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Why did the Church end up in such a bitter struggle against the Cathars, and how did that struggle play out? Our three-part dive into the various Catholic inquisitions continues as we ask Catholic Answers President Chris Check what really happened in the Medieval Inquisition.
How bad was the Medieval Inquisition? Chris Check is next.
Cy Kellett:
Hello, and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers Podcast for living, understanding, and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host, and the Medieval Inquisition is the one that started it all. Before we talk about the Spanish Inquisition, the Roman Inquisition, or anything else, that’s called an Inquisition in the history of the Catholic Church, we thought it best to go back to the beginning. What was the first Inquisition like? Who were the people who were involved and how did all of that turn out?
Chris Check, our president, the president here of Catholic Answers, and a historian in his own right is here to dig in with us. Who were the Albigensians, the Cathars, and what was all of this Medieval Inquisition about and how did it give birth to something that continues even to this day? The Catholic practice of Inquisitions. Here’s Chris Check.
Chris Check, President of Catholic Answers, thank you for returning to do another conversation about the Inquisitions.
Chris Check:
Cy, thank you for having me back. People are going to start to have doubts about your judgment.
Cy Kellett:
Well, I think those doubts are-
Chris Check:
They’re already extant?
Cy Kellett:
They’re widespread on the internet. Let me reset a little bit-
Chris Check:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
… so that the person who either didn’t hear the first episode or does not fully recall it, I’ll do the … On our last episode, where we left things was in the period often called the medieval period or the Middle Ages, which you refer to as the Christian age, which I refer to as Christendom, because it’s an age that is entirely … The mindset is permeated by Christ and a hierarchical view of creation that comes from the Jewish and Christian idea of God made it, then God has His angels and His people, and among people there are hierarchies and you fit in there.
Chris Check:
And in addition to that, Cy, the secular order is bound up in this reality. So this thing that you call Christendom, which was a real thing, was Christian and it was Hellenic in thought, and it was Roman in its political order. And those things are united. But the secular world as we talked, or the church and state to use the modern language, were separate in the sense of their functions but not in principles.
Cy Kellett:
There we go. Okay. Yeah. So, in this society that the Inquisition develops. It’s a development of a mind, a mind set in which the salvation of souls is what everything is for.
Chris Check:
Because heresy is a threat to the common good, to the individual soul and his salvation, but to the communio, to the common good as well.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. And so along come these … We talked then about the Albigensians in the … Okay, you got to help me with my centuries. 13th Century?
Chris Check:
Yeah, 12th, starting in the 12th.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Chris Check:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
The Albigensians come, and they’re very odd people and-
Chris Check:
Yeah, or the Cathars.
Cy Kellett:
The Cathars, and they-
Chris Check:
And I should clarify, because I said pure doctrine. Really, the way it should be described as Cathar katharos, the Greek, meaning pure. So this was the state of life toward which they believed that they were proceeding once they had thrown off the wickedness of the material world.
So they had the two gods of the spiritual world and the material world, and the one was good and the other was not. And then, of course, this led to all kinds of, not just heresies, but violent political manifestations, vandalism of churches, obscene rites, infanticide, et cetera.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Right. And so, we don’t take the … History can be told without the pretense that everyone that does everything in history is morally equal. They are not. And here, we have a society that is trying to live a Christian faith and into it comes this nasty, really awful body of thought, which is rooted in profound untruths.
Chris Check:
It is, and it manifests itself violently, and then the reaction to it … And I think this is something very important to underscore about the Inquisition, the Medieval Inquisition, and the Inquisition in Spain. The reaction to the bad behavior of the Cathars first comes from the faithful in a form of what we would today called vigilante justice or mob justice.
So by the time the Church looks at the problem … Or, at the moment the Church is looking at the problem, she is saying, “Yes, on the one hand, we want to find out who the heretics are and who are not so that we can bring them back, so they may be saved as well, and so the errors that they’re sharing or preaching don’t infect others.” But also, “We want to protect the innocent from the behavior of the Catholic mob,” because it’s from this age, and whether it was actually said or not is a doubtful question, but you know, “Kill them all. God will know His own,” allegedly, one of the princes of Languedoc said.
Cy Kellett:
I’ve actually heard Marines say that.
Chris Check:
Right? Well, it’s actually not a good thing to say.
Cy Kellett:
No.
Chris Check:
It is not. Right? But it’s been attributed to the Pope, even. Of course, the Pope didn’t say that, but nonetheless, there was very much a mob justice or a vigilante justice against the Cathars.
So the Church says, “Sure, we want to know who the heretics are, but we want to know who the heretics are not and protect them from the wicked accesses of the mob.” Does that make sense?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Chris Check:
So we’re trying to protect the innocence as well as identify who the guilty are, and this is … One more thing. I’m sorry to go on.
Cy Kellett:
No.
Chris Check:
And then this is how the Inquisition develops organically. And then, I use that word organically to make the point also, the Church didn’t say, “Okay, you know what? Look at this. We need an Inquisition, and then now we established this permanent institution, this permanent body.”
Cy Kellett:
Oh, I see.
Chris Check:
It develops organically and enemies … Or, how can I say this? Sympathetic as well as hostile historians will both acknowledge that the Church, when she begins this process that we today called the Medieval Inquisition, she was not thinking of establishing a permanent institution. She was addressing a particular crisis in the history and in a particular location in the church. Is that helpful?
Cy Kellett:
It is. And if I could take a contemporary thing. After the Apartheid period in South Africa, you get these Truth Commissions, which have … I think they, among many people, have a good reputation, although I’m sure it’s a mixed bag. Everything human is. But what I’m getting at is we have to address a particular moment in history in a way that doesn’t just kill all the white people, or doesn’t just brush this all under the rug. We need a tool here.
So, maybe the comparison is not apt, but I always try to find, especially with the Inquisition and the Crusades and stuff, secular examples of similar undertakings, so that secular people will not see this as completely foreign, but as, this is what has to happen sometimes. You have a Truth Committee, you have a 9/11 Commission. You have things that we … How are we going to know who’s the terrorist among us and who’s not the terrorist among us?
Chris Check:
Right. There have been, to use an analogy that we talked about in the first episode of this podcast, there have been people cheating in Major League Baseball, so now we’re going to have Congressional hearings.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Chris Check:
Now, I happen to think Congress should have nothing to do with Major League Baseball, but nonetheless. But it is this kind of thing.
And then, the very important point to underscore here, Cy, is that this happened at a particular moment in history, and these were the events and the understandings of people in the way that they understood the world that led to this. It didn’t happen in a vacuum, in a cultural vacuum, in a historical or even geographic vacuum, and that is why it is so dangerous and erroneous, almost always erroneous, to try to interpret events in history through the lens of dominate ideologies of 2021.
Cy Kellett:
Okay. So, how did the Medieval Inquisition, then, operate? What was it?
Chris Check:
Well, the Church was fortunate because in 1216, there was founded this order called the Dominicans, founded by we call them Dominicans, or OP, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Order preachers.
Chris Check:
Order preachers.
Cy Kellett:
But Dominic, the founder.
Chris Check:
Sure. And these men were, and in fact still are … I mean, in the main of the orders operating the church today still quite sound defenders of doctrine and good theologians. That Dominican school in-
Cy Kellett:
Washington.
Chris Check:
Yeah, in Washington DC, that’s probably the best theology school in the country.
Cy Kellett:
Catholic Answers School of Apologetics is pretty good.
Chris Check:
Yes, it’s true. We do draw some distinctions between apologetics and theology.
Cy Kellett:
That’s for Donna, our marketing director. Donna, I mentioned the school of apologetics.
Chris Check:
Very good. I’m sure she’ll be grateful to you. So, the church had, if you will, at the ready, men, religious, who were formed for this. And again, even historians who are generally hostile to the Inquisition, the Medieval Inquisition, like Charles Lea, for example, who wrote the first big history of the thing, they say …
Look, it’s a fact. The Dominicans were uniquely qualified for this work because of their theological training, but also because they were exceptional men, Cy. They were men of exceptional virtue who were sufficiently detached from the immediate argument or the personalities involved. And because of the quality of their virtue, they made good judges. Even, like I say, Charles Lea is a good example, but other historians who are hostile to the Inquisition acknowledged this about the Dominicans. They were very good at what they did because of the quality of their formation.
Cy Kellett:
If I could ask you a practical question, who sets up an inquisition? Is it the diocese and bishop of the local place, or is it the Pope sets up an inquisition? So, you said that the Albigensians, the Cathars are Southern France/Northern Italy kind of phenomenon. Is it the local diocese? Is that-
Chris Check:
Yeah, so the bishop is going to say, “I believe that I’ve got a hotbed of heresy, or heresy is manifesting itself in this way in my diocese.” He may write to Rome. He may write to the Dominican order and say, “Can we get a team of inquisitors in here?”
And then, in fact, they would come in and they would declare what they called a period of grace.
Cy Kellett:
This, I love.
Chris Check:
Or, excuse me, a term of grace. And, in fact, I have not found proof of this, but I suspect that our present day expression, “Grace period,” comes from this.
Cy Kellett:
Comes from this, yeah.
Chris Check:
Comes from this. So, during this term of grace, and I’m just going to kind of go super quick here, or summarize, people are permitted to come forward and say, “You know what? I have been spreading these heresies.” And if they do make this admission, then they are given some … If they make it privately, they’re given some kind of private penance, but if they have been publicly preaching heresy, then they are given a public penance.
And why? This stands to reason because they need to let the world know that they’ve been corrected and that they no longer are advocating these heresies.
Cy Kellett:
So, this is something that, I supposed, as a Christian, we want to say that there are profoundly Christian elements to this that we don’t want to disown, among them just fess up and we’ll all get beyond this. This is very much in the tradition of forgiveness of the Church. And it’s not to say this is okay, but it is to say, we’re not here to kill anybody. We’re not here to torture anybody.
Chris Check:
Yeah. “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more,” as our Lord puts it.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah. Okay. So, now-
Chris Check:
The problem becomes-
Cy Kellett:
If I don’t take advantage of the term of grace.
Chris Check:
That’s right. So, to go back to our first episode, now you are a threat to the common good, because you are threatening the salvation of the people around you. So now they have to be examined.
And the principles that … Or, the methods, I should say that the inquisitors use go back to Roman law, the age of Augustus in particular, probably, so the early part of the Roman Empire. And as the Inquisition develops over time, these methods become increasingly improved, refined and improved. They base themselves on scriptural warrant.
For example, in the Old and the Mew Testament, both Moses and St. Peter say … Excuse me, Moses and St. Paul say, “You need multiple witnesses. No one is going to be condemned on the testimony of one witness.” So multiple witnesses are required. And other methods of inquiry that come from Roman law are applied, and over time manuals are developed. Bernard Gui writes one of the big ones and he-
Cy Kellett:
Yeah, that’s me.
Chris Check:
Yeah. I’m sorry.
Cy Kellett:
I’m going to stop dinging, sorry.
Chris Check:
I was like, [inaudible 00:15:08] my response. Yeah.
So, in Bernard Gui’s manual he says if the inquisitor’s cellphone continues to go off …
Cy Kellett:
Then, where’s the thumb screw?
Chris Check:
Yes, that’s right. Exactly. So, manuals are developed, and as inquisitions take place … Inquiry, really, it’s the same root. As these cross-examinations, as these inquiries take place, then the Dominicans writing these manuals say, “Watch for this. This is the way the heretic is going to try to obfuscate. He’s going to answer a question with a question. He’s not going to give you a direct answer. Be on the lookout for this kind of thing.”
So the manuals become more sophisticated over time. And eventually, what you get, Cy, is far from being this sort of cruel institution. You get the most sophisticated court of the period, including all the secular courts, because of the care that these Dominicans put in thought, that these really first-rate minds and good souls put into the work.
Cy Kellett:
Let me ask you a straight-up question then. Do you think Jesus would want us to torture other people?
Chris Check:
I don’t.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Chris Check:
And in fact … And in my course, I take up the question of torture at length. And so, that’s another reason to buy the course, Donna.
Cy Kellett:
Oh! Catholic Answers School of Apologetics available now at Shop.Catholic.com.
Chris Check:
Or schoolofapologetics.com. Right.
So, I take up the question of torture. But one thing we can say for sure … Well, there’s a number of things we can say. We can say that for the first 30 years of the Medieval Inquisition, we don’t see torture at all. There are even early inquisitors, a colleague of Gui’s, Nicholas Eymerich, he’s of the opinion and says, “So, confessions received under torture are of dubious merit.”
We see this much later, by the way, in the Trail of the Templars and the suppression of the Templars. These men were brutally tortured, and they confessed to all kinds of things, including one of them … So, this is in 14th century, but confessed to killed God, for example, which [crosstalk 00:17:34].
Cy Kellett:
Good for you, man. That’s impressive! And that was all just so the French crown could take all their money, right?
Chris Check:
Philip the Fair. I think so. I think it was not a good event. I talk about that in my Crusades course, which is in production now.
But torture was used in some rare circumstances. In time, even the methods associated with this become quite refined. It required the permission of the local ordinary. A doctor had to be present. No threat to life or limb. It couldn’t be applied for more than a 15 minute period. Things of this nature. If a confession was received under torture, then 24 hours later, you would have to get the confession repeated. So, things of this nature.
So it isn’t to say that the Church, I think, in her thinking has developed … But by the way, torture was common. It was in the secular courts. It came from Roman practices. It was completely common. In fact, it was used less likely in the ecclesial courts of the Inquisition, and there are examples of men who were accused of some kind of secular crime committing one form of blasphemy or another, so that they could get their cases transferred to the ecclesial courts, which had a reputation for mercy.
Cy Kellett:
But it’s also the case that as they tried to make the tortures not a threat to life and limb and tried to make them … I may … to this degree, you could use this word, “Safe,” so to speak, and less gruesome, they ended up with basically what you would call waterboarding.
Chris Check:
Well, we still use torture. In fact, I talk about this, Cy. We tend to think of … Oh, waterboarding’s not torture, some people say. Of course it’s torture! Of course-
Cy Kellett:
If you do it to me, it’s torture. I don’t know what it is if they do it to you, but you do it to me, it’s torture.
Chris Check:
Yeah, yeah. And we’re getting far afield here, but the Church has been explicit now in her opinion with respect to torture. But these things, they develop over time, and this was a common practice, and with respect to torture, if the Inquisition should be remember for anything in this regard, it should be that it was applied with much better judgment and far less frequently than in the secular courts.
Cy Kellett:
So, let me ask you about this, then. Was this Medieval Inquisition … Was it successful? Did it do what it set out to do, which was essentially to root out this false religion so that the coherence of society built on the truth about Christ, that project could continue? Was it successful?
Chris Check:
Let me go back to the torture thing because I want to give this quote from the Catechism currently. “Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity.” So, the Church has repudiated this practice now.
But to get to your … And I would refer people to that paragraph: 2297 in the Catechism.
To get to your question, however, it was very successful. It was very successful in rooting our heresy and in restoring peace to southern France and the places of northern Italy where this heresy was … What’s the word I’m looking for here?
Cy Kellett:
I don’t know, where it bloomed?
Chris Check:
Well, that’s the problem, Cy. I was trying think, you don’t really want to say heresy bloomed here because there was this conflagration of heresy. It was! It was very successful.
And the [inaudible 00:21:37] … The Dominicans, we were talking about on the previous episode, the Dominicans liked to joke, “Well, when was the last time you saw a Albigensian?”
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Chris Check:
So, no. It was quite successful, and it was so successful in its methods that when it was needed again in Spain, the methods and the Dominicans were called up again.
Cy Kellett:
So, give us the … If you could, Chris, a kind of judgment on the Medieval Inquisitions. How would a Catholic today come to settle this issue in one’s mind about what was this, and how should I be thinking of it as someone who is … I mean, across time, these Dominicans are our spiritual fathers, are our brothers in the faith. So, this is not something that we’re separated from. We are in a communion with these. How should we think about this as a mark on this everlasting communion called the Catholic Church?
Chris Check:
Well, some of them are saints. I think of Peter Martyr, Peter or Verona, who had a cleaver put through his head by a Cathar. So, they are part of that patrimony of the Church, certainly.
I think the best way for a Catholic to think about this is the thread that I have through the whole course and that we’ve been talking about in each of these episodes, there was a period in history when Christians understood that they were on their way to union with God or not, and this was the most important thing in their lives, far and above, and that things that stood in the way of it were actually more important. Losing your soul was far worse than losing your life, and it was in light of this belief that these practices and the Medieval Inquisition came to be.
And so, I don’t think it’s something that Catholics need to apologize for. We can point and say, “These methods of torture probably didn’t contribute, or if they did, not as much as we might think,” or we can say, “This man was gleeful in torturing.” Although, I don’t really think that there are necessary examples of that. But if we could find it, we could say, “Okay, well that isn’t Christian behavior,” but the institution in the main, it was a good thing.
Cy Kellett:
And how was the Church different after this medieval period of Inquisition than before? Are there new offices? Now, is it a permanent thing? Like you said, it didn’t start out as a permanent thing, but by this period in the … When would you say? Like, in the late 13th century, we’re talking about the Cathars are mostly …
Chris Check:
Yeah. Or mid-late-12th. But it is in the 13th century that most of the Medieval Inquisition is going on.
Cy Kellett:
But it’s over at-
Chris Check:
When is Joan of Arc tried? That’s in the 15th century.
Cy Kellett:
In the 15th century, yeah.
Chris Check:
Yeah.
Cy Kellett:
And then the Waldensians?
Chris Check:
Yeah. So, these are examples … In fact, I think of Joan of Arc as an example when the very, by that point, extremely careful methods of the Inquisition were established and set down, when these are abused as they were in the case of Joan of Arc-
Cy Kellett:
Oh, right.
Chris Check:
She was denied things. Recourse to Rome, for example, counsel.
Cy Kellett:
So, is this one of the legacies of the Medieval Inquisition, is a highly-developed clerical court system in which you’re supposed to get certain rights? Joan didn’t get them.
Chris Check:
No, she did not. But after her death and her rehabilitation, she did. So that’s an example when the methods of the Inquisition in the courts were not properly followed, then there would be a miscarriage of justice, but when they were, as in the case of a rehabilitation … Now, by that point, Joan was dead, but we know she was with our Lord in heaven. But nonetheless, when they were in her rehabilitation, then justice was delivered.
So I would say the legacy is … It’s certainly obvious in the church because, and we’ll talk in the next section about this, it comes up again in Spain. And then by that point, also, the Roman Inquisition is established later during that period, and becomes the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as we were talking about. But I also think that some of the careful methods of the Inquisition developed in the Middle Ages find expression now in secular courts, in Western republics.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, yeah. All that. However, the propaganda value is enormous for those who are opponents of the Church. You just have to say the word, “Inquisition,” or … That brings me to a question I didn’t want to … But, first of all, say something about the propaganda value of the …
Chris Check:
It’s very, very difficult to overcome. I think Christians need to accept that to a degree, Catholics need to accept that to a degree. It is very, very difficult to overcome unless your interlocutor, or whomever it is you’re having the conversation, is willing to sit down with you and go over the origins and … Well, the facts to be sure, but why this happened at this time in history and how men understood the world.
But if we’re going to just try to interpret it through our own dominant ideologies of today, it’s a losing conversation.
Cy Kellett:
Well, let me-
Chris Check:
I don’t mean to throw in the towel on it, Cy. I actually just want to spare Catholics the frustration of banging your head against the wall if you’re going to try to have a conversation with the Inquisition about somebody who really isn’t interested in knowing the story.
Cy Kellett:
No, no. And just wants to mark you with that brand.
Chris Check:
Right. Yes, I think it’s probably poor form to wear that apron that you see when you’re grilling, “I’d rather be roasting heretics,” or something like that. I’m not in favor of that. There was a Catholic magazine that hawked those. That doesn’t help the case.
Cy Kellett:
No. And we’re not talking about Albigensians. We’re talking about Protestants. No! I’m only … It’s a joke. It’s a little joke.
Chris Check:
But people were put to death, and they were burned, but again, this was a common means of execution in this period. We still, by the way, put people to death for capital crimes.
Cy Kellett:
We put people in horrible, unspeakable situations for the rest of their life.
Chris Check:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
I mean, it’s a question of who’s better by the evidence of how our society’s run. Just remember what’s going on in prisons all around the world today.
Chris Check:
Or we execute innocent babies in the womb. We are not an age to judge other ages, for goodness sake.
Cy Kellett:
No, it’s amazing that we do. But there is one thing that I think is a real black mark on the Catholic Church and on the medieval people, and that is the iron maiden. The invention of this … What? Why are you laughing at me?
Chris Check:
Well …
Cy Kellett:
To put people inside of a box with knives that would go into them, it’s horrific to think about.
Chris Check:
I know. We should get one here at Catholic Answers as kind of a staff discipline thing.
Cy Kellett:
So, tell me the truth about the iron maiden.
Chris Check:
It’s an utter fabrication.
Cy Kellett:
It didn’t exist?
Chris Check:
No, and I’m not even sure the tech … I mean, to hear this thing described. And by the way, even in the description of it, you are … There’s several versions, so we don’t even see this expression, “iron maiden,” until some time in the 1800s.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Well, a lot of these were invented for 1800s museums, these medieval torture-
Chris Check:
They were.
Cy Kellett:
And this is the truth. We’re not trying to hide anything. They would have medieval torture instruments-
Chris Check:
Which turned out not to have existed in the Middle Ages.
Cy Kellett:
But they just invented them.
Chris Check:
Yes.
Cy Kellett:
They just put them out there in their wax museum, or whatever P.T. Barnum was doing.
Chris Check:
Right, right. But even if … Honestly, if a smart person thinks about this for a moment, there are a couple of versions of this.
One is where you would be allured by this beautiful statue, and of course not … No, it was a statue. Okay. Come on. So anyway. And then, when you embraced it, then the trap would spring, and then you would be filled with knives. It’s like, the people of the Middle Ages either were extremely smart to design this device-
Cy Kellett:
Man, could they make good statues!
Chris Check:
… and by the way, extremely dumb to fall for it. So, it just doesn’t bear any scrutiny, but yeah, most of these things are fabrications of the imaginations of British writers who hate the Spanish or hate the Catholic Church.
Cy Kellett:
Right. Or people who just want to have a good museum, sell tickets to a museum.
Chris Check:
Yeah, yeah. But we could put one in the lobby at Catholic Answers.
Cy Kellett:
All right. I’m willing. Again, as long as it’s not used on me. Chris Check, president of Catholic Answers, thank you.
Chris Check:
Looking forward to the next one, Cy.
Cy Kellett:
On the Spanish Inquisition.
Chris Check:
Okay. Glory.
Cy Kellett:
Just want to let you know before we go this time that all of this material we’re covering in these three episodes on the Inquisition with our president, Chris Check, comes from a course he did for the Catholic Answers School of Apologetics. It’s called Making Sense of the Inquisition, and I want to recommend it to you. Maybe you’ve enjoyed these, you want to take the course and get a deeper understanding of the Inquisition.
We’ve got a whole bunch of courses over at the Catholic Answers School of Apologetics, from evidence for Catholic moral teaching, evidence for the Church, beginning apologetics, you can start there if you want, creation out of nothing. And they’re adding new episodes all the time.
Schoolofapologetics.com is where you go to find out all about it. Schoolofapologetics.com. They are not expensive courses, but they are university-level courses. There’s no deadlines. You don’t have to get any papers in, but it’s a university-level presentation of explaining and defending the Catholic faith in its various parts.
So let me recommend to you again, Making Sense of the Inquisition, Chris Check’s course out now at the School of Apologetics. Just go to schoolofapologetics.com. Don’t forget, we love to hear from you. If you have an idea for a future episode, or maybe you want to comment on an episode you’ve already watched or listen to focus@catholic.com is our email address. Focus@catholic.com.
If you’re watching on YouTube, just go right down below here and like and subscribe. The more people like and subscribe to it, the better it is for us. It grows it. It really helps to grow the podcast. It also helps us grow the podcast if you’ll, when you’re listening, if you’re someone who listens on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, or any other of the podcast services you do, just give us that five star review. Give us a few comments maybe about why you like the podcast. That really helps to grow the podcast.
If you can support us financially, we’ll be deeply grateful for that. Just go to givecatholic.com. Givecatholic.com. Thanks for joining us. I’m Cy Kellett, your host. We’ll see you next time, God-willing, right here on Catholic Answers Focus.