of the Second Vatican Council are overwhelmingly approved, not all equally overwhelmingly, but all overwhelmingly approved.
Paul Senz:
Right, yeah.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So what’s the relationship between a council, and a synod then? Because we get these gatherings of bishops called synods. Why isn’t that just a council?
Paul Senz:
The main difference between an ecumenical council and the synod of bishops is that, as I described, the ecumenical council is all the bishops of the world, together with the Pope, teaching the Universal Church on whatever matters they’re addressing in that council. Whereas the synod of bishops is more like an advisory body to the Pope. So, the synod will be called on whatever topic, and you’ve got the bishops and then again, whatever other advisors, and observers, and whoever else is invited to participate in various capacities. And the synod will produce a document at its end, that is then presented to the Pope, that’s more like advisory, or [inaudible 00:26:50] for reflection on that topic. And then usually, not always, the Pope will issue an apostolic exhortation following the synod. He will issue this document on that topic. So when they had a synod on the church in Africa, then after that, the Pope issued a posts synodal apostolic exhortation on that topic.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Paul Senz:
And when they had the synod on the family, and that kind of thing. So, the synod is more like an advisory body to the Pope, whereas the ecumenical council is this united teaching front.
Cy Kellett:
Well then, if say a council did approve a document, and it got a good, healthy vote in favor, and the Pope said, “No, I don’t agree with whatever this document says,” what is the status of the document, then?
Paul Senz:
I think, in a logistical, practical sense, it would be his no would be more like sent back for revisions.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, right.
Paul Senz:
Mark it up or something, and then say, “Keep working on it. I’m not promulgating this.” But again, the way the process goes, I’d be shocked to hear of that happening anytime soon.
Cy Kellett:
And just for those who may wonder, what’s the relationship between… I asked you the relationship between councils and popes, but what’s the relationship between councils and Scripture? Is it a higher authority than Scripture? Does it have authority over Scripture? Is it under the authority of Scripture? What’s the relationship between a council and Scripture?
Paul Senz:
Interesting question. Well, we know that the Church compiled Scripture, right? The Church discerned what is Scripture, what belongs in Scripture, what is divinely inspired, and what is not. And the authority of Scripture… Scripture is one of those two tiers. There’s Scripture and sacred tradition, right? So, because the magisterium is responsible for protecting the deposit of faith, which we find in sacred Scripture and sacred tradition, then of course any teaching from a council cannot contradict Scripture, does not have authority over Scripture. So, of course, no counsel could come out and say that, “Jesus was not born in Bethlehem,” when Jesus said, “My flesh is true food and My blood is true drink,” we now say that He meant it metaphorically, nothing like that.
Cy Kellett:
Oh yeah, you can’t. Right.
Paul Senz:
The church is responsible for protecting the deposit of the faith, sacred Scripture, and sacred tradition, and is certainly not… Does not have authority over and above it.
Cy Kellett:
I got two more questions for you. Can you hang out for two questions?
Paul Senz:
Sure. Absolutely.
Cy Kellett:
All right. “Anathema sit.” We see these words in many of the councils. I don’t believe those words appear anywhere in the Second Vatican Council. What does it mean, and why does the church use the phrase, “Anathema sit?”
Paul Senz:
So anathema is a Greek term, meaning placed on high, set aside. Typically, it used to be used to mean set aside for destruction.
Cy Kellett:
Okay,
Paul Senz:
Let me say, before I get any further anathematization, the act of anathemtizing, is no longer actually a formal penalty in church law. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, it was removed as a formal penalty. But we do see this word in the earlier councils in particular, but throughout the church councils, and we need to make sure we don’t think of it as… So having that linguistic pedigree of meaning, set apart for destruction, that kind of thing. It’s not a pronouncement of eternal damnation, or anything like that. It’s more like a legal term indicating a break in communion.
Cy Kellett:
“If you cross this line, you’re outside,” in other words.
Paul Senz:
Exactly. It’s more like that kind of thing. We see the Greek term, and its Hebrew equivalent from time to time in Scripture, even. It’s even in… St. Paul uses it a few times. But the purpose of it, the purpose of this anathematization, is to prompt repentance, and reconciliation in the one who has been excommunicated, who is experiencing this division, and this setting apart.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So, for example, if a council were to say, “If anyone were to claim baptism is not necessary for salvation,” and then they would use the words. “Anathema sit.”
Paul Senz:
Mm-hmm.
Cy Kellett:
And that means, “Let them be outside, let them be turned over?”
Paul Senz:
Yes. In that case, such an individual is not in line with the church’s teaching and is breaking that communion, and so they need to mend their ways and be reconciled.
Cy Kellett:
Gotcha. Okay.
Paul Senz:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
And so, the church doesn’t use that language now in Canon Law. It’s not in the most recent, so just probably in the modern age, that’s just not language that’s going to be effective in the way that it might’ve been, say in the period of Christendom.
Paul Senz:
Right. Especially because it’s such an unfamiliar term now.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, yeah. Right.
Paul Senz:
So, rather than using that term, and that kind of a penalty, it’s explained more descriptively.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, right.
Paul Senz:
They’re [inaudible 00:32:03] just kind of… [inaudible 00:32:05] What I said, rather than anathema sit.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, yeah. Well, nobody slaps anybody at these councils anymore, either, and Santa Claus did it once. So, the whole mood has changed, clearly, over time. My last question is just a more kind of general thing, which is, what does the fact that God has chosen this mode, which can be so messy, can be so mixed up with the impurities, and even evils of the world, to settle issues for the church, what do you take away from that about… I mean, some people are discouraged by that. Does that discourage you, or what meaning do you take from it?
Paul Senz:
It might discourage me in and of itself, until I reflect on it further. I mean, it’s no different to me than the fact that He… I mean, we’re humans. These are human vessels that He is using, so it’s going to be messy. Think about the apostles. Think about what happened during the passion. Everybody but John left. Peter denied him three times. Judas betrayed him. These earthen vessels, these human hands that our Lord is using to do His work are clumsy hands. They make messes.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Paul Senz:
But, He has also promised us that the Paraclete will counsel us, and will prevent the Church from teaching error when it comes to faith and morals. When it really comes down to it, we can trust that in spite of the messy process, and in spite of the messes that we all make, including the Pope and the Bishops, and anybody else, that the church will go on. It’s like that old story, again, which may be apocryphal. When Napoleon was bragging that he was going to destroy the Church, and the cardinal he was bragging to apparently said something to the effect of, “Well, we in the church have been trying to do that for 1800 years and haven’t succeeded. Neither will you.”
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. And he was right. Yeah, I do take comfort in that. Thank you very much. I also think it’s a lovely book, Church Councils: 100 Questions and Answers, and it’s from Ignatius Press. I might’ve said from Catholic Answers Press at some point, but I should have said Ignatius Press. The other book is Fatima: 100 Questions and Answers, and that’s available also from Ignatius Press. Paul Senz is the author. He writes for us, and various other Catholic outlets, and you’ll see them there, and we’re awful glad you came by and did this with us. Thanks for taking the time to talk about Church councils with us.
Paul Senz:
My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
Cy Kellett:
Thank you to our listeners, as well. We appreciate that you take the time. If you want to send us a note, focus@catholic.com, send us a message there. Wherever you’re listening, if you’d give us that five stars, and a few nice words, that will help to grow the podcast. And if you’d like to support us financially, you can do so. We’d certainly love it if you would. You just go to givecatholic.com, and leave whatever your donation is there, givecatholic.com, help us pay the light bill. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. I’m awful glad I got to have this chance to be with you. We’ll see you next time, God willing, right here, on Catholic Answers’ Focus.