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The author of Purgatory Is for Real, Karlo Broussard, explains the reality of indulgences and why they are effective in paying off debts.
What is the deal with indulgences? Karlo Broussard is next.
Cy Kellett:
Hello, and welcome to Focus, the Catholic Answers podcast for living, understanding and defending your Catholic faith. I’m Cy Kellett, your host.
One of the things that comes with being Catholic is the understanding that there are many real and true and existing things. There are aspects of reality that are not obvious to our seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling, and are not accessible even to our science. They are revealed to us. Among the hardest for people to accept is the idea of indulgences. In part, it’s certainly true that this is because there’s been a 500-year war on indulgences, starting with Martin Luther’s 95 theses on the Bitburg Church door, too.
Today there has been within Christianity a war on indulgences. Indulgences are real. It doesn’t matter how long the war goes on or how long we fight against it. They will continue to be a real part of reality, and particularly of the reality of the Christian faith. So we invited Karlo Broussard to come in and tell us about indulgences and particularly how do we get them, how do they work. Well, let’s check in with Karlo.
Indulge me, Karlo.
Karlo Broussard:
That was very clever, brother.
Cy Kellett:
No, thank you. Okay, indulgences. This is how you know you’re a serious Catholic. You believe in indulgences, because I think this has become just people will be like or… Yeah, I think it’s indulgences or the infallibility of the Pope, or the two marks of the person who’s gone all the way. I’m fully in with the Catholics, because indulgences have a bad name.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah, they do, because of certain corrupt practices that were surrounding indulgences throughout the history of the church, or you had some “selling indulgences” where you were abusing the alms giving, right, which can be an act of charity that the church judges to be an indulgence, so under certain conditions. So you had some in the history of the church who were corrupt and abusing that act of charity namely alms giving. So I think it’s important to take a step back and try to articulate exactly what indulgences are and what is the evidence for them in scripture.
So I think we can start, Cy, with paragraph 1471, the catechism that gives us a great summary of what an indulgence is. It states this, “An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal,” and I emphasize temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, okay? So we’re not talking about eternal debt of punishment. We’re talking about temporal punishment. We’re not even talking about the guilt of sin because that’s already taken care of, “which the faithful Christian who has duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the church, which has the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” That’s a mouthful.
Cy Kellett:
That’s a lot. It’s so much, yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
That summary of what an indulgence is, is based upon certain principles. There are certain principles involved that when taken together, you have deduction of indulgences. So principle one is that a Christian after initial justification still incurs the debt of temporal punishment due to sin. If you don’t believe that a justified Christian can incur temporal debt of punishment due to past forgiven sin, you’re not going to believe in an indulgence.
Cy Kellett:
I know myself though, Karlo, I do in, I mean, how could you know yourself and not know you’ve done things that need-
Karlo Broussard:
Well, it’s one thing to know that you’ve done things and then it’s another thing to say you incur a debt of temporal punishment. There is a suffering due to you on account of that sin. For some Protestants and their particular views of salvation justification, they’ll say that’s not possible because Jesus already took care of all of that, that one time on the cross and that was entirely applied to you and your initial justification, such that there is no more suffering due to you for your sin. In other words, there’s no more debt of punishment due to you whatsoever, whether eternal or temporal. So you would have to justify the Catholic claim that an initially justified Christian subsequent to that initial stage of justification for many Christians is baptism, right, which includes faith for adults subsequent to that sinning and incurring the debt of temporal punishment. So that’s the principle involved.
Second principle that there is a treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. In other words that whenever… So we take Christ and the value of his sacrifice on the cross to satisfy and expiate for the sins of the world, but also that his people, the members of his body, Christians, can undergo suffering in a voluntary way inspired by moved by charity that has a satisfactory value. The collection of that value of the acts of the saints throughout the history of the church, in combination with the infinite satisfactory value of Jesus’ death on the cross, constitutes this treasury of the satisfaction of Christ and the saints, this treasury of satisfactory merits.
Cy Kellett:
That one is not intuitive. That has to be revealed to you. Somebody has to tell you that because you wouldn’t know-
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right, that’s right. We’re going to have to look to see if there’s anything in scripture that would reveal that to us, or at least in sacred tradition as well for us as Catholics. So that’s the second principle.
Then the third principle that the church is able to dispense to the faithful on earth, the satisfactory value of the good works performed by the saints in this life. So those are the three essential principles that are sort of undergirding this catechism summary of the doctrine of indulgence.
Cy Kellett:
Well, let’s start with principle number one that a Christian after initial justification still incurs a debt of temporal punishment due to sin.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah, and the key text that I think we can turn to, Cy, which I articulate in my book Purgatories for Real, is Hebrews chapter 12, verses five through six. Verse five, it talks about how the Lord disciplines his children, right? Verse six says even more explicitly, “For the Lord disciplines him whom he punished, whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Now notice every son that refers to a Christian, so it’s an individual who’s already initially justified, and God chastises the Christian, his son, his child. The Greek word for chastise is mastigoo, and it means to punish severely even with the application of whipping. So entangled or embodied in this word mastigoo implies the imposing of suffering on account of wrongdoing. That’s the essence of punishment. So God punishes justified Christians.
Now if the Bible is revealing to us that God is going to inflict suffering upon his children, that necessarily implies that he’s inflicting suffering upon his children due to past sins.
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
In other words, there must be a debt.
Cy Kellett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Karlo Broussard:
There must be a suffering due to the Christian in order for God to justly impose suffering upon his child. In other words, you have a cruel God, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes, yes.
Karlo Broussard:
So that God imposes suffering upon his children necessarily entails there is a suffering due to his child, which necessarily entails that there was some wrong committed that incurs that debt of suffering, that debt of punishment. You see?
Now we know that this debt of punishment is temporal punishment, because the scripture reveals here that this is a son of God. This is a justified Christian, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
So this is not a debt of eternal punishment otherwise, they wouldn’t be a Christian, right? They would be void of sanctifying grace, void of the love of God dwelling within the heart, Roman 5:5. So this is a debt of temporal punishment that’s due to a Christian, and God imposes at times suffering upon his children to discharge that debt of temporal punishment. So this is what the author of Hebrews is getting at, god chastises every son whom he receives.
Now it’s important to keep in mind that the author also reveals the ultimate end goal of this administering of punishment or this chastising, and that is to make us holy, to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. That’s revealed in verse 10. So the end goal of the punishment is our sanctification, is our holiness, but that end goal of holiness doesn’t take away from the fact that there is a real suffering due to the Christian on account of wrongdoing, and God at times imposes that suffering to discharge that debt, and that’s what the author is getting at.
So we have revealed here this principle and initially justified Christian even after initial justification. A Christian can still incur a debt of temporal punishment due for past forgiven sin.
Cy Kellett:
I find that one so easy to believe that all of these, it just seems the easiest to believe, and-
Karlo Broussard:
Now keep in mind before lest there be any confusion for our listeners out there, that does not mean every time I suffer I’m being punished by God.
Cy Kellett:
Oh, no. Right.
Karlo Broussard:
Important point to make, because many people think, “Oh, I’m suffering. God must be punishing me.” No, sometimes God allows or permit suffering in this world that’s not directly imposed upon us by him, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Can God do that? Of course, but just because I’m suffering doesn’t mean he’s punishing me.
Cy Kellett:
All right. So principle number two is that there is a treasury of satisfactions of Christ and the saints. So in other words, it would be like a bank where you could take something out of it and pay that debt of suffering that I owe.
Karlo Broussard:
Basically, yeah. I mean, you’re getting at it. The catechism articulates the treasury in paragraphs 14-75 through 14-77. So I’ll just read a few excerpts here so we can try to get a good grasp on what we’re talking about.
In paragraph 1475, talking about the communion of saints, there’s a perennial link of charity that exists between the faithful on earth, those in heaven, and even those in purgatory. It identifies how within this perennial link of charity, within this communion of saints, there’s an abundant exchange of all good things where the holiness of one profits others well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. This is based upon St. Paul in first Corinthians 12, I think it’s 28, “One member rejoices, all rejoice. One member suffers, all suffer.” So there’s this perennial link between members of the mystical body of Christ.
Now in 1476, it says, “We also call the spiritual goods of the communion of the saints the church’s treasury. The treasury of the church is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ merits have before God.” Then in 1477, it states, “This treasury also includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints.” So it’s the infinite value of Jesus’s death on the cross and the satisfaction that he made.
Given this order of providence, the Catholic claim is that Christ wills that his member, the members of his mystical body, the saints, when they perform acts of charity in order them towards satisfaction for sin that the value, the satisfactory value of those good deeds, if they exceed what was required to discharge their debt of temporal punishment is with, put with the infinite value of Christ death on the cross, the satisfactory value of Christ death on the cross. Simply by way of this order of providence that Christ wills that Christians be able to participate in this redeeming activity. This expiation of sins for us as Christians with regard to the debt of temporal punishment.
So this is the treasury as the catechism talks, as the catechism defines it. So that’s the object of consideration of what we’re talking about.
Cy Kellett:
So could I practically add to that treasury by say, I go… I don’t know, say some poor person is begging and then I give them what they’re begging for, all right, so just out of love. I say, “Lord, I want to do this.” Can you add that to the treasury of things that could help people in purgatory?
Karlo Broussard:
Yes. We cannot quantify the amount of the satisfactory value of a good deed. If there is such a satisfactory value that goes beyond what is required to discharge debt of temporal punishment, then God will apply that to the church’s treasury. Now I don’t know that I can request that and ask God to accomplish that or to do that in order my good deed on condition that there is an extra satisfactory value in this good deed, “God, please apply it to the church’s treasury,” right?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
This is what we’re talking about. So the question now is, what is the supporting evidence for this?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
Well, here’s one thing to consider. Revelation chapter 14 verse 13 states, “And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.’ ‘Blessed indeed,’ says the Spirit, ‘that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them. The value of the good works of those who die in grace continues to exist…'” sorry, “‘that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them.'” That’s the end of the quote of Revelation 14:13.
Notice how their deeds follow them. The value of their good works follow them into the afterlife.
Cy Kellett:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Karlo Broussard:
So if there is satisfactory value for Christians in this life, which we’ve already shown by way of Hebrews 12:6, where we can undergo suffering to discharge a debt of temporal punishment, we’ve established that principle, well, if it is the case that there is a satisfactory value in my penitential actions and voluntarily embracing with love, any suffering that comes my way, if there’s a satisfactory value that exceeds the amount of temporal debt due for my past forgiven sin, that satisfactory value will follow me into the afterlife per Revelation chapter 14 verse 13.
So there we have a hint and implicit reference to the treasury of the saints that the value of the good deeds of the saints in this life carries over with them is taken with them into the afterlife. It’s not like they go to waste. That’s what we’re referring to the treasury of the saints.
Cy Kellett:
A value is only value if you can spend it, if you can do something with it.
Karlo Broussard:
That’s right, and so it remains with them. So now Revelation 14:13 doesn’t speak to the satisfactory value of the good deeds of the acts of charity, but at least we have this principle of the value of good deeds remaining with the saints in heaven.
Now the question is, what about the satisfactory value of these good deeds? We could appeal to Hebrews 12:6 again and reason through that and come to the conclusion that we’re going to have satisfactory value when we embrace suffering with charity, and that’s going to discharge the debt of temporal punishment. We could also appeal to Colossians 1:24, Cy, and I think this is an important text.
Cy Kellett:
Okay.
Karlo Broussard:
Here’s what St. Paul writes, “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake.” So there’s something in Paul’s sufferings that are going to contribute, something in Paul sufferings that’s going to contribute to others. “And in my flesh, I complete what is lacking in Christ afflictions for the sake of his body, that is the church.”
Cy Kellett:
Wow.
Karlo Broussard:
So now this is interesting because Paul says, “I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.” Let’s take a step back and ask the question, what could Paul possibly refer… What could possibly be lacking in Christ’s afflictions, right? Well, in order to understand that, in order to answer that, let’s ask another question. What did Christ afflictions accomplish? It accomplishes the expiation of sins. That’s what Christ redeeming act on the cross is for, to expiate our sins and those of the whole world, first John 2:2.
Okay, so now the question is, well, what could possibly be lacking in Christ afflictions relative to the expiation for sin? Now it can’t mean Christ death is lacking an expiating for the sin of the entire world and redeeming the whole entire human race. John 1:29, “Behold, the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world,” that can’t be what Paul is referring to because that requires infinite power. Nothing that we as finite creatures can do can expiate for the sin of the entire human race, okay?
Cy Kellett:
Yeah.
Karlo Broussard:
Now we also know that it cannot be referring to expiating for sin relative to the eternal debt of punishment prior to coming to Christ, because that requires infinite power. Nothing we can do as finite creatures to expiate for our own sins that incur the eternal debt of punishment, okay? So it can’t be referring to that.
It also, from a Catholic point of view, can’t be referring to the expiation or the remission of debt of punishment, whether eternal or temporal in baptism, because the church teaches that in baptism. When we’re initially justified in baptism, the full merits of Jesus’s death on the cross is applied to the individual such that all debt of punishment do for sin is completely remitted, both eternal and temporal. So from a Catholic point of view, we would say, “St. Paul can’t be referring to that.”
So he must be… Now notice everything so far in these options or things pertaining to that state before initial justification concerning the expiation of sin. So he must be referring to expiation of sin subsequent to initial justification-
Cy Kellett:
I see.
Karlo Broussard:
… after we’re initially justified, okay?
Cy Kellett:
Right, right.
Karlo Broussard:
So what are some possible options here? Well, he can’t be referring to the eternal debt incurred by mortal sin after you’re baptized, after you’re initially justified.
Cy Kellett:
I can’t add anything to that.
Karlo Broussard:
Because only Christ can take away that eternal debt. So the only option that’s left for us to make sense out of this text or this passage from St. Paul is the remaining debt of temporal punishment due for sin subsequent to initial justification. Because it’s a debt of temporal punishment, that’s something that we as finite creatures moved by grace can cooperate with God and to discharge, because it’s of a temporal nature. It’s not eternal. That’s something.
So scripture talks about how faithfulness and loyalty. I think it’s in Proverbs, loyalty atones for sins, right?
Cy Kellett:
Yes.
Karlo Broussard:
St. Peter’s going to talk about how love covers a multitude of sins. Well, love can not only cover sins with regard to eternal punishment when Christ infuses love within us, but acts of love that our will is involved in can also cover the temporal consequences of sin, right? So when Paul says, “I complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ,” what is the suffering of Christ relative to? Expiation for sin. What could Paul possibly be referring to relative to the expiation of sin? That is discharging the debt of temporal punishment. So in other words, the bottom line is Paul sees his suffering as having satisfactory value.
Cy Kellett:
Yes, right.
Karlo Broussard:
In other words, the value of his suffering can be ordered toward discharging a debt of temporal punishment. Notice how Paul says he’s not offering up his suffering for a particular individual, he sets for the church. So he’s ordering the satisfactory value of his suffering to the whole of the church. In other words, the value of his suffering belongs to the entirety of the church, such that the entirety of the church can benefit from this suffering that he is enduring for the whole of the body.
Cy Kellett:
Wow.
Karlo Broussard:
Now as Aquinas argue, Cy, the one in charge of the whole of the body has the authority to dispense to the body, the merits in the treasury that Paul has contributed to. So that of course resides in the leaders of this body, the Pope, the vicar of Christ. Of course, bishops share, other bishops share in that authority as well as dispensing the goods of this treasury of the satisfactory merits of Christ and the saints.
Cy Kellett:
So that gets us to principle three then.
Karlo Broussard:
That gets to principle three.
Cy Kellett:
That the church is able to dispense to the faithful on earth the satisfactory value of the good works performed by the saints in this life.
Karlo Broussard:
Precisely, because the Pope and the bishops united with him have charged over the whole body, the mystical body here on earth charged over the body and therefore having that jurisdiction can dispense the goods to members of the body.
Cy Kellett:
So that means that they can say, “Look, you’ll receive an indulgence if you do this.”
Karlo Broussard:
That is correct. So the Pope, at least for us here on earth can say, “If you perform this good deed, this act of charity with the prescribed conditions, that we’re going to apply the satisfactory value from the treasury of the church of Christ and the saints to you such that it will discharge either some or all debt of temporal punishment due to past forgiven sin.” That’s because the church has the authority to bind and loose. The church has jurisdiction over the members of Christ mystical body on earth.
Now with regard to the departed souls in purgatory, the application is different. The church can prescribe a certain good deed to perform as an indulgence for the departed soul. The church rather than directly applying the treasury of the church to individuals on earth because it has direct jurisdiction over the members of Christ body on the earth with regard to the departed souls, the church implores God by way of intercession, that the merits of Christ and the saints can be applied to the souls in purgatory such that their debt of temporal punishment could be discharged or remitted in this case.
Cy Kellett:
It’s all a really good deal, basically. I mean, the fact that Christ doesn’t leave us on our own in anything, even in the temporal satisfactions.
Karlo Broussard:
Amen, that we are able to benefit one another. We’re not left alone in this journey with Christ. Christ has willed that we be members of his mystical body, such that the holiness of one can benefit the holiness of another. Not just by way of example, but even in this mystical way, such that the value of their charitable deeds when it has a satisfactory value to it can actually be applied to me and to you. Only because, as St. Thomas Aquinas points out, due to the bond of charity. It’s only because of the bond of charity that one member of the mystical body of Christ and the satisfactory value of his or her charitable acts can be applied to another.
Now I can’t perform a good deed that’s going to merit for you like your eternal destination, your eternal life, right? That’s something I cannot benefit you for.
Cy Kellett:
Right.
Karlo Broussard:
With regard to satisfaction for sin and discharging that debt of temporal punishment due for sin, that is something that the bond of charity allows one member of the body of Christ to help with for another member of the body of Christ.
Cy Kellett:
Particularly good that we are talking about this in the month of November, because November is the month of praying for the dead. In this economy of this treasury, the more we participate in that, the more help we can be, even maybe to people we don’t know-
Karlo Broussard:
Amen to that.
Cy Kellett:
… and won’t know until heaven.
Karlo Broussard:
Yeah. So for us to gain an indulgence for the departed or at least to pray for them, these are acts of charity. It’s an exchange of the spiritual goods that constitute the treasury of the church.
Cy Kellett:
Thank you, Karlo.
Karlo Broussard:
Thank you, Cy.
Cy Kellett:
The fact is indulgences are really just a bad fit for the modern world, which is individualistic. Even the Christianity of the modern world is individualistic. What indulgences tell us is we are completely interdependent. We’re dependent on God and we are interdependent on one another. The graces of God are mediated to us by other persons, and we need them.
This is bad news in a certain sense for those of us who are committed to being individualist, but once you get overall that individualism we can realize what a great gift God has given us. We can assist one another. Even in things like, I don’t know, overcoming sin and being purified of sin, we can make that process easier for one another, and that’s what the church does in sharing indulgences.
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All right, that wraps it up for Focus this time. I’m Cy Kellett your host. We’ll see you again, God willing, right here.